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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Walker Cup Captain
« on: September 10, 2011, 01:42:33 PM »
I daresay that I will be accused of being a fuddy-duddy or an elitest, but for the life of me I find the election of Jim Holtgrieve to be the captain of the US Walker Cup team to be ill advised. I am well aware of his stellar amateur career and many wins in the Cup but he turned professional, did not have much success on the Senior Tour and then sought re-instatement as an amateur.

I am all for reinstatement of professional golfers to the unpaid ranks but not to represent, as Captain (which is in fact a great honor), our country's team in a showcase for amateurs.

Let the flak begin, I am wearing my body armor.

Bob
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 02:10:46 PM by Bob_Huntley »

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2011, 01:50:22 PM »
+1

Sam Morrow

Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2011, 01:56:35 PM »
I think the Walker Cup Captain should be a lifelong amateur, that's just me.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2011, 02:03:11 PM »
Bob:

I agree completely with your premise that a guy who grabs for the money at age 50, should not be captain of an amateur team.  Then again, the USGA itself has started grabbing for the money recently, too.  At least it's not the Lexus Walker Cup -- yet!

The only problem is -- are there enough viable candidates left who didn't try to cash in?  Can we name ten "distinguished career amateurs" who would be good candidates for captain?  Honestly, I have a hard time thinking of any at all.

Sam Morrow

Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2011, 02:05:35 PM »
Bob:

I agree completely with your premise that a guy who grabs for the money at age 50, should not be captain of an amateur team.  Then again, the USGA itself has started grabbing for the money recently, too.  At least it's not the Lexus Walker Cup -- yet!

The only problem is -- are there enough viable candidates left who didn't try to cash in?  Can we name ten "distinguished career amateurs" who would be good candidates for captain?  Honestly, I have a hard time thinking of any at all.

I was thinking about who would qualify and I think everyone I can think of has already been captain.

Downing Gray (with Bill McBride as his assistant)
Buddy Marucci
Spider Miller (I think that's his name)
Bob Hullender (This is horrible but I THINK he is still alive)

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2011, 02:33:16 PM »
Trip Kuehne and Buddy Marucci are the only two I can think of.  What other amateur that played in the Walker Cup over the last 15 years has not turned pro?

Perhaps they have no other choice?   Unless they start considering people who have made serious contributions to American golf other than players, the list is short.

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2011, 03:00:40 PM »
I think these are all valid points, but I'll take the other side.

The event is for players that are currently amateurs. I don't think there should be a second test of "purity of spirit" with regards to amateur golf for player or captain. If I'm not mistaken, several players will be professionals next week. Should they not be selected because of this? I don't think it should be different for the captain.

In this sport, there are no top level amateurs, per se. There are just those that aren't professional yet. It's pretty universally accepted that the best way to get really, really good at this game is to play in competitions that require amateur status; that's the training ground. So, players maintain amateur status so that they are eligible for those events, and when they feel they're ready, they go pro. If they could get paid and still compete in those events, they wood. If they don't think they have the game to make it as a pro, they keep playing as an amateur. But that's a tough road, because there's always a new batch of (future) professionals against which to compete.

Historically, the amateur game was for those that could afford to play without pay; the professional game for those that couldn't. To me, this is not golf's finest historical precedent. The present system gets away from that, because age and ability, not wealth, are the dividers between amateurs and pros. Retaining a bias against players that had at one time been professionals would support this idea that those that can play as long time amateurs are somehow "more pure," which is an idea with which I don't agree and which I think undermines the progress of the game.

Finally, there is the practical problem of a lack of available candidates if the USGA wanted life long amateurs. And, even a player such as Bobby Jones finally went pro, does that mean he sold out? I don't think so.

As I was watching today, I was thinking it'd be fun to watch a Walker Cup for Mid Ams. That would be full of players that were either never pros or had brief and unsuccessful professional careers. I think that event would be fun, and the golf might resemble the game that the rest of us mortals play.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2011, 03:03:43 PM »
Buddy Marucci and Downing Gray have been there a couple of times. "Spider" Miller's name is John. Bob Hullender is still alive, he won the super-seniors at Carlton Woods in May..

George Zahringer
Ken Bakst
Steve Smyers .
Kemp Richardson


Andy,
You should put an "if" between "even" and "a player" in your sentence about Jones.  ;)

« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 03:22:47 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2011, 03:14:09 PM »
Andy - most of the high-level mid-ams are former pros. And some them were fairly high-level pros too. I don't like that but it is impossible to avoid.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2011, 03:20:32 PM »
Definitely agree with Bob Huntley on naming a reinstated amateur as Captain.

Again,if you're looking for amateurs worthy of being Walker Cup Captain,I'll throw in Tim Jackson.He's got more USGA titles than anyone else I've noticed in this thread.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2011, 03:31:08 PM »
Bob, As Tom states, the old ways of Amateur golf is a dying breed. And sadly a dying creed. It all went out the window for me when that Colt Knost turned pro, rather than play the Masters as an Am. He's obviously been cursed for that.

I have no dog in your fight, but, from the info you provided, my thoughts went immediately to what would be best for the kids. Since those who can't, teach, perhaps his experiences will illustrate, to at least one of them, an alternate path, starting a new trend of future amateurs. Cycle repeats. With our money hungry societal morays, nowadays, and the huge money to chase after, I doub't it, but, it could happen.  ;)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2011, 03:38:12 PM »
Andy:

Jones never declaired that he was a Professional Golfer and the USGA never questioned his remit from Warner Bros. studio. Francis Ouimet was sent to the penalty bin for working in a sporting goods store. Both eventually captained the team, go figure.

Does one have to be a former great amateur player? I think not. One of the most succesful college programs ever, was headed by Coach Williams at Houston; he couldn't play a lick but could certainly lead and motivate.

Bob

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2011, 04:41:07 PM »
How can you leave out Tim Jackson? He won two Mid Ams ('94, '01) and has been low Amateur in the past two or three U.S. Senior Opens.

He will likely be the captain in 2015 assuming Holtgrieve also gets the nod in 2013 which is the way it has been going.

Trip Kuehne is also a lock to be captain and Nathan Smith as well.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2011, 04:45:27 PM »
From USGA's press release, "The USGA reinstated Holtgrieve's amateur status in 2007 after he played in 122 professional events."

That seems like a pretty committed professional career to me. Also, he was reinstated at the age of 60 when his money making prospects on the Senior Tour were pretty much over.  
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2011, 04:53:59 PM »
I daresay that I will be accused of being a fuddy-duddy or an elitest, but for the life of me I find the election of Jim Holtgrieve to be the captain of the US Walker Cup team to be ill advised. I am well aware of his stellar amateur career and many wins in the Cup but he turned professional, did not have much success on the Senior Tour and then sought re-instatement as an amateur.

I am all for reinstatement of professional golfers to the unpaid ranks but not to represent, as Captain (which is in fact a great honor), our country's team in a showcase for amateurs.

Let the flak begin, I am wearing my body armor.

Bob,

When I read the announcement, I felt the same way, I thought that the USGA made a significant mistake.

I was puzzled with respect to how they chose to appoint him.

I'd be curious to know what candidates didn't make the final cut.

Stay well


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2011, 05:31:33 PM »
I would vote for Pat Mucci and Tom Paul as co-captains.  USA would be unstoppable!

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2011, 06:41:15 PM »
From USGA's press release, "The USGA reinstated Holtgrieve's amateur status in 2007 after he played in 122 professional events."

That seems like a pretty committed professional career to me. Also, he was reinstated at the age of 60 when his money making prospects on the Senior Tour were pretty much over.  

It would seem that after that many pro tournaments and at the age of 60 you are pretty much "all in". I understand him chasing the money but his status should be cemented as a pro regardless of the waiting period to regain amateur status.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2011, 09:36:44 PM »
Blayne Barber gets my vote, especially after the mysterious way he appeared on the team, after being outplayed by Corbin Mills, John Peterson and even Jordan Russell.

Zahringer-2011 & 2013
Jackson-2015 & 2017
Miller-2019 & 2021
Kuehne-2023 & 2025

Given that each captain gets two cracks at it, this would have taken us 14 years into the future.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2011, 09:59:19 PM »
Gordon Brewer
Randy Haag
Mike McCoy
Vinnie Giles
Jerry Courville, Jr.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2011, 10:11:15 PM »
Gordon Brewer
Randy Haag
Mike McCoy
Vinnie Giles
Jerry Courville, Jr.


Vinny should have already been the captain, but his player/agent relationships might have been a concern to the USGA. 

Sam Morrow

Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2011, 12:20:24 AM »
What about someone who is not a player but a contributor the game of golf? Or maybe even a college coach (who is not a pro).

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2011, 06:02:58 AM »
It is highly dubious that a high percentage of these guys can be called amateurs so we shouldn't get too uptight about the status of the captain.  That said amateur status is defined in such a lenient way that I can't understand how someone who officially turns pro can ever be allowed back into amateur ranks.  This all smells to me of tip-toeing around what is the reality of high level golf these days.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2011, 07:43:51 AM »
I don't think Jerry Courville Jr. is an amateur at this time. If I remember correctly he tried to make it on the Senior Tour and is now teaching the game.   

Here's the list of past Captains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Cup
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2011, 01:13:15 PM »
I don't think Jerry Courville Jr. is an amateur at this time. If I remember correctly he tried to make it on the Senior Tour and is now teaching the game.   

Here's the list of past Captains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Cup

Jim -You are correct in that Jerry Courville Jr. is a pro.

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2011, 02:10:32 PM »
Even if Jerry Courville, Jr. didn't turn professional he would never be a Walker Cup captain for reasons that I don't want to get into in a public access forum.
I have to believe the USGA will give Holtgrieve another shot as that seems to be the way they have been going about it in recent times. Win or lose you seem to get two shots as a captain. I am sure George Zahringer III would love to be the captain in 2013 at NGLA especially since he is a member of the club but I don't think the USGA would elect him even if Holtgrieve didn't get a second term. His boorish behavior doesn't wear well on people.
I'm betting on Holtgrieve for 2013 followed by Tim Jackson for 2015-2017 and then Trip Kuehne in 2019-2021.

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