[Duncan Cheslett]

Take a big metropolitan area - Greater Manchester for instance. The outskirts and suburbs are crawling with golf clubs - most of them struggling to attract sufficiant members.

Now if say three of these clubs at roughly equal distance from each other were to put their heads together and offer each other's members full playing priviliges, the extra cost to each club would be nil - but the benefits to the members of all three clubs would be immense. The percieved value of each member's annual subscription would soar if they had a choice of three courses to play on instead of just the one.

The whole point of such an exercise of course, would be to enable all three clubs to attract more members. Membership of a club which included playing priviliges on two other courses within 30-60 minutes drive would be far more attractive than that at the ordinary club down the road.

Naturally, there would have to be common ground between the clubs in terms of quality of course and facilities, as well as subscription rates and joining fee policy, but these are details.

Has such an idea been tried? If so, does it work? If it hasn't, would it work?

[Adrian_Stiff]

It is a great idea in theory Duncan. The problems you largely answered in your question. It needs three courses of equal quality and in reality thats very hard to achieve and what happens is that Course A gets more play from Courses B and C and gets the zig because Course A members dont play Course B or C enough. You need subscriptions to be the same or else you 'MAKE THE MIX' and create a back door situation where you join Course C but play Course B.

We actually do it with 3 courses (two of these are new trys this year), in fact we today had  4 tee times from the various clubs... 1 club never uses it and we dont really use them, another is infrequent but we had 1 today but we dont really use them, and the other is a neighbour club where its fairly high usuage (Manor House, Castle Coombe). We swap rounds but dont count. On balance the jury is out. Ideally if I was King of golf in the UK, I would say NO COUNTY CARDS, NO 2-4-1s, KEEP JOINING FEES, I THINK I WOULD SAY NO RECRIPROCALS. These things are good for the consumer but its hard for the vendor and these cheapies end up getting subsidised by having to jack the membership fees up to balance the books.

[JMEvensky]

I can't speak for UK clubs,but we did it in my part of the world.

The 4 original member-owned clubs had a reciprocal arrangement in place forever.There were virtually no restrictions--no guest fees,no limited tee times,etc.For all intent,everyone was a member of 4 clubs.But,over the last ~ 20 years,it's started to disappear.

As more options for golf opened (private clubs,daily fee),the world changed.First,no longer was each club's membership so distinct--there was class intermarriage,so to speak.Then,market forces started to work on all clubs--clubs no longer consider it taboo to recruit members of other clubs.Finally,the people who now are members,don't necessarily have the same golf-first attitude toward clubs--hence,the younger members don't see the upside.

Ultimately,at least in my part of the world,the club down the street is seen as a source for members.This doesn't really induce those warm and fuzzy reciprocal feelings.

Here's an experiment for you.Go ask older members of several area clubs if they have friends/golf partners at other area clubs.I'll bet a lot of them say yes.Then,go ask the younger members the same question.I think you'll get a different answer.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I'm a member of a similar scheme, only that our seven courses all have the same owner. Fees are the same everywhere, although one course is clearly better than the rest. But it is somewhat remote, so doesn't get as much play. Most members should be able to get to two courses within 30-45 minutes and four within an hour. All courses have at least 27 holes.

There are no official numbers out there, but I estimate membership amounts to about 6000 - 7000 all in all. If we allow for some discounts there would be a monthly cash flow of almost one million Euros from fees alone. And this does not include guest greenfees or any other type of income.

So I would judge the scheme to be wildly successful, in fact some of the courses were initially independent, but could not compete, being located in the middle of "group territory". They basically went broke and were bought up by the group.

I do realise that this is a different situation than when every course has a different owner. But I see no reason why three independent courses couldn't agree to pool their income and split it down the middle. Then everyone profits equally and there is no inter-group competition. It doesn't matter where you are a member, a couple of the guys who regularly play with me are members at the remote course, but rarely play there. I guess it looks good on their bag tag to be a member of the #3 course in Germany

Ulrich

[Craig Disher]

Avestra Golf Management in Pinehurst/Southern Pines had such an arrangement - one membership gives you access to 6 courses at four different clubs. I'm not sure if this is still available but it was a great offer - Southern Pines CC was one of the clubs.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ulrich your first scenario is fine because its one owner. We have that here with Crown, I think they have 20+. It does work well, the perceived value of a 20 club scheme is good.

3 independents pooling together and splitting the fees will work as well as a plate full of meat placed infront of Lion and being given a letter telling the Lion.... do not eat the meat.

It would work if they all valued their business's the same, had exactly the same borrowings, turnovers, or agreed terms that the three owners had percentages of a new company.... but then that is the first scenario.

[Ulrich Mayring]

If there is no agreement between the clubs other than to offer some sort of reciprocation, then I believe the best option would be to give every member a contingent of ten rounds per year on each of the other courses. This is plenty enough for most and will avoid cannibalism.

Ulrich

[Mark Chaplin]

At RCP we have some courtesy play but this is linked to big events at the various clubs. The reason these schemes are not required at private UK clubs is the simple fact you can play other courses with a greenfee.

I would like to see the odd club swap day where members do a total swap for a day.

[Ben Jarvis]

At RCP we have some courtesy play but this is linked to big events at the various clubs. The reason these schemes are not required at private UK clubs is the simple fact you can play other courses with a greenfee.

I would like to see the odd club swap day where members do a total swap for a day.

Mark,

The Club I am employed at (Thirteenth Beach Golf Links) has a course swap event with Barwon Heads Golf Club, held annually. With each Club located next to one another, it's a very simple exercise and one that the members enjoy immensely.

This is also a very popular exercise held throughout the Melbourne Sandbelt Clubs.

[David_Tepper]

The golf clubs in the Dornoch area (Royal Dornoch, Tain, Brora & Golspie) allow the local members at each of the clubs to play a limited number of rounds per year (3, I think) at each of the other clubs for between 10 & 20 pounds. The only caveat is the rounds must be played in months other than June, July & August. 

[Mark Pearce]

Crail GS has half-price green fee arrangements with three local clubs (lundin, Ladybank and, I think, Scotscraig) and a no-green fee arrangement with Blairgowrie.

Northumberland GC is a member of both the Colt Cociety and the Braid Society and has arrangements with other members of those that allow members to play for a substantially reduced green fee.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The County Card, allows you to play about 1800 golf courses in England and Wales at big discounts, some for just £10. On this side of the fence any green fee less than £20 is basically a loss, but many struggle with maths.

[James Boon]

Duncan,

I like the idea, but most of the courses I know that have reciprocal arrangements tend to be at the higher end, and offering it as a benefit to their members? I know not all courses have them as I have discussed it several time with the secretary down at Burnham where we don't have any and he seems very reluctant to have any such arrangements or join the Colt society which Mark mentions.

However, I just counted and at Notts we have reciprocal arrangements with 10 other UK courses. What I find a little odd though, is that they are all pretty close to home, say within an easy day trip to Leeds or the Lancs coast, and yet to me they would be better off being further afield so say if one was away from the area on holiday or business there would still be a courses where you could play easily and cheaply/for free with a little notice?

Cheers,

James

The County Card, allows you to play about 1800 golf courses in England and Wales at big discounts, some for just £10. On this side of the fence any green fee less than £20 is basically a loss, but many struggle with maths.

Adrian,

But if its £20 that you wouldn't have otherwise received, surely its a bonus? I suppose it depends whether the players would have come to your club with or without the county card?

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

The County Card, allows you to play about 1800 golf courses in England and Wales at big discounts, some for just £10. On this side of the fence any green fee less than £20 is basically a loss, but many struggle with maths.

Adrian,

But if its £20 that you wouldn't have otherwise received, surely its a bonus? I suppose it depends whether the players would have come to your club with or without the county card?

Cheers,

James

Boony

Exactly.  There area lot of clubs I will try on the county card that I wouldn't risk paying full fee because I suspect they aren't worth it in this age of seemingly green fees starting at £35 at a huge percentage of places.  The last one of this ilk I saw was Finham. They want £50.  There is no way I would pay that, but at half price I gave it a go.  The Midlands are probably the poster child for this sort of thinking.  The reason the County Card was included in this year's EGU fees was clubs wanted to make it easier for folks to use it.  Clubs want this business even if it is at knock down fees.  

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

But if its £20 that you wouldn't have otherwise received, surely its a bonus? I suppose it depends whether the players would have come to your club with or without the county card?

Cheers,

James
[/quote] That is how some clubs do view it Boony. Basic poor business practice is how I would mark it. The problem spirals in that the man that normally pays £30, hears about the £15 deal, so you dont get so many £30s in the future. If you are totaly fair everyone should pay a green fee if you play 3 times a week you should pay 6 times more membership than a twice a monther...it does not woirk that way of course and members join because its better value that way. Offer 2-4-1s and County cards (which you can get from joining a £100 a year situation) and they can get the £15 route. if they play 25 times per year they are golfing for £475 as opposed to perhaps £950 for a traditional sub.... these lesser users defect because of the cheaper route thats been introduced. If you say it costs £600,000 to run a golf course and you do 30,000 rounds you need £20 per round in raw terms, if you sell at £19.99 in time you go bust.... simples!!!!

[Jon Earl]

My club has a reciprocal arrangement with 3 of the other older clubs in the Croydon area. We get 3 free rounds on the other courses but only between March and November. It used to be all year but was changed a few years ago as my course was swamped with 'reciprocals' in winter due to its fast-draining nature.

Members at the Addington get de facto membership at the other clubs in the Altonwood group meaning they don't have to pay a green fee and get to enter all the competitions etc. Members at the non-Addington courses get 6 free weekday rounds at the standard courses and a couple of cheap rounds on the Addington. We have picked up a number of new members from the Addington who have left due to the 'pay and play' atmosphere there now and the generally poor condition of the course.

[Sean_A]

Adrian,

But if its £20 that you wouldn't have otherwise received, surely its a bonus? I suppose it depends whether the players would have come to your club with or without the county card?

Cheers,

James

That is how some clubs do view it Boony. Basic poor business practice is how I would mark it. The problem spirals in that the man that normally pays £30, hears about the £15 deal, so you dont get so many £30s in the future. If you are totaly fair everyone should pay a green fee if you play 3 times a week you should pay 6 times more membership than a twice a monther...it does not woirk that way of course and members join because its better value that way. Offer 2-4-1s and County cards (which you can get from joining a £100 a year situation) and they can get the £15 route. if they play 25 times per year they are golfing for £475 as opposed to perhaps £950 for a traditional sub.... these lesser users defect because of the cheaper route thats been introduced. If you say it costs £600,000 to run a golf course and you do 30,000 rounds you need £20 per round in raw terms, if you sell at £19.99 in time you go bust.... simples!!!!
[/quote]

Adrian

I understand your argument that once something is discounted that is the real price.  I know for sure that is my view on wine - just be patient and you will save money.  There are plenty other good wines to drink in the meantime.  The aspect you are forgetting is the one and done player - which is a huge market.  Lots of guys will give a course a go at a discounted rate, but not the rack rate - that is a huge aspect of what value is all about.  The bottom line is if the tee sheet is open the club needs to figure a way first to get more members and persuade the current members to show up.  If not, then there is no choice but to seek outside green fees.  The reality is there are a great many very average to poor courses that are in that predicament - the game is too expensive. 

I am not sure how your numbers work.  But if we are talking about a club with 600 members at £850 a year dues that is £510,000.  The other £90,000 has to come from somewhere.  And if we are being honest, in this climate these average to poor clubs are likely down quite a few members.  Say they are 50 short - that is another £42,500 that needs to be dug up.  If the club can't get 600 guys to buck £850 each (average £34 per round on 25 rounds) how in the hell do expect a visitor to pay £35 or more? 

Ciao 

[Mark Pearce]

The County Card, allows you to play about 1800 golf courses in England and Wales at big discounts, some for just £10. On this side of the fence any green fee less than £20 is basically a loss, but many struggle with maths.

Adrian,

That doesn't sound right, unless the club would otherwise sell that tee time for a higher price and every other tee time is full.  Costs are fixed for a day's operation.  An additional green fee (plus whatever gets spent in the bar and pro shop) is pure profit, isn't it?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean & Mark - If you just say it costs £600,000 to run the course and you do 30,000 rounds of golf you basically need to average £20 per round.... The average member plays 40 times per year, lets say its £800 per year for convienence, lets say they have 600 members thats £480,000. You have 6000 rounds you need to sale at £20 to make up the £120,000 deficit, if you let these go for inside £20 you are not going to balance the books, if you let these go for £15  because thats market price the reality is the membership is too expensive at £800. Not all members play 40 times, some play 60 and are happy some play 25 and in tight times it gets to the stage the member considers a cheaper alternative. This is a situataion clubs have gotten into by creating cheaper ways to play the course. You can analyse a space or gap in the tee times and say a £1 is better than nothing, but you will go bust in the long term. You have to keep margins up or the phone will ring and "my mate dave played the other day for £15, there are 8 of us, can we play?" We call it MAKING THE MIX....you are giving the person the ingredients to make the problem for you. Basically as soon as you discount inside your PPR (price per round x 30,000 = cost to run) it's a problem. Most clubs dont even know their PPR.

Money spent in the pro shop in the UK is usually not the clubs, its the pro's. Any club that 'gets um in' on the basis that they will spend good money on drink and food is dreaming, theres virtually no profit in it. Cost of the beer, staff, tax, there is very little left.

I am not talking even about making profit, its hard to break even.

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,

For someone whose grasp of the economics is usually so strong your reasoning here is surprising.  We're talking here about reciprocal arrangements.  People taking advantage of them have already paid a membership fee somewhere else.  That's a pretty solid response to the "my mate played here last week for £15" argument.  £15 isn't the market price, it's the concession price to someone who has invested in a membership elsewhere.  The additional benefit is that non-members may see this as an added incentive to invest in a membership at your club.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - Read the whole thread.

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,

I have read the whole thread.  I'm responding to a specific post with specific arguments.  I don't understand what point in the rest of the thread qualifies your post to which I am responding.  If there is a flaw in my argument I'd appreciate it if you could point it out rather than reverting to one of your usual approaches when someone challenges your logic ( I recall "read the whole thread" being used by you before).

I should say that I'm trying to engage in a sensible debate on an interesting issue.  If there is something that I'm missing I'd be interested to hear.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - You replied to my comment about County cards..... you can get a county card free in a lucky bag now. I am against selling anything for £15 that costs £20.

We have this same problem everytime you and I post on a thread that you dont understand what I say or vice versa.

I do agree that County cards have drifted a bit from recriprocal agreements and Duncans original.

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,

I didn't read your post (No 20) as a response specifically to County Cards.  If it is then I agree the business logic is very different from reciprocal arrangements.  Do you agree that reciprocal arrangements for club members can be a good thing both for members and clubs?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - I think the theory is great as I said in post 2. In reality one course gets used more and gets a sour deal and long term those members pay. Taking my analogy to an extreme, if my club had recriprocals with Wentworth then I would think it was great and I would have lots more members too. I think a not nearer than 50 mile reciprocal situation perhaps where 8 or 10 clubs put together something would be a great idea, thats just enough to offer some quality to the membership priviledges yet not dent the coffers.

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