Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club

[Michael J. Moss]

Quaker Ridge only allows them I believe in the afternoon, or when there are no caddies available.


Bedford Golf and Tennis in Bedford, NY, a cool Devereux Emmet course, allows trollies.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's a report from my survey of the Philly area "old line" and some "new line" clubs:

Applebrook- allows use of their fleet of pull/push carts after 3pm with a charge of $12.
Cricket- "       "  "  after 2pm with a $10 charge
Stonewall- not available as they have an excellent caddie program.
Fieldstone- "     "     "
Whitemarsh- "    "    "
Bidermann- no restrictions on the use of pull/push carts. Members can bring their own or use the club's for $7.
Sunnybrook-   "     "     "  $10 charge
Gulph Mills- waiting for Tom Paul's call
Wilmington- waiting for return call from pro

Whitemarsh has had discussions but are concerned that the use of pull/push carts would destroy their excellent caddie program.

[John Blain]

You can add the following clubs from upstate NY that allow push carts:

Oak Hill CC
The Country Club of Rochester
Monroe Golf Club
Crag Burn Club

The only club I can think of that DOESN'T allow them up here is the CC of Buffalo which has a caddie program.

Ekwanok CC in Vermont allows them late afternoon.

I can't imagine a club not allowing them because it doesn't "fit an image." And people wonder why private clubs are struggling and the game is still perceived by many as a stuffy sport.

[John Kavanaugh]

No dogs please. Get a personality and you be beating human companionship off with a stick.

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

Dogs are OK, at least they are generally better behaved than many a golfer I have seen on a golf course or on here come to think of it. Also after a round they are sometimes better company than some you meet in the pub.

John, John, John, where has that dog gone, ah there he is all floppy ears, and with that long tongue a lesbian would kill for. Remind you of anyone, John  

Melvyn

[John Kavanaugh]

M,

I know that I am flawed in my non love of dogs but the cat is out of the bag on their behavior.  How am I supposed to expect a society where people no longer teach their children how to respect proper public decorum to teach their dogs such?  I can appreciate people who are proud of their wives or children and dress them up to put them on public display.  I will even gladly throw them a look or comment of appreciation for their efforts.  Who knows, one day they may be a productive member of society themselves.  What I don't need is a Toddlers and Tiaras like parade of trained and groomed dogs marching up the fairway as commands waft from holler to hill.  I promise you it would only be a matter of time before Mitzi and Chip have their poodle groomed with a Pro V on the end of its tail.  It just won't work in America.

[Tim Martin]

M,

I know that I am flawed in my non love of dogs but the cat is out of the bag on their behavior.  How am I supposed to expect a society where people no longer teach their children how to respect proper public decorum to teach their dogs such?  I can appreciate people who are proud of their wives or children and dress them up to put them on public display.  I will even gladly throw them a look or comment of appreciation for their efforts.  Who knows, one day they may be a productive member of society themselves.  What I don't need is a Toddlers and Tiaras like parade of trained and groomed dogs marching up the fairway as commands waft from holler to hill.  I promise you it would only be a matter of time before Mitzi and Chip have their poodle groomed with a Pro V on the end of its tail.  It just won't work in America.

I have to line up behind John on this one. Although I like some dogs it`s golf and not hunting, right?

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

Is this from your Facebook page - is that your dog (well I think its a dog) or is that you in your own Golf Bag?



Melvyn

Please do not tell me where you put that tongue, too much info!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

M,

I don't have a Facebook page and I don't wear camo.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Wayne,

In Spain and France, trollies are usually free at private clubs and can be used at any time (very similar to the UK).

Also, in most clubs where pulling a trolley may be to harsh due to elevation changes, heat, etc. electric trolleys are also available for a fee.  This takes out the strain of pulling while still allowing people to walk. There is no mandatory cart policies in Spain, France or Portugal (that I am aware of)

In public courses trollies can be used at a fee (both manual and electric).

Regards,
 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Alfonso,

Unfortunately, golf in the USA is not generally regarded as a walking experience and hasn't been so since the 1950s  as the advent of the gas/electric powered golf car was popularized by President Eisenhower. These devices are revenue generators for private and public course owners. The courses that we're talking about are private and not in financial distress.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Steve,

I am a member of two private clubs in Spain both of which have no financial distress whatsoever. In both of them the situation is as I described it. It is up to the golfer to choose if he wants to carry, pull, push an electric trolley or drive depending on his desire. I think that is the common attitude in Europe and a particular way of playing is not imposed on members.

I will generally use an electric trolley in one of the clubs (hilly) and a pull trolley in another (flat). I never carry and I only use a cart when it is extremely hot (it gets over 100 in Madrid in the summer months).

Regards,

[JMEvensky]

Alfonso,maybe it's not so much a question of financial distress as it is budgetary.Over here,many clubs have used the revenue from electric carts to subsidize other areas.Those clubs have become dependent on the cart revenue.Anything,pull carts or caddies,that might take away that revenue would be catastrophic.

A lot of members will like pull carts up until they get an operating assessment due to the drop in cart revenue.

[Brent Hutto]

I'll regret chiming in on one of these threads but here's my two cents.

It's hard to believe I'm the only private-club member with the attitude that I want to play golf however and whenever I prefer to play it and I'm willing to pay my fair share of the money needed by the club. I don't care if they charge me one dollar a month as dues and call the rest of it "cart fees" or "green fees" or if they call it all dues and say that "cart fees" and "green fees"are included.

I don't want a caddie. I don't want a riding cart. I'd probably like having push carts provided by the club but I'm just as happy bringing my own. And I don't want to shirk any of my financial responsibility as a member. It's all good.

How in world do clubs arrive at a point where they would tell someone like me to bugger off and go be a member somewhere else just because I prefer to walk the course and haul my clubs on my shoulder or a push cart, depending on the situation? It's insane.

At a private club, riding carts do not produce revenue. The revenue all comes from the pockets of the members. An accounting fiction which makes it appear that money flows from the carts would seem a first push down the slippery slope that leads to telling members they can not play without using a cart, either always or at certain desirable times.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Brent

Good for you.

Perhaps I may go further and make a list of Name & Shame clubs that have a down on Walking.

I would happily argue with their Membership that they are not playing the Royal & Ancient Game of Golf but some bastard derivative of the game and under the trades description listing should not be allowed to call themselves a golf club – think that might get them thinking.

Proving that no matter how much money you have, one can still be caught at counterfeiting od selling a fake game to the members, ops a fake Golf club, questions if one wants to be associated with such a place.

That will sort the men out from the boys.

Melvyn

[JMEvensky]

Brent,I'm pretty certain you know that golf is rarely the black hole it's presumed at a private club.It's usually all the other stuff.

The problems began when some club first had the epiphany that the members weren't really members so much as revenue sources.It's been downhill ever since.

The most equitable way to do it would be to just total up all the year's expenses and send everyone a bill on 1 January.I doubt many members would like this approach however.

[Mark Saltzman]

Brent,

Well said.  I completely agree.  Mandatory carts, mandatory caddies - I don't like 'em, at least not for members.

One of my first experiences with private golf was at a very nice course in the Atlanta area.  As an unaccompanied guest I had to take a caddie - fine with me.  The caddie told me caddies were mandatory, even for members, if they play before 2PM.  He said, "can you believe that some of the members actually wait to play until 2PM?"  Doing a bit of number crunching in my head, I figured I played at that time about 100 rounds per year at my home club, and at $70 a pop, that would be an additional $7000 expense - almost double my annual dues.

Caddies and caddie programs are great.  I just don't get mandatory caddies for members. 

[JMEvensky]

Caddies and caddie programs are great.  I just don't get mandatory caddies for members. 

I agree.Unfortunately,at all but a small percentage of clubs,you can't have one without the other.

Caddie programs have become expensive luxuries that most don't want to pay for.

[Carl Nichols]

At a private club, riding carts do not produce revenue. The revenue all comes from the pockets of the members. An accounting fiction which makes it appear that money flows from the carts would seem a first push down the slippery slope that leads to telling members they can not play without using a cart, either always or at certain desirable times.

But don't forget about the pro and the extent to which cart use may affect his/her income.  If the pro is an independent contractor who owns or leases the carts, having made the financial investment to do so, he/she makes money -- from the members' pockets, of course -- when carts are used.  Obviously you can restructure the pro-club relationship and substitute cart income with more direct payments from the Club, but I think that pros often operate under relatively long-term contracts, so often a club has to either take some action to restructure or wait for the deal to expire.  Thus while it's always the case that carts don't produce revenue for the club [except maybe in the case of outings], sometimes they do produce revenue for the pro, which can create potentially negative incentives.   

[Melvyn Morrow]

Carl

Just goes to show that golf is just about money. Pity that the games has lost its identity, not knowing if it’s the genuine article or just a bastardised copy of once a wonderful game.

The Pros should concentrate on the Game, actually touching on GCA, trying to explain to old and young alike that golf is a thinking game that requires the golfer to read the signs, be it in the landscape, weather conditions of GCA. But alas as we know on this site GCA is just three letters that are meaningless to the majority of players.

We need to focus on the game, how its played and the effect on the course, not forcing changes because it’s good for one’s bank balance. Is this really what golf has become over there?

Melvyn

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,
I suspect here in Oz the problem would be getting trolleys/push carts dis-approved.

As Brett Morrissy said early on in this thread,
 "Here in Australia - pull trolleys are the norm. Carts (are) generally for mostly resort type courses.
Most clubs allow members to use their own, or supply them for a small charge $5-$10."

Even on the resort courses where the motorised cart is king there are pull trolleys available for a nominal fee. It is a very rare occurrence that a motorised cart is mandatory.

The club I belong to, Indooroopilly Golf Club (private with limited public access), makes no demands on what mode of bag-toting is employed but, as is normal in Australia, there is no caddy program.
The club leases a large fleet of motorised carts. There is no doubt that it provides quite a substantial flow of cash and is now a teat that the club cannot spit out. The problem is compounded by the fact that an even greater generator of income are the "corporate days". I am sure that without motorised cart availability enquiries to hold corporate days would evaporate and a very profitable little earner would vanish. A distinct majority of members are disappointed with the impact, literally and metaphorically, that the motorised cart has on the course in terms of cart paths and compaction of turf but there will be no turning back.

Steve S...you say "....golf in the USA is not generally regarded as a walking experience and hasn't been so since the 1950s  as the advent of the gas/electric powered golf car was popularized........".  Is this also the case for your municipal and public courses?

Cheers Colin

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Colin,

Most public courses permit walking,some with restrictions, and provide the pull/push carts for an additional fee. Some exceptions are the difficult to walk mountain type courses or most resort courses where carts are mandatory. Of course, one can walk while the partner in the cart drives in those places.

The most difficult part of the golf culture here is to see teenagers and younger adults  using gas/electric golf cars. Most people here don't see walking as part of the golfing experience.

[Kris Shreiner]

Some interesting points and takes on power buggies and trolleys, powered and otherwise. Those that don't wish to take caddies or have how they play limited can join clubs without any restrictive playing-policies. I'm not a fan of having to be forced to do anything. The goal should be to provide options of quality and allow players the choice to have the experience.

Some of it is down to club culture. We as individuals can chose in the end. NO ONE is forced to join a club that requires certain things. Many want to join a club but then have a la cart options. That's not generally how it works.

The trend in America to play buggy golf has more to do with the marketing and perception, fostered by the cart companies and the cozy sponsorship relationships with the influencing golf organizations, than anything else...besides laziness(sadly a MAJOR factor). Quite a few of us Yanks still walk, even youth. For a youngster, tooling around in a buggy is fun and cool...of course they'll opt for that...unless THEY(not mommy and daddy money) have to pay for it. The NEED to play out of a cart quickly fades when there is an extra cost attached to them golfing that way.


In the end, we all make choices. Whatever your way, play away!


Cheers,
Kris

[Roger Wolfe]

Yes… one of my favorite topics is back for its quarterly (or is it bi-monthly?) discussion.  Brent Hutto nailed it… it’s about money.  Push carts are great and allow you to walk without carrying your bag or paying big bucks for a caddy.  I let my 6 year old son push my cart (which is simply wonderful), chip and putt.

I often preach (to anyone who will listen) my “no cart fee” theory.  Walk or ride anytime… it’s up to you at no additional charge.  The flip side is that you need to take your cart revenue and divide it up among the membership and call it “dues.”  We bring in about $150k in cart revenue (at $14 + tax per 18 holes).  Divide the 150k by 500 members and it comes to $25 per month per member.  Carts become an operating expense instead of a revenue source.

Imagine a world without the following:
1. No walking restrictions ever.
2. Pros freed up to assist members… not chase down cart fees.
3. Walk the front… ride the back if you are feeling bad (with no financial penalty)
4. No twilight cart fee issues.
5. Unlimited push cart usage.

I cannot understand why noone has tried this out.  I think the pros I list above far outweigh the cons (heavy cart usage, late cart attendant nights, higher dues for the light user).  It’s something to think about! 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I agree with the comments about US clubs becoming dependent on electric cart revenue. I have plenty of greens and budget experience to pretend otherwise. However, it is like a government agency mindset. I is perceived need not real.budgets can be adjusted and other cost changed to allow for this if the board wants it too.