[Michael George]

Tom:

Thanks for the pub for Cleveland.  I have long wondered why many of Northeast Ohio's best don't get more recognition in the rankings.  

(1) Brookside - one of Ross' best designs - has to be the most underrated golf course in America.  It may be Ohio's best course with no exagerration.  If you have not played this golf course, put it high on your bucket list.  

(2) Country Club - an unbelievable walk in the park with great, great par 3s and 17 as one of the best holes in the world.
  
(3) Kirtland - one very special back 9.

(4) Canterbury - again right there with Kirtland and Country Club.  (2)-(4) are very special places.

Plus, the depth is really good with Firestone(S,N,W), Sand Ridge, Pepper Pike, Westwood, Shaker, Sharon, Little Mountain, Fowlers Mil and Mayfield.

Pittsburgh is also very underrated with Oakmont, Fox Chapel, Pittsburgh Field Club, Laurel Valley, Rolling Rock.

Also, while rarely mentioned, Charleston, SC is a great town for golf with Yeamans Hall, Kiawah (Ocean, Osprey and Turtle Point), Charleston CC and several others.

[Michael George]

I have played a lot of golf in Detroit and I have found it actually to be one of the most disappointing cities for golf (based on its history and population).  

Oakland Hills has some of the best greens that I have ever played, but other than the original Ross holes is pretty boring tee to green.  That being said, I love 10 and 11 - really great golf holes.  I think Brookside is a better Ross course than Oakland Hills - despite the rankings.

Detroit Golf Club, Detroit CC, Franklin Hills and Shepards Hollow are good, but not 2nd options that you would normally find in a city with its history and population.

[Keith OHalloran]

I have always been impressed by the quality of golf in Rochester NY. For a small city, they have a lot of Ross up there, and even some Fazio (just ask JNC!).

[Morgan Clawson]

Pat -

Thanks for your POV.

I'm thrilled that Mpls compares well to Chicago given that our metro population is only 1/3 the size of Chicago's.

We are blessed with 4 really great Ross courses on terrifc rolling terrain (Woodhill, Minikahda, Interlachen, White Bear), a very challenging and underappreciated Tilly (Golden Valley), and a big & brawny RTJ (Hazeltine).

Our 6.5 month season likely contributes to our lower profile on a national level.

One thing I wish we had was a newer minimalist course carved out of the rolling cornfields. Windsong could have been that course. But the founding members wanted a long, challenging course that could hold tournaments. Probably a poor decison in retrospect.

[Mark Johnson]

30 miles radius is the key to this question-- Minneapolis' strengths is that its courses are concentrated.

For example, if chicago could add Black Sheep and Rich Harvest Links to its lineup (both about 45 miles from city center), its chances would be much better in this showdown.

[Sean_A]

I have played a lot of golf in Detroit and I have found it actually to be one of the most disappointing cities for golf (based on its history and population). 

Oakland Hills has some of the best greens that I have ever played, but other than the original Ross holes is pretty boring tee to green.  It actually reminded me of a cross between Scioto and Firestone South.  That being said, I love 10 and 11 - really great golf holes.  I think Brookside is a better Ross course than Oakland Hills - despite the rankings.

Detroit Golf Club is within hours of closing down.  Half of the mansions on the course are empty.  Very sad.
Detroit CC, Franklin Hills and Shepards Hollow are good, but not 2nd options that you would normally find in a city with its history and population.  Being from Northeast Ohio, I like Kirtland, Canterbury and Country Club all better.

However, just my opinion and certainly not as learned or critical as TD.


However, I would not rank any of the above

Michael

Sadly, I think you are pretty damn accurate with your assessment of Detroit golf considering there was 75 years of serious auto power behind the city.  That said, Philly is always pushed out front as one of the best cities for golf, but if the bloated ranking of Rolling Hills is any indication of the second tier clubs (Pine Valley & Merion being the obvious 1st tier) then it fails to impress me (mind you, once one gets used to London most other places pale in comparison for depth of very fine golf).  I have seen more than one 2nd tier course in Detroit which is better than Rolling Green.  Speaking of Pine Valley, if that is a Philly club then surely Indianwood must be a Detroit club. 

As for Minn/St Paul, I have never thought much about the place and never cared for the cities when visiting, but there have been photo tours of some really good looking courses posted. 

Ciao   

[Ben Kodadek]

Sean,

What was lacking on your visits to MSP/St. Paul?

[PCCraig]

Carl:

I really haven't played nearly enough of the courses around Detroit to rank it.  It would certainly be in the same league as Minneapolis -- I would take Oakland Hills or Franklin Hills over any of them except White Bear Yacht Club, and I'm one of the few who would put WBYC in that class, because I love how severe it is.  But, I've never seen Grosse Ile or Red Run or the second tier of Detroit courses, so I couldn't really compare it.

Tom,

I'm just curious which of the courses above you've been to, in particular since The Confidential Guide was published?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I see a new ranking coming out in at least one of the magazines, "Best golf cities",  Actually, I think its been done, at least informally.

That said, MSP is very good for golf.  I played every one of the courses save Oak Ridge in both cities.  I need to make a point of at least touring Oak Ridge next time I am in MSP which happens to be Sunday!

[Dan Boerger]

Sean - I'm surprised anyone thinks Rolling Green is overrated -- most of the time when that course is brought up in any discussion I have with other golfers the consensus is that it's under appreciated in the Philly area!

Different strokes as they say.

About the Twin Cities area ... I lived there for 5 years in the 80's. I REALLY enjoyed living there. When people ask me why, I can't point to any one major factor. But the whole of the place is wonderful. I worked for a large company there and the prevailing wisdom was the only thing more difficult than getting someone to relocate there was getting them to leave!

[Rick Shefchik]

Jason, are you going to leave Jeff hanging?

[Jason Topp]

Pm sent

[Sean_A]

Sean,

What was lacking on your visits to MSP/St. Paul?

As is often the problem with American cities, a sense of cohesion and beauty. 

Dan

Rolling Green is a good course, but I can't see why it is picked out for any special ranking status or why Doak gave it a 7 (that is potential top 100 world class).  I would like to hear why people think it deserves this sort of status. 

Ciao 

[Mark Saltzman]

Although not in the US, I would argue that Toronto may be the most underrated golf metropolis in North America.  Though the top tier courses cannot compete with the best in Long Island or Philly, the depth of courses is exceptional and there are three courses (I think) that have been top 100 World at some point (Hamilton, National GC, St George's). 

Depth of public courses is also very strong, though it certainly isn't going to win any awards for 'best value' as most of the better public courses are $175 and anything decent will run you $85 for sure.

[Jason Topp]

Sean,

What was lacking on your visits to MSP/St. Paul?

As is often the problem with American cities, a sense of cohesion and beauty.  

Dan

Rolling Green is a good course, but I can't see why it is picked out for any special ranking status or why Doak gave it a 7 (that is potential top 100 world class).  I would like to hear why people think it deserves this sort of status.  

Ciao  

Sean:

Rolling Green (now Medina) [Edit] is a Doak 3 at best.  I don't think anyone included that course on the list of best MSP courses.

[Dan Kelly]

Sean,

What was lacking on your visits to MSP/St. Paul?

As is often the problem with American cities, a sense of cohesion and beauty. 

Sean --

Trust me here: As a Minneapolitan/St. Paulite (live on one side of the river, work on the other side), I'm not being parochial or defensive.

But I'd love to know what "a sense of cohesion and beauty" means.

What do urban "cohesion and beauty" entail? Where do you see them? Which are the many American cities that lack them? Which American cities have them? Which non-American cities have them and lack them?

Perhaps we might find analogies between urban "cohesion and beauty" and golf-course "cohesion and beauty"?

[PCCraig]

Sean,

What was lacking on your visits to MSP/St. Paul?

As is often the problem with American cities, a sense of cohesion and beauty.  

Dan

Rolling Green is a good course, but I can't see why it is picked out for any special ranking status or why Doak gave it a 7 (that is potential top 100 world class).  I would like to hear why people think it deserves this sort of status.  

Ciao  

Sean:

Rolling Green (now Medina) [Edit] is a Doak 3 at best.  I don't think anyone included that course on the list of best MSP courses.

Jason,

I think Sean is talking about Rolling Green in Philly, no?

[PCCraig]

Sean,

What was lacking on your visits to MSP/St. Paul?

As is often the problem with American cities, a sense of cohesion and beauty. 

Sean --

Trust me here: As a Minneapolitan/St. Paulite (live on one side of the river, work on the other side), I'm not being parochial or defensive.

But I'd love to know what "a sense of cohesion and beauty" means.

What do urban "cohesion and beauty" entail? Where do you see them? Which are the many American cities that lack them? Which American cities have them? Which non-American cities have them and lack them?

Perhaps we might find analogies between urban "cohesion and beauty" and golf-course "cohesion and beauty"?

Dan,

I was thinking the same thing. Curious as to what you think Sean.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I will third that!  Between the closeness and the similarities of landscape - all gently rolling and moderatly treed (compared to a Medinah or Olymic) I always thought the classic courses of MSP had a very defined regional look.

[Sean_A]

Of the big/to biggish American cities I have seen only a few really have a sense of cohesion and beauty and that is if we focus only on the traditional centre of the city.  Most are a sprawling mess and over-reliant on cars - which is the main reason for lack of cohesion.  There are reasons most people point to Euro cities as magnificent. 

Ciao

[Tim Leahy]

A friend of mine just got a job in the clubhouse at Tartan Park in Minneapolis. Has anyone played any of the courses there? If I were to visit him, what time of the year is best for golf? I hear mosqitos are a problem.

[Dan Kelly]

A friend of mine just got a job in the clubhouse at Tartan Park in Minneapolis. Has anyone played any of the courses there? If I were to visit him, what time of the year is best for golf? I hear mosqitos are a problem.

I've played two of the three nines at Tartan Park -- but so many years ago now (15?) that my memories are likely as outdated as they are foggy.

The best time of year for golf in Minnesota is just about to begin. September (always) and October (almost always) bring weather so idyllic that it makes up for the punishments of the other 10 months.

Mosquitoes, I've found, are never a problem on the golf course till dusk -- at which point, golf itself becomes a bit of a problem.

The gnats, on the other hand....

[PCCraig]

A friend of mine just got a job in the clubhouse at Tartan Park in Minneapolis. Has anyone played any of the courses there? If I were to visit him, what time of the year is best for golf? I hear mosqitos are a problem.

Tim,

I believe Tartan Park is the private club owned by 3M for use by employees, which is neat. Of course this thread is evidence enough that there are plenty of really good golf up here. Honestly, this has to be the best time of the year to visit...75*-80* and sunny with no humidity....pretty awesome.  

[Jason Topp]

A friend of mine just got a job in the clubhouse at Tartan Park in Minneapolis. Has anyone played any of the courses there? If I were to visit him, what time of the year is best for golf? I hear mosqitos are a problem.

I've played two of the three nines at Tartan Park -- but so many years ago now (15?) that my memories are likely as outdated as they are foggy.

The best time of year for golf in Minnesota is just about to begin. September (always) and October (almost always) bring weather so idyllic that it makes up for the punishments of the other 10 months.

Mosquitoes, I've found, are never a problem on the golf course till dusk -- at which point, golf itself becomes a bit of a problem.

The gnats, on the other hand....

I played the course 20 years ago and remember enjoying the day, but not much about the course.  It was late September and there was, at least at that time, a bunch of Sumac on the hillsides that was a brilliant red.  

[PCCraig]

Mosquitoes, I've found, are never a problem on the golf course till dusk -- at which point, golf itself becomes a bit of a problem.

The gnats, on the other hand....

Dan,

You must be used to them, because quite frankly the mosquitoes up here are brutal! Small birds really...

(*Seriously, they are apparently worse this year because they didn't spray for them for three weeks this summer during the government shutdown.)

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