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Scott Warren

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MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« on: August 29, 2011, 04:04:01 AM »
I had one of those great days of golf on Saturday - a morning round at Newcastle followed by a visit to Magenta Shores, which I have wanted to play for years. David Elvins was a fantastic wingman.

I had played Newcastle before - once, more than a decade ago - and it was even better than I remembered and even more enjoyable for the country atmosphere of the club. 4-7 has to be one of the best stretches of golf in Aus (and 1-3 and 8-13 are pretty fantastic too, with a few highlights in the closing stretch as well).

So fresh off the back of a great morning at Newcastle (where Elvins showed why he ought to be playing off much less than 14!), we arrived at Magenta.

I hadn't heard or read much about the place beforehand, other than that a lot of people have quiet enjoyed it with a caveat or two and that Golf Australia magazine rated it #25 in the country. Having now played it, I'd agree with both those sentiments. I'd place it just behind the likes of Peninsula (North) but ahead of, say, Yarra Yarra and I really enjoyed myself with the exception of a few factors that grated on me.

There's some pictures and individual hole discussion below, but on the whole, breaking it down to drives, approaches and greens, I'd say:

Drives: The course repeatedly asked for a draw off a distant bunker on the RHS, either around or near a LHS bunker - often with the land assisting that shape. The driving zones also seemed to lack much benefit for hugging the hazard, with the man-made undulations equally severe in the "ideal" spots, reducing the benefit of hitting the ball there.

The holes were also generally quite narrow, with three holes squeezed into a parcel suited to two, or two in a 1-1.5-fairway corridor, almost all the way through the front nine, while the back is largely one-hole corridors through what will eventually be a residential area (glad I got there before that happened) and is wider.

Ross Watson doesn't really seem to believe in building drive bunkers that the golfer can challenge/attempt to carry heroically, it's more a case of sidling up to them as the ball rolls out. Between R. Sydney, Bonnie Doon, Concord and now Magenta Shores, I can't think of more than three or four examples.

At Magenta, it seems often driving near the fairway bunkering is both formulaic and not greatly beneficial.

Approaches: This is the course's major strength. The par threes are all quality holes, IMO, offering great variety - which is probably just as well given the course was largely man-made. As with Watson's work elsewhere, courses mentioned above, the par threes are probably the highlight.

And at Magenta Shores, if we disregard the drives on the par fours and fives, they almost all present an approach shot that is at the very least extremely appealing visually. They are fun shots to play and to look at. There is some advantage to be had from lateral placement.

The bunkering at the greens is huge in scale and is extremely appealing. The size looks great, the shaping is pleasant to the eye - another highlight of the course.

Greens: The greens are quite wild in places and will present some challenging and adventurous putts, but it seems they haven't really been designed with consideration for the hole at large.

In lots of cases, the wild undulations don't seem to take into account the shot you'll be playing into the green and don't set up so that the golfer who has played the riskier shot off the tee is rewarded. In isolation they have some great features, but those features don't seem all that well combined with the rest of the hole.

There's also some fairly over the top greenside runoff shaping that I might start another thread about because it is best looked at alongside comparisons from other courses.

Reading that back it seems a bit overly negative. Magenta Shores has some really fun holes and a heap of really attractive shots, and looking back at the course guide it seems some of my criticism of the fairway bunkering might have been addressed by playing the middle tees, as someone who carries a driver about 215-220m

The course:

The first head-scratching moment was at the par five 2nd (523m/493m - which uses up all the oceanfront land - and for the last 300m of that you are playing at a slight angle away from the coast and so you need to look away from the golf to see the ocean. And further to that, the tee is built so low down that the tee shot view, despite being toward the water - with the town of The Entrance off in the distance, doesn't really take in the ocean at all. There's a dune 10m to the right (man made) that offers great water views: why not build the teeing area up to give it the same feature?



This view of the approach to the 3rd (404m/391m) from between the bunkers that sit either side of the drive. A celebration of electricity and mobile communication!


The green at the 186m/169m par three 4th sits in an amphitheatre with a sever tier stepping up in the middle of the green. You can miss short right and leave a fairly easy chip. The green gathers from the left and there is a really vicious back right pin position.



The 6th is a par four of 314m/284m - the green is visible over the RHS bunkers. For mine it's a more engaging hole from just back of the 245m ladies' tee, which leaves a carry of about 200-210m over the bunkers to try to challenge the green. From further back, you're going to be leaving yourself a pitch anyway, so why try to bite off any of the shorter bunkers and take a risk? Plus, the green has some really tough recoveries around it that you're more likely to encounter if you have a crack and miss. The green is so large that a miss with a wedge is going to be tough.



Had to snap this from left of the green. Advertising board, cart path, housing... how's the serenity?!


The 7th, the second of the par threes, plays at 135m/117m. Offers a bail out short right and a really daring line to challenge the upper back left pin position.


Two shots below of the approach to the par five 8th (474m/444m). An aesthetically pleasing hole, but for me too narrow to tempt you to be daring.



The Redanish par three 12th (nothing worth seeing really on 9-10, though 11 does offer some nice risk reward and a pretty green) plays at 165m/137m and the ball will kick forward and left from over the front right bunker.


Approach to the par four 13th (326m/307m) after a blind drive over a hill and between two trees that sit within the fairway.


Approach to the par four 14th (381m/356m) - a dogleg left protected by a bunker inside the dogleg.


Par three 15th (124m/119m) has a slightly angled green with some strong movement and deep pockets of fairway long.


Par four 16th (392m/375m). The preferred line is from the left of the fairway bunkers, which sit between 174m and 232m from the back tee. The greenfront shaping also rewards a shot from that left-hand side - something I'd have liked to see more of on the course.



Looking back up the par four 17th (dogleg left, 361m/338m). Such a pity that view will eventually be blighted by houses. (On this hole we sped past two six-balls, including a midget, smoking weed and chugging bourborn while they played. You can't make this shit up!)


A view from the driving zone of the par five 18th (550m/533m). It seemed to me that by carrying those lay-up bunkers and ending up on the left you have a third shot over a deep bunker, whereas if you lay-up short and right of it you have a clear 100m shot up the unguarded length of the green.

Mark_F

Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 05:01:40 AM »
It looks both dreadfully over-bunkered and quite ill at ease with the land, Scott.

Has Watson ruined anything at Newcastle, or is that Masterplan of his toilet paper?

Kevin Pallier

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 09:41:57 AM »
Scott

I agree - it's the best Watson course I've seen but for mine Mark does raise a valid point - it is over bunkered in areas.

I like the small transition into the bushland area as well.

Sean_A

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 03:43:33 PM »
Scott

Thanks for the tour.  It doesn't look like my cup of tea, but there still looks to be a lot of interesting stuff.  As mentioned above, I am not sure why such a humpty bumpty site is so heavily bunkered.  IMO less would have been so much more here. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matthew Mollica

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 04:45:33 PM »
Nice review Scott. I hink you've nailed it with the comments regarding routing, drive challenge, and Mark's comments regarding bunkering certainly ring true. How were the fescue roughs, particularly on that narrow up and back segment of 8 9 and 10?

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 05:53:10 PM »
Mark: No work underway at Newcastle yet.

KP and Sean: You're on the mark about the abundance of bunkering on such land, and it is perhaps all the more worthy of mention given the rumpled landscape was created from scratch - if there was a desire for bunkers to be so prevalent, the land could have been toned down a bit. I didn't take a picture of the tenth fairway, but it is like a mogul run.

Matt: The rough between 8, 9 and 10 was down and playable. Dave and I both thought that allowed the holes to work well enough. I wouldn't want to play those holes with the rough up.

David_Elvins

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 07:48:05 PM »
Ross Watson likes to test every facet of your game.  At royal Sydney he tests your ability to hit faded approach shots.  At magenta shores he tests your ability to hit your drives with a draw.  I haven't been to kooindah waters yet but suspect the putting would be difficult.

I don't quite rank magenta shores as high as Scott but agree with the general sentiment.

It is impossible to believe that 400+ metres if beach side land could be used worse than it was on rhe 2nd hole.  I suspect that is what happens when you prioritise having a 36 36 routing with 2 par 3s and 2 par 5s on each nine. 

The course is really quite narrow in places, the 10th is ridiculously narrow. 

The bunkers look fantastic.  The position of some leaves you scratching your head.  On every par 5 there are second shot bunkrs that are not close to where you would want to place your second shot.

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark_F

Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2011, 03:03:52 AM »
Mark: No work underway at Newcastle yet.

Scott,

I am perturbed by your use of the word "yet".  Are Newcastle still planning on letting the NSW version of Tony Cashmore loose on their fine site?

Shame, Newcastle, shame.

David_Elvins

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2011, 05:01:27 AM »
Mark: No work underway at Newcastle yet.

Scott,

I am perturbed by your use of the word "yet".  Are Newcastle still planning on letting the NSW version of Tony Cashmore loose on their fine site?

Shame, Newcastle, shame.

Mark,

As I understand it,  several initiatives from the masterplan have been implemented and have improved th course.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Scott Warren

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 05:23:38 AM »
Dave - you mean the tree/undergrowth clearing? I'm not sure whether that was part of the masterplan. Hopefully Andrew Summerell might chime in and set us straight.

Mark_F

Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 05:56:44 AM »
Mark,

As I understand it,  several initiatives from the masterplan have been implemented and have improved th course.

David,

The only way Ross Watson could improve a course is to keep driving past the front gate.

Andrew Summerell

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 08:47:21 AM »
The tree clearing has been going on for the last couple of years, basically done by a small group of members one day a week. It's merely been widening some of the corridors & clearing the vision on some holes.

The bunkering style that Watson suggested in his masterplan for Newcastle is reminiscent of what he has built at Magenta Shores, although a little milder.

John Mayhugh

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 08:48:55 AM »
The only way Ross Watson could improve a course is to keep driving past the front gate.

Hmmm.  I take it you're not a fan?   :D



Magenta Shores is interesting looking in many spots, but wow those are a lot of bunkers.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 02:11:29 PM »
Andrew,

Have they cleared the trees at 5 and 6?? - you know, the ones that ruined those potentially great holes.

Andrew Summerell

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 05:50:20 PM »
Andrew,

Have they cleared the trees at 5 and 6?? - you know, the ones that ruined those potentially great holes.

Not fully. The line off the tee on 5 is a little wider & they have widened the corridor on 6 by about 7 or 8  metres in pockets, but not going as far as they should.

A few years back I found an old 150m stake that was still in the ground from I believe the mid 70's when they first started using markers at the club. It was 18m into the ti tree, which give you a fair idea of how far they should clear.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2011, 02:21:04 AM »
Andrew,
I suppose the hole would be far too easy if they cleared left of six!! No doubt that is the argument - at least it was when I spoke at the club dinner five or six years ago.
Of course it was the argument of a good player who presumably sees golf as a straight hitting contest.

David_Elvins

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2011, 02:59:51 AM »
Mike,

I am not overly familiar with the course but the 6th has been significantly cleared on both the left and the right.

You can see all of the green from the tee.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Scott Warren

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2011, 03:00:37 AM »
John: There ARE a lot of bunkers. In 100 or so holes I have golf I have played that Ross Watson has either designed or co-designed (R. Syd, Concord, 11 holes at Bonnie Doon, Magenta Shores, Terrey Hills and Horizons) there is a grand total of ONE bunkerless hole. One! (and it has deep grass bunkers both sides of the front of the green on a hole that asks for a mid to long iron approach)

David, Andrew, Mike: I have a set of pics from Saturday at Newcastle that I will try to get posted tonight.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2011, 03:20:44 AM »
Scott,
I assume that hole is the long four on the back nine -12 or  13 I think. We used to play a different order in the 1980s when it was the 15th.
Those grass bunkers were sand bunkers a few years ago when we played the Senior Open there. We came back the next year and they were grassed.

Dave,

Those two holes - 5 and 6 - are tremendous holes but last time i saw them they needed some clearing.

Scott Warren

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2011, 04:05:10 AM »
Yeah, it's the 12th now.

10 is the par four dogleg right, bunkered on the outside, that was being discussed on TGF a while back - an in-house job that replaced two par threes. Then 11 is a par five over a crest that kinks right and 12 is the hole in question - before that sketchy little uphill short four that hugs the boundary fence.

Andrew Summerell

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2011, 08:01:22 AM »
Mike,

I am not overly familiar with the course but the 6th has been significantly cleared on both the left and the right.

You can see all of the green from the tee.

In my previous post I said we started clearing a couple of years ago. When I thought about it later, I realised it started 3 or 4 years ago.

David, the left side needs to be cleared further up the hill in the area between 100m & 150m out from the green to entice golfers, especially those who can drive the ball longer than 210m, to take on the left side of the fairway for a better angle to the green. If you look at pre 1980 photos of the hole this area was quite sparse & more importantly, there was virtually no ti tree towards the edge of the tree line.

Scott Warren

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2011, 08:25:27 AM »
Tom Ramsay's Great Australian Golf Courses shows some great old pics of Newcastle.

RichMacafee

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Re: MAGENTA SHORES: The best Ross Watson course I've played
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2011, 10:06:32 PM »
Scott,

Surprised by your choice of the word 'fun' in association with Magenta. To me it is the epitome of a new course on a grand scale that is anything but fun.

I'm glad I played it, and didn't hate it all, but it's a golf course that one game is enough IMO.

I couldn't think of many worse golf courses to be a member at and play every week, which is one true test of a good golf course IMO. It would become very tiresome very quickly and become a real grind week to week.
"The uglier a man's legs are, the better he plays golf. It's almost law" H.G.Wells.