Second Symposium On Affordable Golf

[Richard_Mandell]

We have finalized the agenda for the second Symposium On Affordable Golf.  The dates are Monday, November 7th and the following morning for golf at Southern Pines CC.  The goal after last year was to double our attendance of 75 last year.  Visit www.symposiumonaffordablegolf.com to register now. 

Thanks

[Steve Kline]

That looks like a fantastic program. Unfortunately I scheduled to be in L.A.

[Ben Voelker]

I have been a under $50 golfer my entire life, usually more like under $30.

I do not want to be a sourpuss and I think this event is exactly what golf needs, but doesn't having a super from a $200+ course (Pasatiempo) speaking at an affordable golf symposium seem a bit out of touch?

[Richard_Mandell]

On the surface, yes, it seems counter-intuitive to have a super from a $200+ course speaking at the Symposium On Affodable Golf but some of the things he is doing at Pasatiempo are unique and speak to the concept of lowering expenses, finding new ways to accomplish things, and minimizing excess maintenance. Whether they decide to pass on the savings to the consumer is up to them, right?

We can't control what some clubs charge, but if there is something to be learned anywhere, we ought to listen.  At least that is my thought process.  Look at Pinehurst No. 2 - they have done some major facelifting and truning back of the clock, so to speak, and if you didn't know it was Pinehurst and didn't know the ungodly fees they charge, most people would prop No. 2 up as a place that has transcended the "green" standards and found a way to re-invent themselves in a cost-effective way.

If known clubs do things that speak to minimizing maintenance costs or maincured areas, or to speed up play, or to make the game more enjoyable, then maybe the lesser known clubs who feel they have to stay within the mainstream thinking may realize that it is ok to do something different too.

Let's just hope they don't see it as an opportunity to raise costs.  We can't control what some people charge, but we can learn from many places.

[Willie_Dow]

Count me in Richard.  I got a lot of ideas from the first Symposium, many of them confirm the efforts put forth at Pinehurst #2, and how they apply to other courses.

Lower fees will follow if costs can be reduced.

[Kris Shreiner]

Count me in as well Richard. I'm beating the drum amongst my circle and should have a couple of additional "soldiers"  contacting you to attend the Symposium.

To all,

What Richard and his team presented last year was a stimulating and engaging series of presentations with very inclusive,  fluid exchanges. The event was crisply run and everyone seemed to feel it was certainly worthwhile. The social gathering that evening and golf the following day was a superb cap to a productive Symposium.

It takes a significant amount of effort to pull of an event of the quality Rich and his cohorts delivered. Ran's, and other's participation was an added bonus. I deeply appreciate what occurred last year thanks to Richard's efforts and strongly urge those of you who can to attend. Remember, there are different models of affordable golf. Even some higher-ticket courses are employing resource-saving and environmentally responsible methods that ALL of us can benefit from implementing. That is the beauty of this event. Everyone can contribute something and gain from knowledge shared with others.

Take care, hope to meet you there, and I look forward to another wonderful presentation.

Cheers,
Kris

[Kyle Harris]

I have been a under $50 golfer my entire life, usually more like under $30.

I do not want to be a sourpuss and I think this event is exactly what golf needs, but doesn't having a super from a $200+ course (Pasatiempo) speaking at an affordable golf symposium seem a bit out of touch?

Isn't Pasatiempo normally very crowded?

There's luxury pricing and then there's demand pricing.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm with Ben on this one.

Just call it what it is...how to make more money or survive in this economy thru lower maintainance costs/better practices.

To label it "Affordable Golf" and then say "if courses don't pass those savings on to the customer its up to them" in the same sentence seems disingenuous at best.

This is like having a conference on "Affordable Shoes - Lessons learned from outsourcing overseas".  Everyone knows what that really means.

[Andy Stamm]

If Pasatiempo can come and say we've been able to maintain (or improve) our conditioning while reducing costs by X amount through the implementation of Y procedures that you might be able to implement at your course, I think they deserve a seat at the table, even if they haven't lowered their fees and are far from 'affordable' golf.

Given their location, provenance, etc. they may be somewhat isolated from the pricing pressures and overall difficulties other courses face, but sharing their hard earned knowledge that might help others is very admirable in my book.

Does anybody know the price structure of their memberships? It seems to me that they're promoting at least more affordable (if not totally 'affordable') golf memberships by allowing outside play. If their model is anything like the UK model, that outside play is probably going a long way to making golf more affordable for members. And this is an idea that I would really like to see spread.

[RJ_Daley]

Congratulations to Richard and last year's and this year participants.  They seem to be among the most out front and committed professionalsI in the golf industry.  I think that the notion that having the super of a high end club show and tell the experiences they have had with lowering costs is important as has been said, if only to demonstrate efforts and techniques that may work at other clubs and courses open to the public.  Of course the decision to actually employ cost lowering techniques and actually lower prices to golfers or dues and costs to members, is the obvious goal.  But, one can't ignore that if there are cost savings in the face of drastically strapped clubs and course enterprises in the face of the poor economy of these late years, that bringing up profitability in balance and getting back on a firm footing is understandable. 

Now, if increased lower costs being learned from these symposiums going forward, after recovery, still doesn't lead to lowering the consumer costs, then I think the market of members and golfers may punish those that don't achieve balance in cost savings and passing on those benefits.

At any rate, well done Richard and participants, and thank you for these fine efforts to make a difference.

[Kris Shreiner]

Andy S.,

I know several members, and as I'm not one, I won't comment on ther exact membership costs. I wil say that Pasatiempo is located in an area with one of the highest cost-of-living figures in the world, yet their downstroke is not nearly as extortionate as many other clubs that aren't on it's level. They also allow some outside play, which in my view puts them in very select company stateside, in giving folks, albeit for a somewhat princely tarrif, the chance to access a superb, private-member golf course. Bravo Pasi!

Their unique goat-browsing initiative, to clear out and maintain the ravines and barrancas on their site, has had very productive results and is a novel , but extremely practical solution to the issue. As fire-safety concerns are also an annual fact of life in the often parched interludes that can occur even in Northern California, they resolve what would become excessive fuel detritus were it left alone.

For a classy club that is Pasatiempo, using goats, in plain sight no less, speaks to their utilitarian approach to how they do most things there...I believe the Doctor would be pleased and smile in satisfaction, knowing the club is guiding it's future in ways he admired.

Cheers,
Kris

[Andy Stamm]

Thanks Kris.

I lived in SF for a while, so I know just how prosperous the area is! But, I'd have to guess the membership cost compares favorably with SFGC, Cypress, Olympic or Pasatiempo's other piers (and lesser clubs) precisely because outside play brings in additional revenue. And, if that means that I can play there at a rate, while not 'affordable', that is certainly reasonable as compared to Pebble or Half Moon Bay, even better. I'd forgotten about the goats, which are fantastic. Anyway, I think we're in full agreement; full marks to Pasatiempo!

And back to the thread topic, I think these ideas mean that Pasatiempo deserves a seat at the table for a discussion of affordable golf, even if their membership costs and green fees don't render golf at the club exactly affordable by the conventional definition.

[Richard_Mandell]

To label it "Affordable Golf" and then say "if courses don't pass those savings on to the customer its up to them" in the same sentence seems disingenuous at best.

Dear Kalen:

I didn't call anything at Pasatiempo "Affordable Golf".  I said, "some of the things he is doing at Pasatiempo are unique and speak to the concept of lowering expenses, finding new ways to accomplish things, and minimizing excess maintenance."  I also stand by my comment about their choice to pass savings on or not.  I am not interested in judging any club's financial decisions.  I will leave that to others.  What we are trying to accomplish at the Symposium is showing new ways to look at things and if someone leanrs something,  even better.

I think you should make the effort to come to the Symposium this year. Wear some affordable shoes.

[Ben Voelker]

If Pasatiempo can come and say we've been able to maintain (or improve) our conditioning while reducing costs by X amount through the implementation of Y procedures that you might be able to implement at your course, I think they deserve a seat at the table, even if they haven't lowered their fees and are far from 'affordable' golf.

Given their location, provenance, etc. they may be somewhat isolated from the pricing pressures and overall difficulties other courses face, but sharing their hard earned knowledge that might help others is very admirable in my book.

Does anybody know the price structure of their memberships? It seems to me that they're promoting at least more affordable (if not totally 'affordable') golf memberships by allowing outside play. If their model is anything like the UK model, that outside play is probably going a long way to making golf more affordable for members. And this is an idea that I would really like to see spread.

I'm sorry, but this is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.

As far as the US goes, a private membership club is hardly affordable golf, certainly not in the places I have been exposed to and Pasatiempo does not fit the bill.  While I recognize the cost of living in that area is high, there are examples of courses that are relatively inexpensive that offer an affordable golf experience (say under $50).

I am hardly criticizing Pasatiempo for their cost structure.  If they can charge $250 for a round of golf and be profitable, more power to them.  But, let's not act as if that is affordable because it is not for the vast majority of the population.  While they may be implementing measures that provide cost savings, the question has to be raised at what initial cost.  They obviously have much greater capital at their disposal to implement something that may save them money in the long run that is out of reach for a true affordable facility.

If they have something to offer that would fit within the financial means of an affordable facility (both short and long term), fair enough.  I still am unsure why a true model affordable facility would not be a better fit in sharing their knowledge and not come across as out of touch.  Rustic Canyon immediately comes to mind and is in an area that has at least a comparable cost of living and I am sure there are many other examples in other parts of the country.

[Andy Stamm]

Ben,

Fair enough. What if Pasatiempo could say, our cost structure is such that we could charge $40 a pop and be profitable, because of our maintenance procedures, etc.? You can implement this model as well, which should help you, and you now have a model to follow, which might help you avoid some pitfalls that we encountered. We've decided to price our golf at $200 a pop because that's our profit maximizing point (because we're in a unique position because of our quality, history, location), but we are unique in that regard. Does a course like this need to charge much less (and therefore make much less money) in order to have a voice, here?

On the other hand, I've played a municipal for about 15 years now that is very affordable. But, it loses money every year and wouldn't be there, but for the fact that it's subsidized by its public owner. It's always been (and will be) affordable, and it's not going anywhere, but is that a model worthy of study?

[Kris Shreiner]

Ben,

That is one club representative from a host of speakers. If you read Rich's comments, his take is more to the essence of this Symposium. The group isn't just interested in a strict definition of "affordable golf." The event is about sharing insights and practices that might ENABLE the game to be presented in a more cost-effective manner. What one takes away from it and how they impliment what might be learned is up to them.

I admire Richard's efforts to AT LEAST get the discussion started with a very INCLUSIVE approach! One that has certainly not been conducted by anyone else in the way last year's event was conducted...it was superbly done...WITHOUT some big conference fee and all the rest of it.

If you make the effort to come to one, I believe you would come away with a much better understanding about the benefits of such a gathering. By the way, Wild Horse, a Rustic Canyon-type, affordable golf peer, was represented last year.

Cheers,
Kris

[Ben Voelker]

Ben,

Fair enough. What if Pasatiempo could say, our cost structure is such that we could charge $40 a pop and be profitable, because of our maintenance procedures, etc.? You can implement this model as well, which should help you, and you now have a model to follow, which might help you avoid some pitfalls that we encountered. We've decided to price our golf at $200 a pop because that's our profit maximizing point (because we're in a unique position because of our quality, history, location), but we are unique in that regard. Does a course like this need to charge much less (and therefore make much less money) in order to have a voice, here?

On the other hand, I've played a municipal for about 15 years now that is very affordable. But, it loses money every year and wouldn't be there, but for the fact that it's subsidized by its public owner. It's always been (and will be) affordable, and it's not going anywhere, but is that a model worthy of study?

Andy,

If Pasatiempo could say that, then certainly, they have all rights to be there.  I am obviously less informed about this than many other (surely including Richard) and will yield to more informed people.  They would be a much better model than the local muni that is bleeding cash every year.  Surely there are local munis that do quite well and it would be interesting to hear that side of things as well.  I did notice there is a speaker from Torrey Pines, but that hardly qualifies as a typical muni given its tour pedigree and non-San Diegan greens fees.

Kris,

I agree completely with much of what you are saying.  I think the fact that this event is even happening is a plus for golf.  I appreciate that the work that goes into this must be immense and not something that many people are interested in undertaking.  However, I also do not think that I bit of healthy discussion and criticism is off limits.  My point is mostly about perception, about which a number of pages were devoted from the White Pages from the 2010 event.



Richard,

Thank you for taking your time to organize this event.  I really do think it is important to the future of the game and I appreciate the effort you are making.  I do not mean to be too harsh of a critic.  For the record, I would like to attend one of these sometime soon if work and personal life permits.

[Tony Ristola]

How about selling a video? I'm sure a number of clubs and individuals would be interested. If they can buy a vid for $50 let's say (you choose the price point), and they save a couple thousand by implementing an idea or three, it was well worth the investment, and good for golf.

Good luck with the Symposium. To think about having this 15-years ago would have been laughable, wouldn't it?

[Kris Shreiner]

Ben,

It's all good champ! I look forward to seeing you at one sometime.

Tony,

If something like this had begun 15 years ago, some folks could have saved themselves a lot of money and never ventured into the golf "business." Of course, most have to experience pain and stupidity firsthand to learn their lessons. I've been guilty of this myself, but generally not in golf-related matters as I never had that kind of money to burn.

Cheers,
Kris

[Tony Ristola]

Ben,
I agree, there should be some type of discussion as to why Muni's and others fail, so people know where they should not go. That is just as important, or more important as understanding where clubs and potential investors should go. Someone is writing about that subject this minute.

Kris,
I think the symposium 15-years ago would have been about cashing in on your "champaign wishes and caviar dreams".

Luckily I recalled the S&L debacle and saw what happened to the Finnish economy almost overnight in 1990 -91 before opening my own shop. I watched a family of good, hard working folks overextend their project a mere few inches too far, almost getting to the finish line but instead lost a lifetime of putting their noses to the grindstone after the USSR collapsed and the Finnish economy with it. Had they not extended those few inches they most likely would have made it through the rough patch. The speed of the change from milk and honey to pure survival mode was astonishing for me at the time. Except for the few very adept economic forecasters out there, nobody could see the potential tsunami and nobody could believe it would happen (the fall of the USSR was a shocker), just as only a mere few could see how the government through Freddie, Fannie and the ridiculous laws that accompanied it could wreak worldwide havoc today, and of those that did issue warnings, and especially those that did so before Congress... were browbeaten. It pays to prepare, but there are no guarantees... there's always an element of risk... managing it is the key.

These symposiums really should be taped, even in the most amateurish way, for it is the content that matters... because there will be a time when this current economic mess will be forgotten, and (good) affordable golf is the only sure way to grow the game.

[Rob_Waldron]

Is anyone interested in trying to play on Saturday Nov 5 or Sunday Nov 6. I have a starting time at Dormie Club on Sunday at 12:45. Need two players.

[Richard_Mandell]

We have over forty signed up for the Symposium so far.  My goal is 150.  We had 75 last year.  I need help getting to that number so please spread the word beyond just this website.  It is free, hotel rooms are affordable, superintendents get CEUs, golf pros get CEUs.

The more the merrier so please make an effort to sign up and be a part of the Second Symposium on Affordable Golf.

www.symposiumonaffordablegolf.com

Also, if you haven't taken our survey, please do.  You will find a link to the survey on the home page of the Symposium website.

Thanks.

[Steve Okula]

Their unique goat-browsing initiative, to clear out and maintain the ravines and barrancas on their site, has had very productive results and is a novel , but extremely practical solution to the issue. As fire-safety concerns are also an annual fact of life in the often parched interludes that can occur even in Northern California, they resolve what would become excessive fuel detritus were it left alone.

Just for the record, golf course goat grazing is nothing new. Goats were used to clear underbrush at TPC Sawgrass (coincidentally, another high-end facility) in the early '80's.

[Matt Day]

We have over forty signed up for the Symposium so far.  My goal is 150.  We had 75 last year.  I need help getting to that number so please spread the word beyond just this website.  It is free, hotel rooms are affordable, superintendents get CEUs, golf pros get CEUs.

The more the merrier so please make an effort to sign up and be a part of the Second Symposium on Affordable Golf.

www.symposiumonaffordablegolf.com

Also, if you haven't taken our survey, please do.  You will find a link to the survey on the home page of the Symposium website.

Thanks.

Richard
for future events is there any thought in regards to holding it before or after the golf show (not the pga show), or does the timing in February have an impact

I personally would make the effort to attend if that was the case, maybe a way of getting a few more international attendees?

[Richard_Mandell]

Dear Matt:

That is a thought but I am afraid that most people wouldn't want to justify another day or two after being gone for at least two or three days afterward.  There would still be extra travel involved for most unless we could catch people driving through.  Early November seemed to be the time when we weren't interfering with the busy seasons or getting into the trade show season (which starts in mid-November here in the Carolinas).