Sand Hills vs Dismal River S.A.P.D. #9 pg. 5

[Mac Plumart]

How long is that carry at DR?

Georege, I just played it this weekend and I lasered it just for you.

Middle tees...bail out area left 135 yards.  Middle of fairway 170.  Far right side 185.  The CJ line 200.

It is pretty easy to make the carry with lots of choicess.

[Chris Johnston]

How long is that carry at DR?

Georege, I just played it this weekend and I lasered it just for you.

Middle tees...bail out area left 135 yards.  Middle of fairway 170.  Far right side 185.  The CJ line 200.

It is pretty easy to make the carry with lots of choicess.

Mac, you destroyed #2 yesterday.  Nice Drive!

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 3 is another good match, though there is a clear winner in my mind... JK is it time yet?

[Chris Johnston]

Hole 3 is another good match, though there is a clear winner in my mind... JK is it time yet?

Salz - I think both 3 and 4 have clear winners and are very easy. 

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 3 is another good match, though there is a clear winner in my mind... JK is it time yet?

Salz - I think both 3 and 4 have clear winners and are very easy. 

Yeah, but how about 3 from the tips at each course? 3 from 200 at DR is a very difficult hole.

[Chris Johnston]

Hole 3 is another good match, though there is a clear winner in my mind... JK is it time yet?

Salz - I think both 3 and 4 have clear winners and are very easy.  

Yeah, but how about 3 from the tips at each course? 3 from 200 at DR is a very difficult hole.

It certainly is but, then again, few play the tips at Dismal.  Both are stout from the very back.

[John Kavanaugh]

Interestingly enough both the 3rd holes are par 3's.  I'm not going to fall for the adage that just because the 3rd at Sand Hills is longer it is more difficult.  I find the holes 3rd at Sand Hills and Dismal equally challenging.

The fourth at Dismal is a birdie hole, no question about it.  The fourth at Sand Hills is a perfect par 4 where birdie would be something to write home about.  Clearly the fourth at Sand Hills is the more difficult hole.

The match, in my eyes stands:

1. Dismal
2. Dismal
3. Even
4. Sand Hills

Dismal 1up

Please note that I should recuse myself from this discussion because I now realize that I played Sand Hills in no wind with the greens slower than normal.  I really don't know what the hell I am talking about.  So, that being said, we will do 5 and 6 tomorrow.

[Terry Lavin]

Please note that I should recuse myself from this discussion because I now realize that I played Sand Hills in no wind with the greens slower than normal.  I really don't know what the hell I am talking about.  So, that being said, we will do 5 and 6 tomorrow.

If I adopted your recusal standard ("I don't know what the hell I'm talking about."), I'd have precious few cases to decide.

You might be "on" to something!

[Chris Johnston]

Sand Hills #3 is a very long and challenging 3 par.  Dismal is 40 yards shorter - both are exposed and require a carry but Dismal has a wide belt of fescue surround.  3 green at Sand Hills is amazing with a 2 story spine from top left to bottom right, but with the speeds, is an easy three putt.  Apples to apples, Dismal's +/-150 yards versus Sand Hills 200 yards, green complexity, and speed.  Sand Hills is far more difficult.  I hit 9 iron into #3 at Dismal yesterday on a minimum wind day - pin was in the front 1/3. 

It is a real accomplishment for me to finish the first 4 at Sand Hills at +2.  If I start at +2 at Dismal after 4, I am very disappointed.

For me:
1. Sand Hills
2. Sand Hills
3. Sand Hills
4  Sand Hills

Dismal isn't easy by any means, and there are a few close calls, but the opening holes at Sand Hills are more difficult for a 9 handicap.

[Mike Benham]

Please note that I should recuse myself from this discussion  ...

This exercise confuses me, why not wait until the DRD (Dismal River Doak) course is completed as I'm sure the treehouse would prefer that comparison.

And isn't Chris Johnston the most experienced at the two courses (IIRC, a member at SH too), likely playing both courses in a variety of conditions?

[John Kavanaugh]

This exercise confuses me, why not wait until the DRD (Dismal River Doak) course is completed as I'm sure the treehouse would prefer that comparison.

And isn't Chris Johnston the most experienced at the two courses (IIRC, a member at SH too), likely playing both courses in a variety of conditions?

Mike,

Dismal River Doak will not be completed until 2013.  The Speaker of the House just played both Dismal River and Sand Hills.  I started this thread because when I heard he had an outstanding round I thought it had to be at Sand Hills from the up tees.  I was wrong and wondered why.

Chis Johnston is indeed the most experienced and I value his opinion which is different than mine.  What I have most enjoyed is Mark Saltzman's contribution considering he played the tips at Dismal. 

Look, we have cut this discussion to four days a week to give other people a chance to start more interesting threads.  Boy, what a success that has proven to be.

[Eric Smith]

This exercise confuses me, why not wait until the DRD (Dismal River Doak) course is completed as I'm sure the treehouse would prefer that comparison.

Mike,

It shouldn't be confusing at all. John started the thread hoping to flesh out which of THESE TWO courses is more difficult, in a hole by hole comparison.

[Charlie Goerges]

How long is that carry at DR?

Georege, I just played it this weekend and I lasered it just for you.

Middle tees...bail out area left 135 yards.  Middle of fairway 170.  Far right side 185.  The CJ line 200.

It is pretty easy to make the carry with lots of choicess.

Mac, you destroyed #2 yesterday.  Nice Drive!

Whoa, who was the big stick on 2 Saturday?

Oh and I figured out how to play 1 as well, you just need to rip a drive with a slight draw at the left half of the mound in the fairway and run that thing down to the hundred yard marker. Easy peasy.

[Mark Saltzman]

Interestingly enough both the 3rd holes are par 3's.  I'm not going to fall for the adage that just because the 3rd at Sand Hills is longer it is more difficult.  I find the holes 3rd at Sand Hills and Dismal equally challenging.

John,

I can't agree with you on this one either. 

First a couple of pictures:

Dismal River, Hole 3: Par 3, 150ish Yards (photo taken from 200ish yard back tees) - if you look very closely, the pin is tucked just over the front bunker




Sand Hills, Hole 3: Par 3, 205 Yards

Tee View:





From back of green:




The tee shot at Dismal River is very scary the first time around.  A severe run-off short, a very deep bunker right and some obvious and severe green contouring put a lot of pressure on this short-iron shot.  But, at the end of the day, this is still an 8-iron for most players and the green as a target is plenty big.  Furthermore, the contouring on the green more often will help the better player than hurt him.  The green is split into three distinct sections, front-left, front-right and back.  Each front portion is a mini-bowl... good shots are rewarded with a short putt, bad shots will have a difficult putt/chip to get the ball close in the bowl.  But, as I said, it is a short-iron and these bowls more often help than hurt.

For the first time player the tee shot at SH is not intimidating.  The green is deep and wide and the slope to the left will help the player get the ball on the green.  What is impossible to comprehend is the severity of the slope of the 3rd green... like Chris said, the left side is many, many feet higher than the right.  Hit your tee shot too far left and get it stuck in the tall grass, there is zero chance of even chipping the ball onto the green.  Leave it just short and you have a chip that could break 25 feet. A front-right pin is gettable, but anything else is a very difficult 3.  I'm sure many people have hit what they thought were pretty good tee shots and then pretty good chips and walked off the hole with 5 or X, and two-halves of what used to be a putter.

Oh, and it is impossible to cast length aside.  Dismal is an 8-iron, SH into the prevailing (I think) wind is a hybrid or 3-wood for most.  That is a big difference, period.

Sand Hills is the harder hole.


Now, if we want to compare the 200 yard tees at each course, my opinion is reversed and I think Dismal is the harder hole.

C&C designed the 3rd green at SH to accept fairway wood shots.  That slope on the left can be used to kill a 3-wood and have it kick onto the green.  The green is also wide-open in front allowing shots to come up short or run onto the green.  The same is not true of the 3rd at Dismal.  I played it a bit downwind, and 4-iron in hand I wasn't sure how I was going to carry the slope/bunker short of the green and still have my ball stay on the firm green.  The aforementioned contours, which will collect balls toward the pin, will (I think) often repel them when the green is approached with a 4-iron instead of an 8-iron.  And, as I said before, if on the wrong portion of the green at DR, it is a tough two-putt.

From the tips, DR has the harder third.

But, since we're talking about the squares at DR, I have it:

Hole 1: DR
Hole 2: SH
Hole 3: SH

SH 1 UP

...Hole 4 coming when I have a few minutes

[Chris Johnston]

How long is that carry at DR?

Georege, I just played it this weekend and I lasered it just for you.

Middle tees...bail out area left 135 yards.  Middle of fairway 170.  Far right side 185.  The CJ line 200.

It is pretty easy to make the carry with lots of choicess.

Mac, you destroyed #2 yesterday.  Nice Drive!

Whoa, who was the big stick on 2 Saturday?

Oh and I figured out how to play 1 as well, you just need to rip a drive with a slight draw at the left half of the mound in the fairway and run that thing down to the hundred yard marker. Easy peasy.

Charlie, to qualify for a "nice drive, you cannot hit it further than these old eyes can see! You certainly did that.

Nice to have you and everyone out!

[Tim Martin]

This exercise confuses me, why not wait until the DRD (Dismal River Doak) course is completed as I'm sure the treehouse would prefer that comparison.

Mike,

It shouldn't be confusing at all. John started the thread hoping to flesh out which of THESE TWO courses is more difficult, in a hole by hole comparison.

Eric-Agreed. I have not played either course and am very much enjoying this thread. The photos help to provide some contrast for those that have not been lucky enough to experience DR and/or SH.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have trouble with the elevation change on the 3rd at Dismal. It is disguised by the gunch hole in front of the green. Seems to play one half club longer than the yardage.

[Chris Johnston]

I have trouble with the elevation change on the 3rd at Dismal. It is disguised by the gunch hole in front of the green. Seems to play one half club longer than the yardage.

Agreed on the 1/2 club longer.

But...I hit driver into SHGD #3 this summer due to wind.  Can't imagine that ever happening at Dismal #3.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have trouble with the elevation change on the 3rd at Dismal. It is disguised by the gunch hole in front of the green. Seems to play one half club longer than the yardage.

Agreed on the 1/2 club longer.

But...I hit driver into SHGD #3 this summer due to wind.  Can't imagine that ever happening at Dismal #3.

Yea, if anything is missing at Dismal it is the driver worthy par 3. Maybe someday.

[Eric Smith]

Yea, if anything is missing at Dismal it is the driver worthy par 3. Maybe someday.

Watching the way both you and Chris routinely handle #8, Dismal already has a driver worthy par 3.

[Brad Wilbur]

The very back right pin location on #3 (DR) was a pretty small target to hit last weekend.  Maybe it says something about skill level when one puts it in that small area, but the pin isn't there anymore.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 4 comparison is obvious, SH is the more difficult hole.  Using John's implied scale, the implied score for each is probably 4.5 (though I played 4 at SH 4-3-3-4!).

Sand Hills 2UP

Dismal River, Hole 4: Par 5, 500 Yards (photo from 580 yard back tees)




Approach




From behind





Sand Hills, Hole 4: Par 4, 475ish Yards




From the 420 Yard Square Tees




Approach




Massive Blowout Left of Green




From 5th Tee

[John Kavanaugh]

One of the last times I played the 4th at Dismal I hit my second shot into the cattle trough. I took it upon myself to play it as a water hazard. I can not recall how it was marked.

[Chris Johnston]

One of the last times I played the 4th at Dismal I hit my second shot into the cattle trough. I took it upon myself to play it as a water hazard. I can not recall how it was marked.

I've done the same thing.  the only water on the course is a 12 foot circle! Plus you can drink the water from the windmill, right out of the Ogallala Aquifer!  I think Adam Clayman owns the aquifer.

Wonder how John wil rate the 5th holes?  Can't wait.

[John Kavanaugh]

I seem to recall playing the tips on the 5th at Sand Hills because hitting over the 4th green is the preferred play. I even found a fairway bunker and had a relatively simple shot to the green.  Seems like another great straightforward hole.  Dissing on Sand Hills reminds me of the man who is married to a beautiful woman but still has a roaming eye.  Getting bored by perfection is part of the human condition.

The 5th at Dismal is perhaps the finest up hill par three ever built.  I love it so much that I have little trouble hitting the required shot while the majority of my playing partners go long. It is by definition a difficult hole.


The match, in my eyes stands:

1. Dismal
2. Dismal
3. Even
4. Sand Hills
5. Dismal

Dismal 2 up