RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned

[Mike Duffy]

Meadow Springs, located at Mandurah, about 80 minutes drive south of Perth, in the state of Western Australia.

This is a course that hardly ever rates a mention even in Oz.

It could be due to its somewhat isolated location, nonetheless, Meadow Springs is a very good golf course. Good routing, good use of the land parcels, interesting holes and strategy. I can recommend this place to anyone passing that way with confidence in the knowledge that they will probably enjoy the experience.

One of the bitter disappointments of my golfing life was The National, on the Mornington Peninsula. Great routing, on a piece of land any golf architect would give his eye teeth to get hold of.

However, RTJ Jnr ballsed the place up with greens that only a drunk could dream up. Enough said!!!

[Justin_Ryan]

Mike Duffy

I like the greens at the National.  Some of the contours may be bold, but they are unique in my golfing experience that they often provide multiple options to get the ball to the hole.  This is actually great fun and can be very rewarding for those with an imaginative short game.  The obvious option is often most likely the one that will leave you furthest away.  The example that most people cite as ridiculous is the 16th green, but like most of them it is actually quite an easy two putt if you are on the right level.  Given that a different coloured flag is used if the pin is on the back tier, a three putt is deserved if you hit it on the wrong level.  Every tournament that is played at Royal Melbourne or Augusta or a host of more classical courses has the commentators warning of the importance of putting it in the right part of the green to score well, and this is how I found the National  (Please note, I am not comparing him to Alastair McKenzie, I don't want to be lynched).  It really does require repeated play to begin to appreciate its nuances though, and not only is it more spectacular than the two new courses there, it is much more strategic as well.

[Mike Duffy]

Justin,

I have played the National (RTJ Jnr. course) about 11 times. On each occasion accompanied by a member. On every one to those occasions, people that I have been playing with have putted off the greens.

Whilst I may agree with your view that you have to be on the right level, remember that this course was built with members in mind, and I believe that it does not give most of them a fair chance to enjoy their games with the hillocks and gradients on the greens in a very windy location.

Tournament golf would never ever be played there, so RTJ Jnr. exceeded his brief in designing those wretched things.

You might also be interested to know Justin that Joondalup, which is one of your reciprocal courses I believe, especially instructed RTJ NOT to design greens in the mould of The National.

He carried out his instructions, and Joondalup is a better course for it.

I find The National a very difficult course to walk, however, Jones obviously took every advantage he could in designing the very best routing.

In 1993 I played there in 40 deg. heat and it took me about four days to recover. Mike Harwood was playing behind us, and he arrived at the club house in a distressed condition as well.

We asked him what he thought of the course and his exhausted comment was: "Bloody ridiculous".

Amen.

[Gib_Papazian]

Mike:

I've played several Mackenzie courses where on a windy day it was easy to putt off the greens . . . . #1 at Cypress Point comes to mind.

Anybody ever seen #11 or #18 at Pasatiempo?

Same thing at Ballybunnion Old (though not a Mackenzie, still revered.). Try keeping the ball on the green when the pin is on the front 1/3 on #2 and your ball is in the back.

Moral of the story:

"Take your medicine and don't complain."

I believe a rather famous architect once said that.

Next time, don't hit it there. Gawd help Mike Harwood if he ever plays #6 at NGLA. Hit the tee shot on the wrong quadrant of the green and he'll be a bit more than "distressed." Just out of curiosity, if you are so traumatized, why have you played National as a guest 11 times? And I thought Aussies were all tough guys.  

[Justin_Ryan]

Mike Duffy

It is certainly a course that polarises people, but generally speaking I have observed that it tends to grow on people once they have seen it a few times.  You are right about walking it though, it is probably one of the more aerobically challenging golf courses one is likely to play, particularly if you insist on playing it when it is 40 degrees.  I have only been a member there for around 18 months, and have never putted off a green.  I am probably a reasonably average putter, so I suspect that they may have slowed down over the past couple of years, possibly as a result of ever encroaching poa.  Maybe someone who has been playing there longer could give an opinion.  I don't think there is any doubt though that if the greens were more moderate in their contours, it would be a much more popular course.

Gib,

I'm with you, whoever said that you shouldn't be able to putt off a green.  And Mike is obviously tough, because it was one of the most bitter disappointments of his golfing life and he went back a further ten times.  How many Americans would do that?

[Tom Doak]

There's nothing wrong with a green you might putt off on occasion.  Crystal Downs has 18 of them.

That said, there is something wrong with greens where you often can't get within ten feet of the hole with a great putt.  Crystal Downs has one of two of those.  The National [Australia] has about ten of them!

P.S. to David Wigler:  Quail Crossing isn't my best-kept course -- they operate on $30 green fees -- but if you think it's a dog track your credibility is now zero on the Doak scale.

[Mike Duffy]

Gib,

I have never played golf to demonstrate my toughness or lack thereof. I play the game for enjoyment and nothing more.

If you haven't played The National, then you really don't know what I and others have tried to describe.

For me there is little joy in reaching a green in two shots, which in itself is no mean accomplishment, particularly at a place such as The National, and then be faced with the almost complete certainty of a three putt.

It is not uncommon to have a putt of 20 feet that requires 15 feet of borrow around one of the swales or slopes. If I want that kind of "fun" I can play a putt-putt course for an hour or so.

Harwood, like me on the day in question, was distressed from the heat and walking a very difficult course through sand hills  and up some severe slopes.

I don't think Mike was trying to prove how tough he was, but I could say that he was equally as silly as me for walking it in such adverse conditions.

Why have I been back 10 times? I have friends there, and I believe to continually knock back invitations would in the long term cause offence. They believe, like Justin, that if I play it often enough, I will in time love they place as they do.

I think maybe not . . .

[Brian Walshe]

Mike,

When I first started playing at the National about 10 years ago I had your view of the greens.  In fact I think I offered to pay for the bulldozer to "fix" 16 in particular.  

My views have changed over time and now I'd be very unhappy if there was talk of changing them.  Yep, there are a lot of swales and bumps and some pretty radical tiers but I very rarely see people putting off greens.  The National greens are effectively greens within greens and if you put the ball in the wrong spot then most of the time you'll three put.  To me it is no different to missing a green and finding yourself in a bunker, occasionally you'll get it up and down but mostly you’ll take three to get down.  If the greens were smaller and with less movement then missing the green would be just as penal as missing a tier is today.  If the greens were the same size but a lot flatter I think they’d look out of proportion, the radical shaping visually breaking up what would otherwise look very large.  I also believe that the multiple tiering allows the greens to tie into the dramatic landscape better than large flat greens would have.

Perhaps it’s an acquired taste and you need a lot of local knowledge to enjoy it but it’s far from unplayable for the members.  The big advantage of the greens is that you can use those slopes and swales to feed the ball to the hole which gives you a bigger target a lot of the time.  It’s different, difficult and perhaps unique, but I don’t think that automatically makes it bad.

As for the difficulty in walking, you are correct, it’s a very tough walk but a lot of that is because you have some serious hills to climb on 16, 17 and 18 when you are tired (and in your case on the 40 degree day, very hot).  With the opening of the new clubhouse in March and the change to the routing I think it will get easier.  Those three big hills will all be in the first 5 holes and that last 4 (from the current 10th) all basically play downhill.

Brian

[moth]

RTJ2 does his best work on dramatic terrain - most I have seen around the world are very good courses. On flat terrain his work can somtimes seem uninspired and well "flat".

He is also one of the more "international" of the US architects, certainly he does a hell of a lot more work outside the US than his brother. Doing the international work requires a good organisation and he has (or had) that until a bunch of his senior designers left. A lot of the courses mentioned here (certainly in Australia and Princeville) was the work of Don Knott who was his senior designer and now has his own firm with Mark Brooks and a couple of other senior designers.

BTW everyone here seems to think architects win or lose jobs based on the quality of their work- in the ideal world this would be the case. I think you are more likely to win or lose a job based on your relationship with the owner or the quality of your personality - ask Fazio, Rees etc!!

[Justin_Ryan]

Tom

Some of the older guys seem to be able to knock putts to six inches from nearly anywhere.  Luckily they struggle to reach some of the fairways off the back tees.  Hopefully the proposed new courses will go ahead and you get the opportunity to do one of them and show us how it should be done.

Brett

The quality of an architects brand is also critical, as nearly all course developments involve selling real estate.  In Australia this seems to have resulted in Thomson Wolveridge Perrett and Greg Norman Design picking up the bulk of upmarket work.  GND are defensible, with Bob Harrison doing some good work, but if it was based on the quality of past work, then you would have a long list to get through before you reached TWP.

Now that RTJ jr has had a run, maybe it is time for Pete Dye.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Ed Getka,
    The muni on Kauai is Wailua and yes, it is a fun course, with a couple ocean holes.  I think it was something like $18 in 1994.

[ed_getka]

Scott,
 Thanks for the name of the course. Golf in Hawaii for less than $100, whoda thunk it.

[Tim_Weiman]

Brett Mogg:

Just the opposite.  Most people at GCA are well aware that personal connections and marketing skills more often than not will prevail.  We would just like to see "quality of work" start to play a more important role.

[moth]

Tim,

(you can call me Brett!)-

Hear hear, thats the way I think all would like it :-/. Out here where I am working (China a lot) our main competition is basically a very big marketing company, the pinnicle of "name dropping" and no substance (IMO).  . They have slick marketing types who can sell an owner on a name and on 100,000m3 of earthworks no matter what the site is like. They do not have a successful track record and it has not hurt them one little bit.

For the life of me I cant work out why a developer would not at least visit one of the golf courses done by hie proposed designer?? But it happens over here all the time.

[David Wigler]

Tom Doak,

Your comment is actually funny.  Could it be true that a person so willing to criticize the work of others is so unwilling to hear his own work criticized?  I was with three other people when we saw Quail Crossing and we all agreed, Dog Track!

This does not take away from the brilliance that I have heard Pacific Dunes described or the excellence that I have heard Apache Stronghold.  Opinions are funny that way.  As for $30 green fees, come on.  You know better.  Even the king of mediocrity (Art Hills) has designed 10+ courses I have played with similar green fees and a far superior golf course.  Heck, I have played courses designed by owners with similar green fees that are far superior.  Have you been there recently and actually looked at what you created?  If you do not believe Quail Crossing to be a dog track, then it is I who thinks your credibility is 0 and I would venture to guess that if there are three or more people on this site who have played it, they would agree with me.  Sometimes we do not like what we see in the mirror but that does not change the reflection.  

[David Wigler]

PS.  I hope the post below doesn't blow my chance of one day being invited to Archipalooza.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ed,
Scott is right, that was the price in 94, however, I think that Wailua was about 50 two years ago.

I have not played it in a few years, because it was such a great bargain it was also the busiest and poorly conditioned.

Plus, the Prince course is on the same island.

[THuckaby2]

Jeff - thanks for the description re Boulder Ridge - I'm still getting over the shock and slight that you bastards played that course 5 miles from my home, that I drive by every day of my life, and didn't invite me.  I'll get over it some day.

Maybe.

 

It is good to hear SOMETHING about it in any case.  The whole place is a freakin' mystery to me.  All I know is the backlash in the newspaper against Rocke Garcia as he screwed the SJ City planning commission, promising public access and not delivering... same story as Gilroy & Cordevalle...

TH

[Tom Doak]

Dear Mr. Wigler:

Since your post about Quail Crossing [which seemed out of place on this thread anyway] contained no constructive or even specific criticism at all, just the use of a derogatory term, I am offended by it.  Feel free to e-mail me with your analysis of the course if you have one.  I'm still happy with the result.

The good news:  you never had a shot at being invited to Archipalooza anyway.

[THuckaby2]

TD:  it was I who invited David's mention of Quail Crossing, just in a good-humored jab at my friend Tommy N., who made an absolute statement that he'd take a Doak course over a RTJJr. course any time.  Being in a persnickety, lawyer-like mood, I asked if the WORST Doak course would be better than the BEST RTJJr. course.  Maybe it would be, who knows, I just wanted Tommy to prove it!

So I take some blame here - my apologies.  I was just having some fun with this....

Keep up the great work in any case.

Cheers!

Tom Huckaby

[David Wigler]

Tom Huckaby,

Thanks for trying to take the blame, but I accidentally picked this fight.  I did not need to respond to your comment and I certainly did not need to use the term "Dog Track".  Tom Doak is clearly capable of genius and in my opinion capable of very mundane work (Like Quail).  I do not plan on debating it further because I do not believe I could convince Tom of the inadequacies of Quail, I do not believe he could convince me it is a course deserving of merit, and I do not believe it is a significant course in his legacy and therefore worth studying.  IMO every RTJ II course I have played (Las Sendas, Chateau Whistler, Orchards, Granite Bay, Southern Highlands, Tierra Del Sol) is superior to Quail but in that regard, Tom is right.  I am comparing Apples and Oranges, as each is a very high-end golf course.  I have not played Tom’s best work (Pacific and Apache) so I cannot compare his best to RTJ’s.

Thanks again for trying to take the heat.  I can live without my invite to Archipalooza, though I would love to go one year.

David

[George Pazin]

Come on, David, this is an opportunity everyone on board dreams of! You have a chance to discuss actual design with the actual designer of the course. How can you duck this? From everything Tom Doak has posted on this site, I would think, no, I know that he would gladly discuss any criticisms you have of the course, publicly or privately. He may not convince you, you surely won't convince him, but how could you duck this? The comments might not affect your credibility, but the avoidance might.  

Don't make me start a "Tom Doak vs. David Wigler on Quaill Crossing" thread!

[David Wigler]

George,

Thanks for the goading but I will not take the bait.  I already had a debate with Tom on a previous thread where I compared Victoria National to High Pointe.  That was relevant as both are widely regarded golf courses.  

The fact that no one has given any opinion of Quail other then Tom Doak and Myself leads me to believe that very few have played it (It is in a remote area near Evansville IN).  In my mind, we are here to debate the merits of courses and architects.  We speak of their work and their own places in history.  If I believed that Apache Stronghold or Pacific Dunes (The courses that Doak's legacy is currently reflected in) were dog tracks, then I would willingly have the debate.  A debate on Quail Crossing would be as irrelevant as getting a chance to speak with Donald Ross and asking him about the inadequacies of Rackham Park instead of Pinehurst or his thoughts on RTJ's changes at Oakland Hills.  In essence, it would serve no purpose other that voyeuristic edification on an irrelevant sidebar I made to a lengthy praise of RTJ II.  Tom’s point in taking it off line (I assume) was that a debate on Quail has little merit.  Although I disagree with him on the course, I agree with him completely on that logic.  If that causes me to lose credibility, I can live with it.  

[Rich_Goodale]

David

You can have my invitation to Archipalooza.  Don't worry, Tom Doak hasn't a clue what either of us look like, so fooling him will be no trouble.  Just sit in the back, hit your 3-irons high and soft and use a 4-syllable word from time to time and he won't be the wiser.

Last year my invitation was inexplicably lost in the mail, but this year, with the heightened sense of purpose at the USPO, I am much more optimistic...............

Enjoy.

[THuckaby2]

Please, Rich.  Any Goodale impersonation will also require:

a) "clipped" tones and an accent placed somewhere in the Atlantic between Boston and Dornoch;

b) high soft 3irons in one's mind only (sorry! );

c) booming "where the hell did that come from" 300 yard drives from a man roughly the size of Gary Player;

d) impeccable timing in quips and cuts, the only man on this earth the equal of Bob Huntley in that regard;

e) 25 cent words used CORRECTLY and in proper context.

The list goes on.  I'm thinking I could pull it off, humbly.  But then again, darken my hair and I believe I could pull off a Papazian... just gotta learn to hit the low hook better!

TH

ps - David, no hassles re the above - I did just feel some responsibility for the initial question, which was a stupid one to begin with!