A true golf course architect should be designing the Olympics Course - not pros

[Jay Flemma]

All this talk by Faldo about having 18 major champions designing the course near Rio and the Jack/Annika and Norman/Ochoa chatter got me to thinking.  Shouldn't a movement get started by - someone or some governing body - that true professionals in the golf course design business should be designing the course?   Not pros who moonlight?  Not pros who are just learning the craft recently?  During the PGA Championship, I asked Faldo publicly why it had to be major champions that had to get the nod, and other journalists/b'casters joined in that request once they saw I made it...and we got no reply.

Why not have Dye or Jones, Jr. or Doak or Hanse or C&C?  What's wrong with them?  Nothing, that's what.  But what can be done to get that point across to the powers in control of the decision?  Other than writing articles and saying during b'casts?

[Scott Warren]

"An true golf architect"

"I asked Faldo why it had to major champions that had to get the nod"

Move over HWW.

I'm sorry, Jay. I know I'm being unkind, but I cannot read that from an alleged professional and not say something.

[Randy Thompson]

It needs to be public and be acessible to the middle class brazilian afterwards and maybe at a more expenisve price for the international traveler. Who cares who designs it as long as it get done correctly and economically efficient, so that the game can continue to grow in Brazil.

[Tom_Doak]

It needs to be public and be acessible to the middle class brazilian afterwards and maybe at a more expenisve price for the international traveler. Who cares who designs it as long as it get done correctly and economically efficient, so that the game can continue to grow in Brazil.

Amen to that, Randy.

The worst thing about it is that they are setting a precedent to build a "special" Olympic venue every time out, instead of just using the best course they can locally.  I know that wasn't feasible in Rio, but I fear that future venues will be the same circus, with every architect and every governing body trying to cash in on the deal.

[Ben Sims]

I know I'm being unkind...

Then why say anything?  There is no value added.

...but I cannot read that from an alleged professional and not say something.

Sure you can.  It's called restraint.  Like I should have restrained from saying anything.  Not trying to be a thread police, honest.  But the reason the internet is so infuriating is that there are no repercussions for interrupting someone's conversation and being a boor.  

I'm not defending Flemma, but sheesh dude.  Positivity in one's life can be fun sometimes.  Try it. 

[JR Potts]

"An true golf architect"

"I asked Faldo why it had to major champions that had to get the nod"

Move over HWW.

I'm sorry, Jay. I know I'm being unkind, but I cannot read that from an alleged professional and not say something.

The true professional you quoted never lets facts and grammar stand in the way of "journalism."

Just par for the course.

Ben, Jay criticizes most everything related to modern golf.  Coupled with his self promotion, transparent agendas and total disregard for facts, I think Scott's post was quite warranted.  Further, given the point Jay attempted to make, it was also quite hilarious.

[Jay Flemma]

Scott, everyone makes typos from time to time.  But you attack me ceaselessly no matter what.  Few people on this site seek to suppress my participation than you and Ryan, yet you take a lot of pleasure in it. Your behavior on Ran's site is reprehensible.  I don't see you make much of a contribution around here other than than be negative with ad hominem attacks on me, who you've never met.  It's getting old and we see right through it.  Guys, ignore him.

For the rest of you that want to discuss architecture, I agree it should be public and affordable...but Jack/Annika?  Norman/Ochoa?  That smacks of commercialism.

[Scott Warren]

Ben,

I'd like to think there is room in life for both positivity and honesty. You've never criticised another pilot's performance in the air?

Of course I realised well before your reply that I was going to catch some criticism for my post, but I care about my trade and have genuine concerns about the way its poorest practitioners affect the way the industry as a whole is viewed.

Jay shows disregard for accuracy and in cases like those above his writing is simply careless. If a writer can't even make sure his work makes sense, I can't trust or respect the facts or opinions those words are attempting to convey.

[Scott Warren]

On topic, Jay, does this description:

"Not pros who are just learning the craft recently?"

Apply to Jack Nicklaus or Greg Norman, or the golf course architects they employ?

[John Kavanaugh]

You are not going to get a young man off the beach in Brazil with architecture. Alpha male Brazilian culture demands strength over subtlety.

[Steve Burrows]

You are not going to get a young man off the beach in Brazil with architecture. Alpha male Brazilian culture demands strength over subtlety.

Then by all means have a boldly designed golf course.  The works of renowned Brazilian landscape architect Roberto Burle Marx are anything but subtle, but they seem to be in complete harmony with the local culture.  Perhaps a golf course could be created that is functional, to be sure, but is also "of the place," and proudly displays, and becomes a part of, Brazilian culture and character.

[Bill Hyde]

Scott, if we attacked everyone who made a grammatical or punctuation error on this site, we'd never talk about golf. Get a life, you are anidiot.

[Scott Stearns]

guys.. come on.  there are two ways to go here

1--the "way of the Olympic movement"--i.e. the guy/gal/team who pays the biggest kickback wins

2--Every designer who wants to pay a $(insert amount here) entry fee sends in a drawing for one hole--18 are pulled out of a big rotating drum by YO-LAN-DA VEGA! and those 18 are built, in order, in Rio. 

[Sam Morrow]

Scott, everyone makes typos from time to time.  But you attack me ceaselessly no matter what.  Few people on this site seek to suppress my participation than you and Ryan, yet you take a lot of pleasure in it. Your behavior on Ran's site is reprehensible.  I don't see you make much of a contribution around here other than than be negative with ad hominem attacks on me, who you've never met.  It's getting old and we see right through it.  Guys, ignore him.

For the rest of you that want to discuss architecture, I agree it should be public and affordable...but Jack/Annika?  Norman/Ochoa?  That smacks of commercialism.

Jay I think commercialism might be what something like this needs. It would be cool for one the GCA Poster Boy Archies to do the course but that won't grow the game in Brazil. I think the names people know are what is going to drive the game to growth down there.

[Randy Thompson]

Sam,
Has the market shown thats is how golf has grows in other countries in the past. Paying miillion dollar fees and following up with multi million contruction cost and then high dollar maintenance? Have we not learned anything?? People like Joe Lee, Donald Ross or Jeffery Cornish did a lot more for growing the game than the architectural firms of Greg Norman, Arnold Palmer, Nick Faldo and Gary Player all combined together.
I think it would be ok for Jack to be involved if he waves his fee´s and doesn´t charge jet fuel fees or other bull shit and can construct somehting in the three million dollar range. But all this most likely will be wishfull thinking, Brazil is on center stage and with all lights on them and they will feel pressured to show the world something big and dramatic, not to mention the politics. And even though the dollar is weaking throughout the world, It is still ALLMIGHTY and that will cause more of what we have seen in the past, over and over. When you sum up these factors, common sence goes out the window and has little chance!

[Martin Toal]

I guess there is no room for a bad joke about how much the rough protecting the green needs to be shaved back on a Brazilian course?

[Ron Farris]

Dan Blankenship is an American golf course architect, living in Brazil.  I believe he is a member of Sand Hills GC, and I know for a fact that he worked in the Dye Designs organization for a brief period and that is what took him to Brazil.  It might be interesting if he were to comment on this thread.............Dan show up buddy!

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,
Has the market shown thats is how golf has grows in other countries in the past. Paying miillion dollar fees and following up with multi million contruction cost and then high dollar maintenance? Have we not learned anything?? People like Joe Lee, Donald Ross or Jeffery Cornish did a lot more for growing the game than the architectural firms of Greg Norman, Arnold Palmer, Nick Faldo and Gary Player all combined together.
I think it would be ok for Jack to be involved if he waves his fee´s and doesn´t charge jet fuel fees or other bull shit and can construct somehting in the three million dollar range. But all this most likely will be wishfull thinking, Brazil is on center stage and with all lights on them and they will feel pressured to show the world something big and dramatic, not to mention the politics. And even though the dollar is weaking throughout the world, It is still ALLMIGHTY and that will cause more of what we have seen in the past, over and over. When you sum up these factors, common sence goes out the window and has little chance!

Randy,

I think even if someone were to waive their fee we would still have lots of money change hands because the IOC appears to be one of the most crooked groups in the world.

[Mike_Young]

The big money was paid to even get the Olympics to Brazil.  30 to 50 million for a golf course will be peanuts.  Latin America is infatuated with Arnold, Jack etc.  That's all the main decision makers will know about golf.  But in the end the Olympics will go the way of the Worlds Fair .  With Tivo around and commercials being skipped the TV will eventually fade .  It's really not worth thinking about.

[Randy Thompson]

Mike,
Fatuated is one thing and paying extra to play or be a memeber of a club associated with such a name has a very limited market. The largest percentage of the market in the southern cone of Latin America want a decent layout, decent maintained golf course at a reasonable price and could give a rats ass who designed it.

[Jay Flemma]

Well I guess the next question is when and how does commercialism get on the way of good architectural principles?  How much do C&C or Doak weight them vs. how much do Jack/Annika or Faldo & co. or Norman/Ochoa?  To me, it seems like they'd be selling Jack and Annika and whatever got built would be secondary.  Cut the commercialism and popular culture out, and the true art would shine though much more.

So instead of Annika and Jack doing it, how about their design associates design the whole thing, get 100% design credit, and leave Jack an Annika to cheer from the sidelines?

[Greg Tallman]

Mike,
Fatuated is one thing and paying extra to play or be a memeber of a club associated with such a name has a very limited market. The largest percentage of the market in the southern cone of Latin America want a decent layout, decent maintained golf course at a reasonable price and could give a rats ass who designed it.

Unless it was a Tiger Woods/Jack Nicklaus design. 

[Randy Thompson]

Jay,
Do good or great architectural design principals bring out the best players and help them raise to the top? I tend to think, most of the time but getting a committee to agree to that and put that to the front of list and making this the driving force priority when selecting the Architect....not likely, unless the committee is made up of various individuals from this forum!

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
Fatuated is one thing and paying extra to play or be a memeber of a club associated with such a name has a very limited market. The largest percentage of the market in the southern cone of Latin America want a decent layout, decent maintained golf course at a reasonable price and could give a rats ass who designed it.

Randy,
You have probably seen more of the upper class down there than I have.  But you have to admit the decision makers will be the upper crust and they are mostly brats that were schooled in the US and live off of family money invested in businesses that they pretend to run.  Therefore I don't think it matters what the largest percentage of the market wants even if I agree with you.

[Mike Nuzzo]

The Olympics only wanted golf if the big names were coming to play.
The Olympics is a commercial sell out.
The course design is being decided by the Olympics not Brazil.
Why should the course be any different?

Their definition of better every year isn't a celebration of the world's athletes but how big the TV contract.