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Phil Benedict

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"Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« on: August 30, 2011, 02:23:28 PM »
This is a quote from a golf blogger.  Is it an accurate statement?  It's certainly the case that the most memorable holes at certain iconic courses (Augusta National, Pebble Beach) have water on them.
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Mark Saltzman

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2011, 02:26:18 PM »
Without thinking too much about it, I would say that this is probably (or likely) true.

I would argue, though, that the signature is generally not the best (or even one of the best) holes on the course, though it may be the prettiest.
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Terry Lavin

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2011, 02:27:28 PM »
You can look back at magazine articles about golf courses or other promotional materials and they invariable feature a water hole.  To me, this is because it's more appealing photographically, but it says nothing about the merits of the hole.  For example, at Beverly, we have one water hole, a shortish par three with a fronting pond.  Magazine coverage of events at Beverly always feature that hole.  Every single time.  It's the 18 handicap hole.  And it ain't the signature hole, let me assure you, but it's the public face of the course as far as publishers are concerned.
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Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2011, 02:38:49 PM »
Therefore courses with no water have no signature hole by definition?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 02:48:40 PM by Jud Tigerman »
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2011, 02:43:47 PM »
I think that is an interesting assessment, but don't necessarily agree...

Jud, as Kingsley is without water - what hole would you say would be its "signature hole"?  I have to say I have never actually thought applying such a tag to one of the holes there before this thread...

Number 1 perhaps?  6?
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Mark Saltzman

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 02:47:45 PM »
Another question: Do many of the great courses have a 'signature' hole?

I suppose Cypress and Pebble do.

I don't think Merion has one.  To me, 5 is the best hole on the course and one of the great par-4s in the world, but is it a signature hole?

Oakmont doesn't have one.

NGLA has a signature windmill, but not a signature hole that I know of.

What of PV, Shinny, WFW, etc?
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Jud_T

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011, 02:49:54 PM »
Chris,

Probably #9 as it's photogenic and the most talked about...
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jay Cox

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2011, 03:00:13 PM »
#3 is Oakmont's signature hole because of the church pews.
#18 is Merion's signature hole because of the quarry.
I would think that #17 is NGLA's signature hole because of the view.
I have no idea which hole it would be at Shinnecock.

What's Augusta's signature hole?  #12?  #13?
Likewise, is Pebble's #7, #8, or #18?
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Phil Benedict

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2011, 03:05:59 PM »
'Signature' hole may be an overly narrow term but some examples might be:

#9 at Yale

#5 at Mid-Ocean

Take your pick between 12, 13, 15 or 16 at ANGC

#16 at Oakland Hills

#16 at Hazeltine

#17 at TPC Sawgrass

I agree with whoever said the way a hole photographs has a lot to do with what comes to be considered the signature hole.
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Tom ORourke

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 03:32:44 PM »
Overall I agree with the concept as water makes the hole more dramatic. However, I think the Road Hole would be a signature hole, if they in fact existed way back in the day. The 10th at Riviera? The 18th at Olympic? 16th at Merion? 18th at Winged Foot? The 5th at Bethpage? I have a feeling that older courses may have great holes that were designed before the term "signature hole" was coined, and they were not looking for drama as much as challenge. Would some of the designers / re-designers of today look to add water to these holes?
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Greg Tallman

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 03:33:29 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on August 30, 2011, 02:49:54 PM
Chris,

Probably #9 as it's photogenic and the most talked about...

Quick - signature hole on Pinehurst #2?
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Mark Saltzman

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 03:39:08 PM »
Quote from: Greg Tallman on August 30, 2011, 03:33:29 PM
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on August 30, 2011, 02:49:54 PM
Chris,

Probably #9 as it's photogenic and the most talked about...

Quick - signature hole on Pinehurst #2?

Not sure... which is the one with the green with the slopes around it? :)
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Adam Lawrence

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 03:39:45 PM »
I _loathe_ the whole 'signature hole' garbage with a passion. What is it supposed to mean? A couple of years ago, when the Twenty Ten course at Celtic Manor opened, they sent out press releases claiming to have six signature holes. Well, why the hell not all eighteen? It is the single most pointless and stupid marketing conceit the golf industry has yet created.
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Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Chris Johnston

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 03:59:33 PM »
Quote from: Adam Lawrence on August 30, 2011, 03:39:45 PM
I _loathe_ the whole 'signature hole' garbage with a passion. What is it supposed to mean? A couple of years ago, when the Twenty Ten course at Celtic Manor opened, they sent out press releases claiming to have six signature holes. Well, why the hell not all eighteen? It is the single most pointless and stupid marketing conceit the golf industry has yet created.

Adam - well said.
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Jud_T

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 04:02:56 PM »
Quote from: Greg Tallman on August 30, 2011, 03:33:29 PM
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on August 30, 2011, 02:49:54 PM
Chris,

Probably #9 as it's photogenic and the most talked about...

Quick - signature hole on Pinehurst #2?

The overrated one on the beach... ;D
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Eric Smith

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 04:03:21 PM »
Almost.

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Greg Tallman

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 04:09:28 PM »
In all honesty why do some get your panties in a wad over such things?

By definition it suggests a signatuire hole is one that serves to identify or distinguish the course of which it is a part of. The golfing public uses such apparently silly means through which to identify and discuss a course.

Is it overplayed by the marketing set? In many cases sure but as is the case at Cypress, Augusta... etc. it works and thus why not? More to your guys point is the siilly fear the marketing folks have of not having a "signature" hole and thus just a collection of good holes... nothing great. That is the reality... signature has come to mean great in marketing lingo... even if it could not be farther from the truth.

When asked what our signature hole is I simply respond that we have to many great holes and post card settings to single out one hole. Sometimes the truth helps.
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Greg Tallman

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2011, 04:10:39 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on August 30, 2011, 04:02:56 PM
Quote from: Greg Tallman on August 30, 2011, 03:33:29 PM
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on August 30, 2011, 02:49:54 PM
Chris,

Probably #9 as it's photogenic and the most talked about...

Quick - signature hole on Pinehurst #2?

The overrated one on the beach... ;D

At times your wit leaves me in search of a map.
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Adam Lawrence

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2011, 04:18:52 PM »
Quote from: Greg Tallman on August 30, 2011, 04:09:28 PM
In all honesty why do some get your panties in a wad over such things?

By definition it suggests a signatuire hole is one that serves to identify or distinguish the course of which it is a part of. The golfing public uses such apparently silly means through which to identify and discuss a course.

Is it overplayed by the marketing set? In many cases sure but as is the case at Cypress, Augusta... etc. it works and thus why not? More to your guys point is the siilly fear the marketing folks have of not having a "signature" hole and thus just a collection of good holes... nothing great. That is the reality... signature has come to mean great in marketing lingo... even if it could not be farther from the truth.

When asked what our signature hole is I simply respond that we have to many great holes and post card settings to single out one hole. Sometimes the truth helps.

Greg - I know what you mean, but if you'd had as many press releases that just blether on about the course's so-called signature hole as I have, or sat in quite so many press conferences where clueless reporters can't think of anything better to ask than 'which is the signature hole?', I reckon you might share my distaste....
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Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

jonathan_becker

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2011, 04:23:11 PM »
Philly Country....the club says 5 is the signature hole....tons of water
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Greg Tallman

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2011, 04:28:41 PM »
Quote from: Adam Lawrence on August 30, 2011, 04:18:52 PM
Quote from: Greg Tallman on August 30, 2011, 04:09:28 PM
In all honesty why do some get your panties in a wad over such things?

By definition it suggests a signatuire hole is one that serves to identify or distinguish the course of which it is a part of. The golfing public uses such apparently silly means through which to identify and discuss a course.

Is it overplayed by the marketing set? In many cases sure but as is the case at Cypress, Augusta... etc. it works and thus why not? More to your guys point is the siilly fear the marketing folks have of not having a "signature" hole and thus just a collection of good holes... nothing great. That is the reality... signature has come to mean great in marketing lingo... even if it could not be farther from the truth.

When asked what our signature hole is I simply respond that we have to many great holes and post card settings to single out one hole. Sometimes the truth helps.

Greg - I know what you mean, but if you'd had as many press releases that just blether on about the course's so-called signature hole as I have, or sat in quite so many press conferences where clueless reporters can't think of anything better to ask than 'which is the signature hole?', I reckon you might share my distaste....


As I suggested before I am not a fan but can see that it can serve a purpose iat times.
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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2011, 04:43:28 PM »
Quote from: Eric Smith on August 30, 2011, 04:03:21 PM
Almost.



Eric,

What the f*** is that?

 :)
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Kalen Braley

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2011, 04:45:54 PM »
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Anthony Gray

Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2011, 04:47:58 PM »


  Do you remember when Notah Begay played out of the water on the road hole?

  Anthony

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Eric Smith

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Re: "Signature Holes Almost Always Have Water in Play."
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2011, 04:57:16 PM »
Duncan,

That is the Long Bay Club in Myrtle Beach. A fairly popular golf course in the late 80's / early 90's. The photo I posted has been seen in numerous publications over the years and represents the club's signature hole in a market dominated by courses with water features.
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