Chambers Bay vs. the courses at Bandon Dunes - discuss

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

I'd disagree with you on the 1st point and so would several others who I've spoken to in person and off-line.  While I've only played Pacific Dunes at the resort, its widely regarded as the best one there, and Chambers Bay IMO can totally stand up to it.

If given the choice to play one round at any of the five (and I've played all five), Chambers Bay would be my last choice.  In my opinion, it does not stand up, and to use your language, it most certainly would not be the #1 course at the resort.

While I understand they are at very different sites, what is it about Chambers that couldn't stand up to 3 and 4 club winds?  #12 is the only hole I can think of that would be a little dicey with its narrowness.  All the rest of the holes have plenty of room to accommodate very windy conditions. 

For this exercise, let's assume you get the same summer and winter winds at Chambers that you do at Bandon.  If you examine the layouts of the holes at the Bandon courses, they generally align with the wind angles (Bandon Dunes being the exception, having more holes playing east/west as opposed to north/south).  Chambers is much more like BD, with holes generally spread out to the different points of the compass.  Lets look at how the two wind directions described would effect the E/W holes at CB:

1.  A strong cross-wind here would make holding the upper tier nearly impossible
4.  Plenty of width, so probably not as much of an issue here
5.  With the added rough on the right of the fairway, and the fact you're hitting from an elevated tee, the fairway becomes a very small target
7.  This becomes a beast when played into a north wind, might be a better hole with a helping wind off the tee allowing for more of the dogleg to be cut off
9.  This hole becomes a shit show with a 3 or 4 club wind from the south
10. Probably the hardest green on the course to hit with a cross-wind, and the narrowness of the green opening makes this a tough shot for a low runner
13.  Very similar to 4, although I wonder if there's enough room in the front of the green for running approaches
14.  I would imagine there'd be a ton of folks playing the entire hole from the waste area on the left with a summer wind
15.  Wind here makes this a more interesting hole, even with the small size of the green
18.  Another hole that becomes incredibly narrow with a cross-wind, just because of the bunkering

As for the N/S holes, you're right about 12 being a mess due to its narrowness, as would 8 and 16 (mostly due to the narrowness of the green).  One other factor to think about would be the set up based on wind conditions.  I'd venture that the Bandon courses have a bit more flexibility built in depending on which way the wind is blowing, as it was obviously a factor when the courses were designed.  I doubt very much that this was the case at CB (specifically contemplating 3 to 4 club winds in either direction). 

On the contrary I've read more than a few complaints/observations about a few holes at the resort that play near impossible in certain type of wind conditions due to narrowness

Please name the specific holes.  Also, what do you mean by near impossible?  As in you can't finish the hole? or you can't make par?

[Sean Leary]

CB is in the same league as Bandon Dunes at the very least.....

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

Interesting hole by hole analysis, I will offer rebuttal:

1.  A strong cross-wind here would make holding the upper tier nearly impossible

Are you talking about holding the green?  Because if you are, a wind from the south would only help it stay on, and a wind from the north would be neglible because the green is protected by a large dune.  

5.  With the added rough on the right of the fairway, and the fact you're hitting from an elevated tee, the fairway becomes a very small target

Its true a side wind would be tough here, but #5 is arguably the widest fairway on the entire course.  There is plenty of room to accommodate even a strong cross wind.

7.  This becomes a beast when played into a north wind, might be a better hole with a helping wind off the tee allowing for more of the dogleg to be cut off

This is a non issue because I can name several holes at PD alone that are also beastly as they play directly into the north wind.  1-3, 8, 12 and 13.  To boot sure with a north wind this hole gets tougher but whats wrong with a tough par 4.5 hole?

9.  This hole becomes a shit show with a 3 or 4 club wind from the south

This would be the one hole where I would concede, things could get crazy.  But it is a drop shot hole with plenty of room to miss around the green.  So there isn't anything instrinsically harder about it than playing #10 at Pac Dunes where from the elevated tee you also face stiff cross winds

10. Probably the hardest green on the course to hit with a cross-wind, and the narrowness of the green opening makes this a tough shot for a low runner

Yes the tee shot is exposed but the dunes block the wind on both sides coming from either the north or the south on the approach shot.  A low running shot into the green would be virtually unaffected

13.  Very similar to 4, although I wonder if there's enough room in the front of the green for running approaches

Like #5, this hole has tons of width off the tee and on the layup.  And with a summer wind, that wind would certainly be helping somewhat on the drive and more on the approach.  Either way there is plenty of room to work with

14.  I would imagine there'd be a ton of folks playing the entire hole from the waste area on the left with a summer wind

I can agree they would have to be careful with tee placement in the summer time with this one.  But thats a setup issue, not a course issue.

18.  Another hole that becomes incredibly narrow with a cross-wind, just because of the bunkering

This hole has a lot more space than you think.  In my one playing I pulled my drive left of that 1st fairway bunker on the left and still made birdie.  The layup is a little tight, but once again, its a shortish par 5 so I don't seem the harm in a demanding layup, especially on the closing hole to finish the round


So once again, I really don't see any new issues being introduced at Chambers that don't already exist at Pacific Dunes alone, much less other tight areas that I've read about, especially on Bandon Trails.  Yes 12 would be a beast...but thats it.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kalen:

1.  I'm going to pull out the "if you haven't played it don't comment on it" card here.  If you want to discuss narrowness at PD, go ahead and try.  But until you've seen the other three courses, I'm not willing to listen to your assertions.  [Any such claims about OM are laughable, BT is wider than people give it credit for and BD has a few spots that pinch, but is generally wide open.]

2.  Are you telling me RTJ designed CB for the average wind conditions it has in Tacoma or for the average wind conditions in Bandon?  I think you'd find there are a lot of nuances in the designs at Bandon that you don't find at CB, and they're there because of the wind conditions.  The routing of PD is just one example.

3.  I agree that a lot of the issues that wind would present at CB could be overcome by changing the set-up, but this like putting snow tires on a racecar.  You change the nature of the course, and the resulting layout as adapted for wind conditions would be a shell of what it is now.  Conversely, the courses at Bandon were designed to be equally as good whether or not adjusted for wind considerations.

4.  I have nothing against 4.5 par holes.  I do object to a course full of them.

[Garland Bayley]

...
4.  I have nothing against 4.5 par holes.  I do object to a course full of them.

Right there you lost the little credibility that you may have had. If you want to regain any, see if you can go make measurements on Google Earth that shows that Chambers Bay is any narrower than the three courses at Bandon that show on Google Earth.

I await your results.

[Sven Nilsen]

...
4.  I have nothing against 4.5 par holes.  I do object to a course full of them.

Right there you lost the little credibility that you may have had. If you want to regain any, see if you can go make measurements on Google Earth that shows that Chambers Bay is any narrower than the three courses at Bandon that show on Google Earth.

I await your results.

Garland:

There's more to designing for wind than fairway width.  Green depth, the ability to play a running shot and routing are also key. 

If CB was picked up and moved to the Oregon coast, it would be a beast.  Its length, routing and individual hole related features are suited for Tacoma, not a site that can consistently have winds in excess of 20 or 30 mph. 

Simply comparing the fairway widths at CB v. the Bandon courses would prove nothing.  There are many more factors to consider.

Perhaps the process of imagining playing CB with Bandon conditions is beyond your capacity.  As the mid- to hi-handicappers you and Kalen sell yourselves as, I'd think you'd be a little more capable of imagining how an uptick in the weather gauges could effect your game.  On a course like Chambers Bay, it would be pretty humbling.

As for your comment on my credibility, let's just say your qualifications as a critic may be suspect.

[Garland Bayley]

...
4.  I have nothing against 4.5 par holes.  I do object to a course full of them.

Right there you lost the little credibility that you may have had. If you want to regain any, see if you can go make measurements on Google Earth that shows that Chambers Bay is any narrower than the three courses at Bandon that show on Google Earth.

I await your results.

Garland:

There's more to designing for wind than fairway width.  Green depth, the ability to play a running shot and routing are also key. 

If CB was picked up and moved to the Oregon coast, it would be a beast.  Its length, routing and individual hole related features are suited for Tacoma, not a site that can consistently have winds in excess of 20 or 30 mph. 

Simply comparing the fairway widths at CB v. the Bandon courses would prove nothing.  There are many more factors to consider.

Perhaps the process of imagining playing CB with Bandon conditions is beyond your capacity.  As the mid- to hi-handicappers you and Kalen sell yourselves as, I'd think you'd be a little more capable of imagining how an uptick in the weather gauges could effect your game.  On a course like Chambers Bay, it would be pretty humbling.

I often play in 30+ mph winds at my home course. Is that a big enough uptick for you?

As for your comment on my credibility, let's just say your qualifications as a critic may be suspect.

Name the 4.5 par holes of Chambers Bay that you claim it is full of.

[Sven Nilsen]

I guess it would be pretty easy to get 10000 plus posts if I put as little thought into my comments as you did in your last post.

The point regarding the 4.5 par holes was based on playing Chambers Bay under Bandon conditions.  To help your comprehension, I'll list them using the CB Sand Tees and assuming a strong to quite strong wind out of the north:

1 - 461 yds - playing with a cross-breeze from the right
5 - 441 yds - again with a cross-breeze from the right
7 - 449 yds - driving into the wind, uphill approach with a cross-breeze
11- 426 yds - straight into the wind
14 - 450 yds - drive over the waste area plays into the wind

Back up one tee box and you can add in the 2nd and tack on another 25 to 40 yds for each of the yardages noted above (note I'm not even discussing the tips).  

In comparison, Pac Dunes, from the tips, has only 2 holes that could questionably be called 4.5 under prevailing conditions:

8 - 400 yds - into the wind
13 - 444 yds - into the wind

Bandon Dunes from the tips -

5 - 444 yds - into the wind

Bandon Trails from the tips -

4 - 408 yds - into the wind
15 - 406 yds - into the wind

Old MacDonald from the tips -

11 - 445 yds - into the wind
16 - 465 yds - cross-breeze

[Garland Bayley]

Sven,

You've listed 5 out of 18 holes as par 4.5 holes. Your definition of all is not the same as the general population.

To get your 5 holes you put in the downhill 5th which would be playing at right angles to a north wind. I doubt most would consider that a par 4.5 holes because of the wind. Someone might consider it a par 4.5 because of the pot bunker in the front center of the green, but I doubt it should be considered par 4.5 because of the length.

But your real misconception is taking a scorecard and trying to make some claim due to the "sand" tees at Chambers Bay, and the "tips" at Bandon. I doubt they even publish scorecards for the true tips of Bandon. But more importantly you are apparently unaware that Chambers Bay has ribbon tees. There are some numbers on a score card that someone put down for Chambers Bay located in University Place, WA. However, since for example there is a pretty much continuous teeing area on #11 from about 350 yards to 460 yards, it can be set up perfectly for playing in a Bandon wind so that you don't have the accursed par 4.5. Had you paid close attention you might have noticed that when you have tees on a hill like at #14, there are strips terraced into the hill so once again you pretty much have a continuous teeing distance to choose from.

So it seems given the flexibility in setup of tees at Chambers Bay, it can perhaps be set up for the wind better than the courses that are in Bandon.

Still waiting for your width measurements.

[Sven Nilsen]

Garland:

When did I say "all"?  And I wasn't including the par 3's and par 5's in my discussion, so knock that down to 5 out of the 10 par 4's.

I'll use your words and Kalen's words to describe the 4.5s I noted, perhaps that will sink in (I've also added your scores from the grudge match, played on a day with no wind):

Hole 1

Garland -  I don't anticipate being able to reach the green in two - 6
Kalen - No one in our group was on this green in regulation.  It is indeed a very stern opener - 5

Hole 2

Judging by both of your scores, this is more like a 6.5

Hole 5

Garland - I was able to play a second shot up the left side also to close to the green - 5
Kalen - My second shot was a bit lackluster and i'm about 30 yards short of the green out to the right.  I chip on the green and make a ho hum bogey - 5

Side note - your point regarding the bunker only solidifies the need to hit the correct side of the fairway based on the pin placement.  Thus a cross-breeze would create all kinds of problems, more so than a helping or hurting wind.

Hole 7

Garland - My half wedge third easily found the green - 7
Kalen - 1 hit my 4th safely to the rear of the green - 6

Hole 11

The quotes aren't great, but the score average here was 5.5

Hole 14

Garland - I still had 192...to the center of the green - 4
Kalen - an intimidating carry to the fairway - 5

Remember, this was on a day with no wind.  I'd love to see the scores of the grudge match if played in a 25 mph breeze. 

As for the remaining par 4's, the two of you average 4.5 on 6, 4.5 on 10 (with Kalen quoted as saying "Given the difficulty of the hole, even a 5 here is good by my standards"), 5 on 12 and 5 on 16.  The total of your averages is 51.5 over 10 holes.  Giving you guys a stroke per hole, your per hole average is a scant 4.15.  However, your per hole average on the 6 4.5's I noted is over 4.5 with the stroke.  Again, remember that this is on a day with no wind.  Given Bandon conditions, I don't see how you or your cohort could argue those holes are not 4.5's.

If you want to discuss how the par 3's are not actually 3.5's and the par 5's are not actually 5.5's, I'd be happy to do more research.

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

I was away from the computer for the rest of the day yesterday, so I'll make a few comments now:

You talk about these being par 4.5 holes in a summer wind, and you're probably right.

7 - 449 yds - driving into the wind, uphill approach with a cross-breeze
11- 426 yds - straight into the wind
14 - 450 yds - drive over the waste area plays into the wind

But in a winter wind all of them would get a lot easier and 11 would be driver wedge.  The same is also true though at PD.

#4, driver short iron in summer, an absolute brute in the winter
#7,  ditto....downwind is managamable, in a winter wind is very tough.
#13 once again very very tough in a summer wind, much more manageable in a winter wind.

I think its a bit hypocritical to skewer CB for "issues" that also exist at PD.  The key here is to focus is on differences and specifically what is found at CB that is not found at PD.

IMO, one of the biggest differences is, CB has a lot more width than PD has.  Yes it might mean you're in one of those gigantic waste bunkers, but at least you can find it and play it.  At PD it could means your in the gorse bushes or on the beach and facing a lost ball/unplayable.

P.S.  If some of those holes at Chambers are too much to handle, there is nothing in the rules that says you can't move up to a more reasonable tee box.    Being a short to medium knocker myself, I played from the sand tees at ~6500 and only found one of the carries/shots to be difficult (#14).  All the rest were very manageable/doable for the 14+ capper that I am.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kalen:

I'm not skewering Chambers for what it is.  I think its a very, very good golf course and has some great holes.  I think the design fits its location very well (with a few exceptions most of which have been noted earlier in this thread by others).  I happen to prefer the four courses at Bandon, each individually, over CB, but that is certainly not a knock on the course (and I can appreciate that others might see this differently).

I am skewering the thought that Chambers would be anything but an absolute monster if you moved it to the Bandon coast.  The average resort golfer would have a hard time getting around in under 6 hours, and the mental exercise required to add up strokes on each hole might overtax the mathematical capabilities of some.

The point to me isn't what is found at CB and not at PD, but rather the reverse.  PD was designed with features to make it playable in both winds, CB was not.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I am skewering the thought that Chambers would be anything but an absolute monster if you moved it to the Bandon coast.  The average resort golfer would have a hard time getting around in under 6 hours, and the mental exercise required to add up strokes on each hole might overtax the mathematical capabilities of some.
...

There you go again with your excessive inane hyperbole. Full of par 4.5s, hard time getting around in under 6 hours, overtax the mathematical capabilities. Stop, I can't take it any more. 

[Sven Nilsen]

...
I am skewering the thought that Chambers would be anything but an absolute monster if you moved it to the Bandon coast.  The average resort golfer would have a hard time getting around in under 6 hours, and the mental exercise required to add up strokes on each hole might overtax the mathematical capabilities of some.
...

There you go again with your excessive inane hyperbole. Full of par 4.5s, hard time getting around in under 6 hours, overtax the mathematical capabilities. Stop, I can't take it any more. 

You've questioned my credibility, erroneously claimed my points to be "misconceptions" and identified my language as "excessive inane hyperbole."  Well done.  You, sir, are the master of deflective discourse. 

I'll agree to disagree with you regarding the difficulty of Chambers Bay in a four club wind.  Unless, that is, you'd like to point out the design features that are there in anticipation of such playing conditions (and please come up with something a little more creative than fairway width, because the existence of the 8th and 12th holes negates any such argument)..

"Anticipating and defusing opposing arguments has been a vital rhetorical strategy since at least the days of Aristotle.  Satire and ridicule, when done well, are high art.  But the idea is to provide and persuade, not to soothe.  And the best way to make an argument is to make it, straightforwardly, honestly, passionately, without regard to whether people will like you afterwards." 

-An excerpt from Maud Newton's piece in the 8/21/11 edition of the NYT Magazine, covering David Foster Wallace and the voice of the Internet.

[Sean Leary]

I wonder how many 4 club wind days CB has a year. Very few I would think.

[Garland Bayley]

Sven,

Do you deny that "full of par 4.5s" would not be better stated "more than appropriate par 4.5s"? Full of par 4.5s sound much more like all par 4.5s than more than appropriate par 4.5s.

Do you deny that a Chambers Bay was created to attract a major championship, and therefore has tees on the scorecard that are not analogous to the tees at Bandon? And, that there would be no reason to use those tees at a resort? And, it is not hyperbole to use "hard time getting around in under 6 hours" and "overtax the mathematical capabilities"?

It seems to me that labeling hyperbole for what it is does not constitute "deflective discourse". It seems to me that using hyperbole in your dismissive manner might very well be "deflective discourse".

While we are on the subject of "deflective discourse", what was that bit about how Kalen and I played the course, being high handicappers and all? Did you not read the part about striking the ball with putter 44 times, almost all of those entirely on the green? Our 3 and 4 putts were indicative of a course not being playable in the wind? Was that not deflective as a follow up to a post that pointed out Chambers Bay has ribbon tees allowing it to be set up for vastly different conditions, thereby being more flexible than the courses at Bandon. And, what about that bit about the process of imagining playing CB with Bandon conditions is beyond "your" (our) capacity? Is it not deflective to suggest we can't imagine playing in the wind?

Of course Kalen and I have emphasized the width at Chambers Bay. But, we have not stated that all holes are wide. What we have stated is that they are comparable to what you find at Bandon, especially to what you find at Pacific Dunes. The gorse at Pacific Dunes has been explicitly mentioned for its difficulty. Wind or no wind, I might add.

[Sven Nilsen]

Its pretty simple.  The holes at PD are designed to offer interest which ever way the wind is blowing.  It might be a different hole downwind or into it, but it has the features to accommodate both.  Many of the holes at CB do not offer this flexibility, and in many cases they would become unbearably difficult with the wrong wind, or the features that make them interesting would be lost from play.  This is the crux of my argument, I'm happy to drop the rest of the bs going on and focus on specific holes and features at both courses if you'd like (an exercise that would be entirely more productive than the sad trail this thread has taken).

[Joe Stansell]

Guys, I will be heading out to Washington some time late this year.  I hear wonderful things about Chambers Bay.  How does it resemble the work at the Bandon complex?  How is it different?  What's better about it?  What's not?  What's unique about it?  What might you think is cliched? (if anything?)

I'm going to wade out of the kiddie pool (where us Newbie's play) and tackle the questions that Jay asked.

Similarities: strategic; firm and fast conditioning; interesting green complexes; lot's of opportunity for creativity.

Differences: absence of resort; one course, not four; longer, more arduous walk; generally less wind.

Better: opportunity to play a course that will host a U.S. Open.

Unique: train tracks, in use, running alongside the course; the view of the course from above.

Bottom line: if you're in the State of Washington, you won't be disappointed if you make time to play Chambers Bay. It rates high enough to make a special trip but definitely high enough to play if you're in the area.

[Garland Bayley]

Its pretty simple.  The holes at PD are designed to offer interest which ever way the wind is blowing.  It might be a different hole downwind or into it, but it has the features to accommodate both.  Many of the holes at CB do not offer this flexibility, and in many cases they would become unbearably difficult with the wrong wind, or the features that make them interesting would be lost from play.  This is the crux of my argument, I'm happy to drop the rest of the bs going on and focus on specific holes and features at both courses if you'd like (an exercise that would be entirely more productive than the sad trail this thread has taken).

Lots of holes in golf are unbearably difficult. It's golf. For example, #14 at Trails is unbearably difficult with no wind.

You might say #6 at Pacific Dunes is unbearably difficult with the wrong wind, because the green is so narrow that into a strong headwind any approach shot that is not hit dead straight at the green will get a very unfortunate result. Or, so it would seem to me.

[Mike Hamilton]

Played CB for the first time Sunday and want to thank Rich Choi, Victor Santodomingo, and Brent Carlson for hosting my 11 year old son and myself to a magnificent afternoon of golf and fun!  CB is a great course that allows for lots of imagination around the greens and plays nothing like anything available back east.

How does it compare to Bandon?  With the remnants of the sand gravel quarry and the rail line I came away thinking of it as a bit of a blue collar Bandon.

CB is a beatiful site, right on the water with great views of the Olympics....but it does sit within a neighborhood (although well separated) and it is not as wild and remote as Bandon.  The feeling of being in a truly natural almost national park like setting is everpresent (at least to me) at Bandon and its hard not to love it.

In addition, I didn't feel the CB architecture quite stands up as well either...and agree with most of the points already made.  A couple of observations...first from Rich himself, 4 downhill par 3's, and second, at least 4 par 4's with "Cape" style drives (7, 13, 14, and 16) seem to make some of the shots a little repetitive.  And I also thought the 8, 9 stretch a little contrived.

All that being said, I am jealous of the folks who can make it out to CB on a regular basis and if I lived within a couple of hours of CB it would definitely take a cut out of my trips to Bandon.  It is a great place and my criticisms are nits. Finally, as mentioned earlier as well, the customer service at CB was fantastic and friendly from every employee we met and I would recommend CB to anyone considering a visit.

I think a more interesting comparison may be 12 to 18 months from now:  Chambers Bay vs Streamsong. 

[Steve Lang]

  So does Jay have enough food for thought from the above?  Should be a glide downhill like CB's 14-17

[Kalen Braley]

Seeing how we're haggling over nits, I guess I'll jump into the fray and offer a few of mine own.  

The comment was made:

at least 4 par 4's with "Cape" style drives (7, 13, 14, and 16) seem to make some of the shots a little repetitive

First off, this really isn't accurate because only 7 and 14 are actual cape drives.  13 only makes you interface the "cape" on the 2nd shot as does #4.  As for 16 I didn't see any real Cape attributes there, it was just a matter of a long bunker that goes down the entire right hand side with a bit of a curve on it.

But that's not really the point.  As a general rule, these types of shot requirements are generally praised on GCA.com because it provides options to the golfer instead of the normal "hit it here" type architecture.  The golfer must make a decision on how much they are going to "bite off and chew".  I find these to be terrific shots because they require the golfer to think and assess how well they think they are hitting the ball that day.  Do you play safe and hit the long iron, or challenge the "cape" and leave a shorter approach in?

For me, these shots are always good things and always add to the fun and pleasure of playing a course.  So to have several of these shot requirements I would think would be a benefit/pro for a course not a con.

Its like going to a bar and complaining because they only serve the best beer in 24 oz glasses instead of 16oz pint glasses!  

[Garland Bayley]

Seeing how we're haggling over nits, I guess I'll jump into the fray and offer a few of mine own.  

The comment was made:

at least 4 par 4's with "Cape" style drives (7, 13, 14, and 16) seem to make some of the shots a little repetitive

First off, this really isn't accurate because only 7 and 14 are actual cape drives.  13 only makes you interface the "cape" on the 2nd shot as does #4.  As for 16 I didn't see any real Cape attributes there, it was just a matter of a long bunker that goes down the entire right hand side with a bit of a curve on it.
...

You got that right Bro! One cape right, one cape left. Perfect!
Sorta like Bandon Trails 10 & 11.
And dare I say Pacific Dunes 8, 9 (lower green), and 16.
Old MacDonald 9 & 11.

There are probably too many cape drives at Bandon to make it worth my while to go back there.

[Sven Nilsen]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=42329.0

[Garland Bayley]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=42329.0

I believe Sven is pointing out there are two definitions of cape hole, the original, and the generally accepted modern alternative. I think it is clear from the context that it is the modern definition in play here.