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THuckaby2

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2002, 10:29:47 AM »

Quote
It is without doubt my favorite RTJ II course. For a life-changing experience it is perfect. Is the architecture perfect? Of course not. I think its main problem is with the routing. It is a good course that could have been GREAT.

But is it not better than Doak's worst course (I don't know what that would be) in any case?  ;)

Cheers

TH, in a strange mood today,wanting an associate job with JC's law firm
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2002, 10:45:16 AM »
Maybe Bob doesn't get much mention here because his archtitecture is difficult to describe with vague generalizations.

Personally, I have always loved his work because even when it is uneven and over-the-top, at the end of the round I have had fun, been challenged and want to come back.

Eagle Point is one of the best courses I have ever played -  a design with an almost mystical aura.

We get a steady diet of his work around here because his office is just down the  road in Palo Alto. Sometimes you have to take a second look at his courses to digest the content. Poppy Hills is a good example of a course I did not care for  at the  beginning, but has grown on me tremendously.

I may be the only one, but Spanish Bay is still one of my favorite golf courses to play on Earth. It escapes me how the  putting surface contours do not impress everyone else as much as me.

Bob takes a lot of chances - some hit the mark and some miss by a wide margin - but he never bores me. Even on golf courses like much-maligned Shoreline. Pretty tough to beat 10-12 as a string of holes.  

I don't know how many Treehousers have played Wailea Gold -not a dramatic statement like The Plantation - but a rock solid, well done golf course.

The North Course at Makena - particularly the newer holes added after the original course was divided - has some beautifully done work integrated with the native terrain. The split-fairway #6 is worth the cost of admission itself. Too bad the Village and Bay courses on the other side of the island landed in the hands of Palmer's hacks.

As to a comparison between the brothers, well if you have been checking into DG for more than a week you'd know where I stand.

With the exception of MPCC Dunes, I'm still waiting to play a Rees course I yearn to play again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2002, 10:53:26 AM »
Well said, Gib.  I wasn't gonna mention it for fear for facing Naccratan wrath, but we sure do have LOTS of RTJII around here.  I'm with you re Poppy Hills - but I never DISLIKED it even from the day it opened.  And complaints about Spanish Bay always mystify me and I just assume such are over my head - that place makes my heart sing as well.  As for my former home-course (yes, I did live for several years in Mountain View) Shoreline GL, I'd just like to see what any of the "revered" arkies could have done better with that site... and damn right, 10-12 is a wonderful stretch of holes.  There are other good holes there also... 16-18 are all good fun.

I'm not a "fan" or "non-fan" of any golf course architect, I'd like to think I take each course as an individual entity for assessment (though I admit I die for MacKenzie and CBMac has won me over and I sure do like Doak's work and... oh well, scratch the above!).  But in any case, I sure see and hear about more good RTJII courses than bad ones...

As for Rees, gee, have you and Dan and I ever discussed Poppy Ridge?   ;) ;) ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

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Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2002, 10:54:59 AM »
OK guys, is RTJ Jr. "The Frank Lloydw Wright of golf course design?" Here are a couple of quotes and an article re RTJ Jr...

"With more than 170 golf courses completed during his prolific career, Robert Trent Jones, Jr. has occasionally been referred to as the "Frank Lloyd Wright" of golf course architects because his golf courses not only play well, but harmonize well with the surrounding environment."

"Jones, Jr. often called the Frank Lloyd Wright of golf course design, has a sensitivity for the natural landscape. Though his courses tend to be visually spectacular, they are also cerebral, providing several options for playing each hole."

http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/yeartodate/news98/farren1.html

Now I know this may be a lot of self-aggrandizing hype, but is there any validity to this appellation?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

THuckaby2

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2002, 10:57:15 AM »
WHOA!  That sure seems like a stretch to me.  But I honestly don't know more than the bare minimum re FLW.  Rich Goodale, who knows everything, HELP!!!!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2002, 11:04:45 AM »
Tommy:

I also regret the routing plan of Spanish Bay.  Running those holes behind the hotel doesn't make sense.  They should have just laid out the whole course and had the hotel looking over it a la Turnberry.

Holes I like include #17 and #14, the par five back towards the water.  #13 didn't turn out too bad either.  

I hate #10, mostly due to the tee shot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Rich_Goodale

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2002, 11:08:55 AM »
Fourth Tom

All I know is that FLW built some pithy buildings whose roofs (rooves?) leaked (is that why he called one of them "Falling Waters"?).  At least one of the 3 Toms and RJD know much, much more than I do about this subject.....

PS--anybody know why RJT (and Frank Lickliter) recently changed their monikers from "Jr." to "II"?

PPS--I'm with you guys re Poppy Hills and Shoreline, and also liked the 1st 9 at Bodega Harbor and Keystone in Colorado.  SB is very good, but as they say in report cards in Scotland "Could do better!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

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Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2002, 11:09:28 AM »
TH,

You don't need to know a lot about Frank Lloyd Wright to comment. The notion is that RTJjr's courses blend well with the natural environment like FLW's homes blended with their environments (see, eg, Taliesen West).

Recall a few months ago we even had a whole thread regarding Frank Lloyd Wright that went something like "What sort of golf course designer would Frank Lloyd Wright have been?" Wish I'd seen these quotes re RTJjr back then. Also wish I were related to "Uncle Frank" other than just by name. He was an ornery cuss, but a rich and intriguing one...  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2002, 11:10:09 AM »
How much input did Tom Watson and Sandy Tatum have in the design of Spanish Bay?

I read an article a few years ago about how Watson was privately pissed off at the environmental restrictions at Spanish Bay, which prevent the Tour from adding it to the AT&T rotation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2002, 11:15:09 AM »
Tom,

To answer your question about the worst Doak track, it has to be Quail Crossing in Indiana.  It meets all of the criteria of a dog track.

The more I read, the more I like RTJ Jr.  Shame on me but I did not remember he did Las Sendas, Chateau Whistler or Tierra Del Sol.  Tierra is a wonderful effort on some very extreme terrain.  It is as good as I could imagine anyone doing, given that piece of property.  I thought Chateau Whistler had a pathetic first hole and then enjoyed the remaining 17 holes.  Gib hit the nail on the head.  The one common thread about all of RTJ Jr's work that I have experienced is that it is enjoyable to play.  This guy should get more credit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

THuckaby2

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2002, 11:18:34 AM »
Rich:  fine addition re Bodega Harbour, and as for what Spanish Bay might have been, these all seem like valid comments to me but I've also always been one just to assess what is and live with it! I actually like the holes "behind" the hotel... all of them.... I don't have the vision to imagine how the course would be if the hotel was closer to 17MiDrive and the course unfolded in front of it.  Could be better, could be worse, I have no idea.  Mr. Huntley likely saw all too much of the site pre-construction so we need him to chime in here... I do believe he has no fond feelings for the course, for many reasons....

As for FLW comparisons, I get it now, Doug.  I'd have to answer with a very milque-toastish "some do, some don't, from what I've seen."  I guess this means calling him the FLW of Golf is indeed quite a stretch and a bit of hubris from Mr. Jones and/or his publicist.

TH



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2002, 11:20:31 AM »
Thanks, David W.  Having played but ONE Doak course, a certain little gem in Oregon, and absolutely digging all his writing, I had the thought that he walked on water... but I knew there had to be at least ONE Doak course perceived as "worse" than SB or Princeville-Prince...

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2002, 11:46:26 AM »
Well there is quite a bit of truth that Bob works well with the environment. The behavior of the wackos at both Spanish Bay and Squaw Creek bordered on hysterical. Somehow he managed to work around their  demands and still come up with some excellent work.

He's a different kind of duck to begin with. He has this sort of calming, holistic-high priest-mystical presence about him  - kind of a 64 year old Tom Doak.

If anyone can speak enviro-gibberish to quell the loonies, he can. Plus, he reall believes that stuff.

And when he gets a property like Cordevalle to work with - WOW.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2002, 11:49:47 AM »
Well there is quite a bit of truth that Bob works well with the environment. The behavior of the wackos at both Spanish Bay and Squaw Creek bordered on hysterical. Somehow he managed to work around their  demands and still come up with some excellent work.

He's a different kind of duck to begin with. He has this sort of calming, holistic-high priest-mystical presence about him  - kind of a 64 year old Tom Doak.

If anyone can speak enviro-gibberish to quell the loonies, he can. Plus, he reall believes that stuff.

And when he gets a property like Cordevalle to work with - WOW.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2002, 11:55:39 AM »
Tell us how you really feel about environmentalists, Gib.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2002, 11:56:39 AM »
Well there is quite a bit of truth that Bob works well with the environment. The behavior of the wackos at both Spanish Bay and Squaw Creek bordered on hysterical. Somehow he managed to work around their  demands and still come up with some excellent work.

He's a different kind of duck to begin with. He has this sort of calming, holistic-high priest-mystical presence about him  - kind of a 64 year old Tom Doak.

If anyone can speak enviro-gibberish to quell the loonies, he can. Plus, he reall believes that stuff.

And when he gets a property like Cordevalle to work with - WOW.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Stettner

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2002, 01:17:53 PM »
This is a review of The Ridge, in Auburn, that I wrote for friends. As many have mentioned, the Ridge is pure fun, and a very good golf course on a tight piece of property.



The course is defined by large bunkers and green complexes that have a side with an obvious advantage -- play to the wrong side and get penalized, play to the proper side and a poor shot might be rewarded. Water does come into play, but not so much that it becomes tiresome. Lakes, for example, come into play on the approaches of 2, 9, 10, 16 and
17, and on the tee shot of 18. The water is spread out enough to be a pleasant encounter, not a burden.
The bunkering is very solid, if not predictable in shape for those who know RTJ Jr. courses. What's new, however, is some of the placement. Often bunker are well short of putting surfaces and in the middle of fairways; holes often look shorter than they are. There is even a series
of cross bunkers on number 11, a par 5 that blows most long holes out of the water.
The greens are the strength of the course, wildly sloping with false fronts and lot's of rolls. Like Boulder Ridge, knowledgeable golfers can use the greens as backboards and ramps. My only question here is the slight monotony; I would have like to see some crowned greens to go
along with the many bowls. The routing works on almost every level, flow is very good. Two and nine
are par fives of similar ilk that detract a little, as does the fact
that you have to cross nine tee to get to the 2 tee, and the opposite. Besides that, I have no complaints.

1. A very good if difficult starting hole that gives great introduction to the course. Slightly uphill par 4 of 433 yards through a few old oaks, played to a green with a large redanesque bank on the right. A shot I left out there that I thought was off the mark ended up 10 feet from the hole; introduces the golfer to the strategic aspects to the
course.
2. An okay par five that parallels number nine. A rock-strewn canyon guards the right while large oaks guard the left. A lake by the green, which has three tiers, comes into play on long second shots and third shots. Not much to rave about, but not bad either.
3. A really nice par three that fits the land. A bunker 25 yards short of the green deceives the golfer; all of us came up short of the flag. Green is long and narrow with a ridge down the middle.
4. Very difficult hole with an awesome green. Drive is uphill to a fairway that is wider than it looks. Second shot, which will be anything from an eight to a wood, must carry a creek and fronting bunker to a double-bowl green with a false front. Lot's of big numbers here.
5. Par three that suits the land better than one would figure. Rides a natural ridge, green is wildly sloping with bunkers front both right and left. From back tees, 208 yards. Very exposed to wind. A good hole that contradicts the courses strategy, there is no clear advantage to either
side.
6. Really good short par 4 (344). Carry bunker 180 out, more bunkers at 300. One lone pot bunker directly in front of middle of green must be avoided (think 10 at Maderas). Green slopes away from golfer, and is shallow and wide.
7. One of three straight short par 4's(6,7,8), seven is the weakest of the three. 360 yards uphill, this fairway is clearly too tight, one of the squeezed holes. Green is great, however, with a false front and very cool bowl front right. Bunker 25 yards short of green creates a really nice chipping zone.
8. The third short par 4 in a row, plays only 356 yards downhill. Tee shot is the point of interest, bunker sits about 280 out on the right side. Golfer who carries the bunker will hit a speed ramp and possibly drive the green. Fairway narrows on the left at the same point, so golfer that hits a long ball but steers away from the bunker will end up
in a deep hollow of rough. Neat strategy here, again, obvious safe route vs. risky reward. Green is small and well-bunkered.
9. Like number 2, an okay par 5. Rock canyon is on the left here, while water appears by the green. Easy hole for three shots, and green is pretty good with a ramp from right front to back left, but one of the weaker holes here overall.
10. Long and straight par four with water right off the tee and by the green. Green has a huge collection area to the left for those who steer away from the water. Well done in that regard, as golfers must cut hazard somewhat close to find the small green.
11. A world class par five (517). Fairly level tee shot must avoid four bunkers off the tee, three of which create a cross hazard at 280 yards out. From that point, it's 230 yards uphill to a wild green split into tiers with a backboard that spins long shots back at the pin. Deep bunkers right and left. Some will reach this green while others will do
what my father did, who found the bunker in the middle of the fairway. He made five by dunking a 75 yard shot.
12. A pretty par three awkwardly routed, as one has to walk backwards for 75 yards to find the tee. Setting is great, however, as green is wedged in some beautiful old oaks. One large bunker fronts the green, which is bigger than it looks and holds shots very well. 195 yards.
13. A brutal par 4 of 416 yards straight uphill. Three bunkers short of the green make the second shot all carry, which is a long iron for most. Green is narrow and sloping. Birdie here felt like eagle.
14. The weakest par three, 180 yards downhill. Three bunkers guard a modest narrow green. Little here to say.
15. Neat par five that is reachable at 550. Tee shot is blind and downhill, right side will add 25 yards. A series of bunkers start 50 yards short left of the green and go all the way to the putting surface, making most golfers who try to reach the green carry it all the way. Very narrow ramp on the right.
16. Tough tee shot on a long par 4 (433) must thread narrow opening of oaks with hazard to the right. Green holds well, but has a bunker on the right and large collection area to the left. Much like ten in that golfers who don't challenge the hazard (here it's the bunker) will end up in a chipping zone.
17. Curious par 3 over water at 178. Bunker splits the bail out area to the left, creating two paths to bounce the ball on the green. Most will try to carry the ball to the center of the green, which holds well. Bunker works, as golfers will have to think hard about the safe route.
Neat concept in not offering a free ride to the timid.
18. The requisite cape hole, doglegs left slightly around a large lake. Target bunker on the right for those who bail out. Very cool green split by a ridge that runs from the green to thirty yards short. Lot's of chipping options here, though both times I played here the area short of the green was very wet, unfortunate considering the design.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2002, 01:21:19 PM »
That was cool - thanks for submitting such, Jeff.  The Ridge remains on my "to get to" list for sure.  Long way from San Jose, that's all.

You say "like Boulder Ridge" at one point... what course do you mean?  Have you played the private course that has that name in San Jose?  If so I am dying to hear about it, I drive past it every day and have yet to talk to anyone who's played it.  Word is they have 10 members....

Methinks you mean the course in Brentwood that HAD that name but now is called Shadow Lakes - Todd E's course.  But please do clarify.

Thanks!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2002, 02:28:39 PM »
I generally like RTJ Jr. courses.

I've always enjoyed Poppy Hills. I think it is/was (have not been back in a while) a great bargain for NCGA members.  A bonus is that its a good walk!

I never liked Shoreline but why would I go to that stinky place (pun intended) when I could play Stanford for $2.50

I agree with Gib about Spanish Bay.  I never enjoyed the holes on the back nine around the guest rooms (I wanted to blow up the tophat 11th green so I'd probably like it these days) but overall it was exhilarating to play. FUN! I've played in in both calm conditions and in 30 mph winds and its always a blast. The little par 3 16th (?) is an excellent very short par 3 (postage stamp copy?).

Long Island National got a lot of discussion last year and would be in the archives if they ever get incorporated on the site.  It's overshaped on an old potato field but the golf ranges form excellent to mediocre (I don't like the holes utilizing the irrigation ponds). It's a Doak 5-

Another solid effort is The Ravin at Sabino Springs in Tuscon.  Again I don't like the holes using the irrigation lakes but the rest of the course is VERY well done.  THere is excellent strategic use of the desert as diagonal cross hazards on a few holes.  Changing the bent greens back to some better variety that could keep them firmer would make the course better.  It's a bit on the pricy side.

Overall, the courses I've seen are interesting and he takes some risks.  The putting surfaces are better then that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BillV

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2002, 02:36:29 PM »
Geoffrey, thanks for the stim of the memory banks.  

The par 3 post it note is 15 at LSB.

I find Spanish Bay a little schizophrenic for my taste with the in and out of wetlands. I am sorry they changed from the original fescue greens, but it is a pretty good course and I played  Poppy within a week of its poening and never since!  (I did like the quirk.)



Raven at Sabino I tend to forget, but i'd rather play there than quite a few in Scotttsdale, that's for sure.

Palo Alto Muni is the best, though.  Right on.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Stettner

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2002, 04:31:44 PM »
Tom:
Yup, it's one and the very same. I played it with Gib, Neal and Goodale about a month ago; there were eight other golfers there that day.
The course is pretty good, probably the second best San Jose club; it's behind Cordevalle. The property was extreme; lots of sidehills studded with rocks, creating some unique golf holes, both good and bad.
The bunkering is quite poor, shallow and totally vapid in shaping. There was one, and I mean one, good bunker on number 15, and I think all in the group were taken aback as it comes out of nowhere.
The green complexes are the strength of the course. Serious rolls, ridges and tilts made for some very interesting bounces, and members will be able to play shots to pins a variety of ways. There were also some very cool chipping areas, though too many of them were in congress with drainage plates.
The routing was pretty good considering the property. As stated, many of the holes are carved into the ridge, and I can't imagine the property as it was. Another problem, however, will come from these hills. On a couple holes, virtually all drives will funnel to one depression in the fairway. Divot city, baby.
One hole, number eight, really stood out. A par four that doglegs uphill, the hole plays through a valley of rock outcroppings. It was very unique.
Call me if you want more, me fingers are a'hurtin.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2002, 06:07:11 PM »
RTJ Jr.'s best work, IMHO, was the Princeville Prince.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2002, 08:48:47 PM »
You NoCal's better be careful!

The Jersey Boys are going to get all over you in the same way they were attacked for saying the same positive things for their buddy Rees!:)

Could this be a territorial thing?



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2002, 08:59:30 AM »
Emperor,

Sorry, this has nothing to do with provincialism. It is simply that in an attempt to tie-in the "look" of a golf course, every hole Rees designs looks the same to me. Jack, even at his most putrid, may repeat the same basic shot, but the green complexes are not horribly repetitive. (Atlantic CC - Exhibit A)

If you sit down and really analyze Jones Jr.'s courses, you'll find they seem to  have an innate balance in the actual shots called for. That is something missing in the work of many modern architects - even a few of our sacred cows.

Sometimes his greens appear to be a collection of ideas instead of a concentric flow, but the same could be said about NGLA.

The other rap he gets (or more accurately, his associates who do the work)  is that his courses are "over-the-top," sometimes unfair etc etc.

Poppycock.

I suppose if you are one of those neanderthals who live and die by the scorecard, then you might have a point. But again, I still cling to the idea that golf is supposed to be a whimsical adventure and not an objective examination.

Maybe that is why some people hate Spanish Bay. #8 is a blind par-3, the 10th and 11th greens require as much luck as skill and the 13th is the hardest short par-3 in existence. You miss, you die. And my posterior begins to pucker every time I have a  score going in anticipation of somehow getting past that Scorpion of a golf hole without having a train wreck.

I was once 2-under par standing on the 13th tee and made an 11 . . . . . but it was my own fault. I twitched that 9-iron just a  bit and down the hill it went to eternal damnation. Every hole cannot be like that, but one or two makes life interesting. Think about that wild Punchbowl on the right side of the 17th green at SB! What juevos!

Isn't that sort of thing what we encourage architects to strive for here in the Treehouse? If Tom  Doak had designed those greens at Spanish Bay (think of the diagonal ridge on #9), all would bow in worship. As a matter of fact, Apache Stronghold's greens are similar in their absolute disregard for conventional schlock.

Give the Devil his due. His stuff is something we would all be proud to call our own.      
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2002, 09:55:41 AM »
Princeville Prince is the best Jr. course I have played and thus far the best I have played in Hawaii. There is also a very good muni on the coast there in Kauai that isn't Jones, but it was a great value. I haven't played Kapalua yet.

I like SB for the most part, except I think the Tophat green is stupid, but otherwise I really enjoyed the course when I
played it.

Jr. designed a decent course up in Marin Co. called Adobe Creek. Like most Jr. courses I have played, there are some outstanding holes with strategy and fun mixed together. I just find he generally has some totally forgettable holes that keep his courses from inspiring me to come back again. Adobe #7 or 16 (they've reversed nines so many times I can't keep track) is one of my favorite holes. The shot requirements, fade off the tee and draw into the green, just strike me as a very harmonious hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.