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William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Not a game changer??
« on: September 07, 2011, 08:37:09 PM »
How is anchored swinging/putting not a game changer? Just asking, as it sure seems to be like walking with a crutch (es) while humans are designed as bipeds?

Obviously a decision was made 25 years ago to let the long/anchored putter into the game we love, and now manufacturers are seeing their players succeed with it... as it becomes a new norm. Obviously it is a game changer as putting is where the main scoring occcurs

What I mean is that anchored swinging/putting is not swinging/putting in the traditional sense...as those who can't really swing their putter can now putt, and that is a game changer, IMHO. The end result of putting it in the hole is the same, but journey sure is changing, and golf is about the journey.

Just today in USA today...
"The recent run of putting success is sure to be included in conversations when the USGA and the R&A — the gatekeepers of the game — meet in several weeks, said Mike Davis, the executive director of the USGA. This, he said, however, would not be anything new."

"This isn't the first time this has come up," Davis said. "We've looked at long putters numerous times, and we will continue to look at them. We readily admit long putters do help some players, but we write rules for all golfers. We aren't seeing any data that says these things have changed the game or are harming the game.

"We don't see it as a game changer.""

Thanks ???

It's all about the golf!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2011, 10:46:15 PM »
How is anchored swinging/putting not a game changer? Just asking, as it sure seems to be like walking with a crutch (es) while humans are designed as bipeds?

Obviously a decision was made 25 years ago to let the long/anchored putter into the game we love, and now manufacturers are seeing their players succeed with it... as it becomes a new norm. Obviously it is a game changer as putting is where the main scoring occcurs

What I mean is that anchored swinging/putting is not swinging/putting in the traditional sense...as those who can't really swing their putter can now putt, and that is a game changer, IMHO. The end result of putting it in the hole is the same, but journey sure is changing, and golf is about the journey.

Just today in USA today...
"The recent run of putting success is sure to be included in conversations when the USGA and the R&A — the gatekeepers of the game — meet in several weeks, said Mike Davis, the executive director of the USGA. This, he said, however, would not be anything new."

"This isn't the first time this has come up," Davis said. "We've looked at long putters numerous times, and we will continue to look at them. We readily admit long putters do help some players, but we write rules for all golfers. We aren't seeing any data that says these things have changed the game or are harming the game.

"We don't see it as a game changer.""

Thanks ???



I now understand why they continue to  embrace the current Open Doctor.

If you're going to bury your head in a substance, it might as well be clean (and white ::)).........
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »
How is anchored swinging/putting not a game changer? Just asking, as it sure seems to be like walking with a crutch (es) while humans are designed as bipeds?

Obviously a decision was made 25 years ago to let the long/anchored putter into the game we love, and now manufacturers are seeing their players succeed with it... as it becomes a new norm. Obviously it is a game changer as putting is where the main scoring occcurs

What I mean is that anchored swinging/putting is not swinging/putting in the traditional sense...as those who can't really swing their putter can now putt, and that is a game changer, IMHO. The end result of putting it in the hole is the same, but journey sure is changing, and golf is about the journey.

Just today in USA today...
"The recent run of putting success is sure to be included in conversations when the USGA and the R&A — the gatekeepers of the game — meet in several weeks, said Mike Davis, the executive director of the USGA. This, he said, however, would not be anything new."

"This isn't the first time this has come up," Davis said. "We've looked at long putters numerous times, and we will continue to look at them. We readily admit long putters do help some players, but we write rules for all golfers. We aren't seeing any data that says these things have changed the game or are harming the game.

"We don't see it as a game changer.""

Thanks ???



x1

Its OK for the long bomber to have an advantage on all those long USGA style holes....

...but heaven forbid, if the long bomber can't putt, then we can't have a good putter having an advantage over him on the green.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 01:03:42 PM »
I have never understood why some folks want to dictate how others putt.  It is permissable in the rules.  Just like it is permissable for me to try a tee shot with the grip of the club fixed against my sternum.  Why would you outlaw that?

If there is an advantage to putting that way, do it.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 02:54:26 PM »
If not a "game changer", it's surely been a "game extender" or a "yips eliminater".  Seeing Phil Mickelson, Ernie Els and Jim Furyk with the long putters is one thing.  To see Keegan Bradley and Webb Simpsom waving the broom around on the greens is really disheartening to me because it makes me think that they couldn't compete on this level without the crutch.  For some reason, that is more unsettling than a veteran player trying to remain competitive as opposed to being competitive as a young man.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 02:58:28 PM »
Kind of like college kids popping Viagra...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 03:00:17 PM »
I have to believe both Keegan and Webb would be very good putters with the standard length; they are just plain better with the belly putter, it's not a crutch for them.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 03:04:12 PM »
I have to believe both Keegan and Webb would be very good putters with the standard length; they are just plain better with the belly putter, it's not a crutch for them.

That's like a guy with gout saying that he walks just fine, but his gait is better with a crutch.  It's an aid.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 03:22:56 PM »
Call me old fashioned, but I do not like any of the alternative putters. And being a lawyer, I can't help but cite precedent. The USGA has already banned one form of putting that was considered to be an unfair advantage - putting between your legs (aka croquet style). See Rule 16(e), the "Sam Snead Rule." Or hell, For example, it's illegal to make a billiard-type motion (Decision 14-1/2) when putting or to tap in with the grip end of the putter (14-1/3). Why ban those and not the long putter? Seems arbitrary...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 03:25:42 PM by David Cronheim »
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 03:44:35 PM »
It's certainly a game changer for me.

Yesterday I missed my first 4 putts inside 4 feet with my long putter that I've had in the garage for 5 years.  It is back in the garage.

A game changer indeed.....

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2011, 03:49:10 PM »
So is the belly putter stroke straight back/straight through or inside to inside like a door?
Mr Hurricane

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2011, 04:38:37 PM »
Want to know how bad the situation is?

I was just asked by the chair of rules for the main hickory golf group if if they should/could change/make a rule allowing 'belly' putters in gutty era events.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2011, 05:06:30 PM »
Guys:  we're gonna see articles like this every day for a year or so because the brainless golf media can't think of anything more meaningful to write about now that their mealticket can't hit the hole from 6 feet anymore...the sheer quantity of brainless articles from these quacks trying to conjure up an issue is Exhibit A that there simply isn't one.

So is it back and through or inside to inside? You are the expert. I need help.
Mr Hurricane

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2011, 05:07:32 PM »
There have been many game changers, like  wooden balls to featheries,  smooth gutties  to patterned gutties, solid Haskells to wound Haskells, and dimpled wound balatas to solid cores. Wood shafts  became steel and graphite, wood heads became steel  and titanium. During the era of featheries irons were sparsely used (they damaged the cover), specialized pieces of equipment with no grooves., Now they’re full sets with grooves and cavity backs. We’ve gone from 13 rules to 34, along with hundreds upon hundreds of decisions that have changed the way we play the game.

Here are some of Adam Scott’s putting stats and corresponding rank on Tour:
                               2011               2010                  2009                 2008    
<5’                     94.81/176       93.75/188           94.71/170         92.94/196
5-10’                  59.38/34         46.55/189           47.67/180         48.41/191
10-15’                25.00/161       25.68/157           23.01/173         39.77/1
15-20’               18.46/98          22.77/17             13.43/171         26.53/3  
20-25’               12.50/81          17.11/24             12.50/84             6.25/189
25’ >                    5.99/54           6.28/52                5.97/71             6.16/62


Birdie or           30.89/43rd        29.52/56th         27.77/133rd       30.70/18th
Better
Conv.

When I read these I see a player who was on top of the world from 10-15’ and 15/20’ in ’08 but fell off the planet  going forward.  He had a couple of bright spots in ’10, from 15/20’ and 20/25’, but lost it again in ’11. The long putter has done little for him in all categories except the 5/10’ range.
His B orB conversion rate in ’08, ’10, and ’11 is fairly constant.

There’s nothing that’s going to harm the game (my opinion) in Adam Scott’s (or others) use of a long putter, although It may help  Adam Scott a bit  but only if he can get the ball between 5 and 10’ from the hole.

Similarly, a line drawn on a golf ball has little to do with changing the game.  The most visible ‘offender’,  Tiger, has seen his stats worsen in the  >5’ category, and he hasn’t rubbed the line off his ball over the past 4 seasons.

’08 – 98.01% - 1
’09 -  98.08    - 4
’10 -  97.35    - 23
’11 -  96.70 – 60th
 -
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 05:16:54 PM »

So is the belly putter stroke straight back/straight through or inside to inside like a door?


Certainly no expert as I've only used mine for 3 rounds,but I think they work better SB/ST.The more pendulum-like you can get it,the better.Of course,YMMV.

Ian Andrew

Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2011, 05:34:00 PM »
If not a "game changer", it's surely been a "game extender" or a "yips eliminater".  Seeing Phil Mickelson, Ernie Els and Jim Furyk with the long putters is one thing.  To see Keegan Bradley and Webb Simpsom waving the broom around on the greens is really disheartening to me because it makes me think that they couldn't compete on this level without the crutch.  For some reason, that is more unsettling than a veteran player trying to remain competitive as opposed to being competitive as a young man.

I like what Terry wrote and agree with all he said.


On a personal note:

I turned to it because I was completely done playing if I didn't (yips, shanks, frozen in place, take your pick...)
I only putted well when I eventually fought my way back to a short putter.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 08:03:37 PM »
It's certainly a game changer for me.

Yesterday I missed my first 4 putts inside 4 feet with my long putter that I've had in the garage for 5 years.  It is back in the garage.

A game changer indeed.....

hahaha, you just not be using it properly, just as some of my buddies ;)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 08:07:06 PM by William Grieve »
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2011, 08:04:43 PM »
So is the belly putter stroke straight back/straight through or inside to inside like a door?

inside/inside
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2011, 08:08:20 PM »
If not a "game changer", it's surely been a "game extender" or a "yips eliminater".  Seeing Phil Mickelson, Ernie Els and Jim Furyk with the long putters is one thing.  To see Keegan Bradley and Webb Simpsom waving the broom around on the greens is really disheartening to me because it makes me think that they couldn't compete on this level without the crutch.  For some reason, that is more unsettling than a veteran player trying to remain competitive as opposed to being competitive as a young man.

yes, I agree, more unsettling for sure    :(
It's all about the golf!

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2011, 01:09:37 AM »
Want to know how bad the situation is?

I was just asked by the chair of rules for the main hickory golf group if if they should/could change/make a rule allowing 'belly' putters in gutty era events.

Wow.

Would the long putter have to have a hickory shaft? Maybe they have some in the back at Auchterlonies.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2011, 09:19:37 AM »
And now back to the long putter....

On the Morning Drive today, Stewart Cink, who has gone back and forth between belly putting and traditional putting, said.................

the long putter controversy is "the story of the year in golf".
It's all about the golf!

Brent Hutto

Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2011, 09:21:51 AM »
Principle, eh?

The specific principle being "I don't like it. No sir. Don't like it a bit."

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2011, 09:52:08 AM »
the principle of the belly putting controversy is whether it is a game changer or not..

like it or not

thanks
It's all about the golf!

Brent Hutto

Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2011, 10:00:49 AM »
No, it's patently not changing the game in any meaningful way ( scoring, outcome of tournaments, etc.) so that principle is a non-starter. The only thing changing is that you can see people putting in a manner different than how they putted in previous decades. And that comes down to whether seeing them putt that way offends you or does not offend you.

It's an equipment fad and a technique fad rolled into one. If the majority of golfers are using belly putters 15 years from now, that will have been a change in the game. Like the Titanium driver. If it's still just a choice that 1% or 5% or even 20% of golfers make or if it's something that lots of people try for a while then go on to some other putting style, then it's just a fad. My money is on fad.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not a game changer??
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2011, 10:11:08 AM »
Like it or not, you will be seeing a proliferation of long putters IMO now that the stigma has been taken away by young pros winning with them.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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