How good WAS Yale?

[Tim_Weiman]

On another thread GeoffreyC kindly gave us a preview of George Bahto's upcoming book.

Having waited for George's book for years, I should probably just be a little more patient.  But, I couldn't help thinking about how challenging Yale must have in its early years.

Any thoughts on how good the course was when it opened?  Where it ranked?  How difficult or unique it was?  Which hole posed the greatest challenge given the technology of the day?

Finally, has any modern architect built a par 5 with the same degree of difficulty as #18 (adjusting for technology)?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Matt Ward
How do you evaluate the routing of Yale?

[George Bahto]

On the other thread the question was raised about how good Yale was and how recognized it was at the time for being a great course:

Macdonald said Lido would forever be "the" tribute to Raynor unless Yale would surpasses it in time ..........  CB wrote his book in 1926 and 27 (assuming he was not such a novice and as slow as I've been) - published it in 1928 which was not long after Yale was done if indeed it was totally complete at the time.

As Shack and Dan Wexler and others who have researched the old magazines know, there were many articles written about the course at the time and over the next few years.

Raynor (and Macdonald) designed two courses for Yale - the present course, of course, was the only one built and it cost about 4 times what a normal course in difficult terrain cost at the time so it may have been that the "option" fairway on 18, if it was ever meant to be an option (still can't "figger" it out), may have just been a $$ problem (this, assuming that was the last hole built).

Anyhow, it would have been great if it was built - I'm really not sure it would "work" properly but it would be a fun play.

Hey, the normal play is certainly no bargain .... unless you're John Daly who it is said Drive and 6 iron on the Yale 18th!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
Having seen the construction photos of Yale I could only say
that it was probably an excellent course when it opened. It ain't bad now, either.  
 It would have to be ranked in anyone's first decile, no worse than second decile, on the day of it's opening. I believe conditioning is the main reason it is rated where it is today. If restored to original shape it would even jump higher.
I think that the scale it's built on is one of it's most unique features and the level of difficulty then must have been brutish. It's still a bear today.
Number 18 could not have yielded many pars 75 years ago but number 10 would have been no picnic, either.
I don't know if there have been any modern 5's as difficult as 18 but there wouldn't be any need to worry about adjusting for technology.

[Tim_Weiman]

George:

Driver and six iron........do we need to make three shot holes 800 yards?

I know you have given the subject a lot of thought, but Yale seems deserving of the same kind of treatment Geoff put together on Cypress Point, i.e., lots of black and white from the opening day timeframe.

Yale did surpass Lido if mere survival is the test.  Fortunately, it never met the fate of Wexler's list, but it does seem to have disappeared for decades.

What went on there in both the pre and post World War II era?  Did the university understand what they had?  Is the course a victim of long term (not just recent) neglect?

[George Bahto]

"What went on there in both the pre and post World War II era?  Did the university understand what they had?  Is the course a victim of long term (not just recent) neglect?
[/quote]

Tim - first you have to understand that over the years and even today, the course is considered nothing more of a "recreational facility for the students, faculty and alums" - now once you’ve gotten beyond that we can continue      

In the early days there was little play and a lot was done to the course in-house with no direction from the administration or committees etc. Many changes were made, some good ........... this I can understand.

Now if this were “FOOTBALL” would we even be having this conversation?

The course was modified in a lot of areas: greens were moved on two holes; bunkers were covered over, undulations and features were removed or altered - the usual things that have
occurred to so many important classic courses if not under some sort of knowledgeable oversight.

Fortunately her great set of green surfaces, for the most part, have survived (?) ........ (aside from a couple horror stories). I detail it in my book , which by the way, deals with the ORIGINAL INTENT OF THE ARCHITECTS, not what is on their courses today -  too many alien footprints.

Over the years the Yale course was made, in today’s vernacular, more golfer “friendly” - yuk! Unfortunately, it continues!!!!!!!

It was left to survive with little supervision with respect to maintaining the originality. It was thought of as “just a golf course” - not much different today!

The problem is “we” look at it differently than they do.

I considered rewriting my Yale chapter ..... in the past tense .... but, in deference to the course design, Seth Raynor and CBM, I recently thought better of it.

Personally, I’m tired of banging the drum at people who have so little understanding for what they have and so little appreciate for maintaining the originality of this great classic.  

Hey, it’s their course.

Pardon the bitter tone but I’ve been had - I have a bad taste in my mouth - (I need Dr. Katz badly - some guys never learn) - too many egos. My efforts will be better appreciated elsewhere.                            

[Paul Richards]

George:

My impressions of Yale mirror yours.

Underneath, Yale is absolutely wonderful.

It's just that over the years, it has been turned into something
it was not.

And to me, that's sad.

[Tim_Weiman]

George:

Sorry to bring up a topic that might not be a lot of fun for you.

Growing up in a Princeton family and taught to "hate Yale", I nonetheless have some understanding of the environment in New Haven and what you were up against.

Still, I'm surprised that no Ernie Ransome like figure emerged among the Yale alumni or that such a person might not have been able to have a constructive influence.

A few years ago I spent a week in Ireland with a friend from Yale who recalled how privileged he felt being able to play the course as an undergraduate.  I'll have to ask him why a "Friends of Yale Golf" committee was either never formed or able to do much good.

[George Bahto]

Tim: we had "the man" and I was behind the scenes for a quite while but what started out as pretty true
restoration or as much as could be expected, seems to have gotten off on a whole other angle.

[Tim_Weiman]

George,

Okay.  Maybe my Dad was right to teach me to hate Yale, but deep down I think my love of what CB & Co did exceeds my university loyalties.  It this point I'm just looking forward to your book.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

Like you, I too am puzzled by the lack of interest in restoring the course.

I am puzzled, why, with all the great alumni, and ability to raise funds for a project, none have stepped forward to take charge and restore this gem, especially when there appears to be a wealth of knowledge and committed individuals to assist with this endeavor.

Geoffry C,

I told you this would happen !  
Or rather, I told you, this wouldn't happen, unfortunately.

[GeoffreyC]

What can I possibly add to what George said?

From the photos I have seen it was GREAT aand certainly UNIQUE in the world of golf.

Again Yale 1934