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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« on: August 19, 2011, 02:53:34 PM »
Honest questions, so try to answer them honestly:

Do you think it was one of the luckiest breaks and luckiest shots of all-time? Should he have been "penalized" for such a wayward tee shot?

Or do you view it as a well-played recovery shot?

Do you think Seve's fellow competitors felt he got an undeserved break and that he was an undeserving champion?

Would any of your views change if it were a hack hitting out of the parking lot and you were playing him in a match, standing in the middle of the fairway?

To me, the answers to these questions get to the heart of how you view golf course architecture.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sam Morrow

Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2011, 02:56:59 PM »
If the R&A hadn't marked the car park as OB then I don't see an issue. Everyone in the field had the same rules.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2011, 03:11:00 PM »
I view it as an archetype of Seve's game - willing to win no matter where the last shot went and with the skill to pull it off.

I also view it as an example of how much the US media belittled Seve's skills.  Watching him interviewed back in the 80's is almost painful because the interviewers often seem condescending towards him.

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2011, 03:22:18 PM »
Do you think it was one of the luckiest breaks and luckiest shots of all-time? It was a lucky break but golf is full of lucky and unlucky breaks--that's what makes it a great game. His recovery shot was one of amazing skill.

Should he have been "penalized" for such a wayward tee shot?  NO. It wasn't OB. Should Roger Maltbie have been penalized because his tee shot in The Memorial years ago hit an OB stake and bounced back into play?Or do you view it as a well-played recovery shot? Yes.

Do you think Seve's fellow competitors felt he got an undeserved break (Don't know) and that he was an undeserving champion? (I doubt it)

Would any of your views change if it were a hack hitting out of the parking lot and you were playing him in a match, standing in the middle of the fairway? No, and it's happened to me many times where an opponent makes a great recovery from a bad spot or gets a break that allows him to stay in a hole depsite a bad shot. If he recovered like Seve I'd applaud him.

To me, the answers to these questions get to the heart of how you view golf course architecture. Interested to know your thoughts on this.

PS George, one of my favorite sayings (and happenings) on a golf course is "Par from the parking lot."
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 03:26:11 PM by Doug Wright »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2011, 03:22:40 PM »
Admittedly,I was,and still am,Seve's biggest fan.

Seve didn't set up the golf course,design the parking lot,nor write the local rules.If the R&A couldn't foresee the problem,it's not Seve's (nor any other player's) fault.He hit a shot in a place where the only ruling could be free relief--this is just a manifestation of setting up a golf course for a championship with 50,000(?) people in attendance.

Was it a lucky break?--of course.Not all rulings "penalize" a player.But,I don't think any other player would have gotten a different ruling.

Was it a well played recovery shot?--oh yeah,highlight reel type stuff.

Do other players think Seve got special treatment?--probably some did and still do.I believe some posters (Mike Clayton,eg) would know the answer and I'd be curious to hear their opinions.

Years ago,I was playing with some guys--one of whom was a very good player who had caddied a couple years on the PGA Tour (knows the rules well).His tee shot landed in someone's back yard--there was no fence.His contention was that,since there was neither a fence nor a stake of any color,he was entitled to play from the back yard with no penalty.

He was right.For whatever reason,somebody had decided that this back yard wasn't OB.My friend just happened to hit it in a place which allowed him to play a recovery shot.

Same with Seve.



Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2011, 03:29:02 PM »
For those not familiar with it...like me jsut a few minutes ago, here is the story..

When Ballesteros won his first major at the 1979 British Open at Royal Lytham and St. Annes, he deliberately hit a ball into a parking lot on the 16th hole on the final round to take advantage of the prevailing winds that day, then hit a sand wedge to within 20 feet of the hole.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2011, 03:33:08 PM »
Video clip of Seve at Royal Lytham in 1979: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gga4mjaXwbE

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2011, 03:34:27 PM »
My take is that the 'car park' bit makes good copy, but that the shot was not that wayward. And because it was in play, it wasn't that bad or lucky. If it were OB, maybe he would have played away from it, but since it wasn't he just let loose.

And, next time round, in the final round with that area marked OB, Seve center cut his drive and put his approach inside the leather for another birdie to win again. So, I say he was a great champion hitting great shots, making birdies, and winning claret jugs.


Do you think it was one of the luckiest breaks and luckiest shots of all-time? Should he have been "penalized" for such a wayward tee shot?
No, not that lucky.

Or do you view it as a well-played recovery shot?
Definitely, but not that high in Seve's CV of great recovery shots as I don't think the degree of difficulty was that high. Switzerland it wasn't

Do you think Seve's fellow competitors felt he got an undeserved break and that he was an undeserving champion?
I hope not, and I doubt it.

Would any of your views change if it were a hack hitting out of the parking lot and you were playing him in a match, standing in the middle of the fairway?
No.

To me, the answers to these questions get to the heart of how you view golf course architecture.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2011, 03:42:18 PM »
I think parking lots give to much advantage to the skilled player over the hack.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2011, 03:43:25 PM »
Hale Irwin did not like it much at the time, but he would be the proto-typical example of a player who thinks straight hitting should be rewarded and wayward hitting punished.

As they say on Wall Street, "everyone talks their book."

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2011, 03:46:24 PM »
Was that tee shot really that crooked? It was no more crooked than many Tiger has hit over the years.
The wind was off the left - but the second was hardly a recovery shot.It was just a wedge off a clean lie with nothing in his road.
An undeserving champion?
A 22 year old kid from a non-golfing country beats the best players in the world playing with more passion than anybody ever and setting alight the game outside of America.
That 1979 Open was a defining moment in the game.
In 2007 Tiger won an Open hitting one driver - and that one off the 16th tee finished on the 17th fairway. He played brilliantly that week - but surely hitting a driver is a part of the game and Seve never shied away from it.
Which Open was more memorable or more significant?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 04:01:20 PM »
Speaking of Hale Irwin and lucky shots, what about the drive he hit on to the rocks on #18 at Pebble Beach that bounced back into the fairway in his playoff against Jim Nelford one year in the Crosby/AT&T? The lucky break he got there certainly made up for the one Maltbie got at the Memorial.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2011, 04:02:01 PM »
great shot, great win...

howling wind!
It's all about the golf!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2011, 04:04:22 PM »
Wait a second here..

Everyone seems to be saying he hit a wild shot and got away with it..while everything I've read online about the tourney suggest he intentionally tried to hit it into the parking lot.  If he hit it where he was intending, it wasn't a wild shot...

So which one is it?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2011, 04:08:10 PM »
Thanks for that, Mike.

Let me start by saying, or rather asking, was the tee shot intentional? If so, then my main premise is wrong, at least in regard to Seve's shot specifically. I was under the impression it was a wayward tee shot, not an intentional play. So I'd have to find a different example, if it was intentional. (Perhaps someone can suggest one?)

To me, the answers to these questions get to the heart of how you view golf course architecture. Interested to know your thoughts on this.

Being the loudmouth that I am, I assumed everyone knew the answer to this. :)

My own views on golf course architecture have evolved quite a bit over the years. I am less interested - far less, in fact - with defined options, and rather instead focused on what I call preferred strategies and shot accommodation. When I was first introduced to this site, I had just read Geoff Shack's The Captain, and being of a mathematical bent myself, I was fascinated by the notion of defined options for each level of player.

Then someone said something on here about the problem with defined options: they are obvious and tend to become trivial (that's my paraphrasing, not at all what he said literally). I thought a lot about this, and it, along with many other things, steered me toward my present view. I view the journey from tee to green and hole as one of individual choice. If you can do it from parking lots, awkward stances, whatever, all the more power to you. Hitting it down the middle, or down a preferred angle, is reward in and of itself, I see no need to overly penalize a golfer's wayward shots - and make no mistake, overly is the key word in that sentence. To me, the penalty strokes associated with water, or the stroke and distance of OB, or the automatic punch out of ultra lush rough or heavy trees, are overly penalizing.

I'd expect the observant poster to note my position and wonder how I can reconcile it with my love of Oakmont, by most people accounts, the poster boy for penal golf. Well, all I can say is, there's no water at Oakmont, and not a whole lot of OB in play, either. I never said anything about the recovery shots not being hard, I just don't like when they are not there at all.

I can think of two courses in particular that really seem to fit my ideas, and a third that I'm not sure if it even still exists, all built relatively recently. However, I haven't played any of them, yet, so I'll just leave it at that. I don't know that they were designed under anything resembling my premise, but they seem to have turned out that way.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 04:13:08 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2011, 04:27:33 PM »
I don't think it was intentional but I assume he knew he had a chance to play from over there.
Not too much that day was intentional.It was the ultimate hit it and find it day - and he had all the powers of recovery he needed.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2011, 04:33:52 PM »

I don't think it was intentional but I assume he knew he had a chance to play from over there.
Not too much that day was intentional.It was the ultimate hit it and find it day - and he had all the powers of recovery he needed.


Thanks for chiming in--your opinions on this are better than most.

Do you think any players begrudged him the ruling or thought he got special treatment?Seve hadn't become SEVE yet,had he?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2011, 04:37:03 PM »
Not too much that day was intentional.It was the ultimate hit it and find it day - and he had all the powers of recovery he needed.

LOVE hit it and find it!

HATE hit it, figure out your drop area, take the drop and add 1 and hit it.

DISLIKE hit it, find it, punch or wedge out and hit it.

And I don't even have all the powers of recover I need...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2011, 05:14:39 PM »
In 2007 Tiger won an Open hitting one driver - and that one off the 16th tee finished on the 17th fairway. He played brilliantly that week - but surely hitting a driver is a part of the game and Seve never shied away from it.
Hoylake was 2006 and I was standing on the LHS of the 16th fairway when he hit that one driver.  It actually missed the 17th fairway and settled in the semi-rough on the other side of that fairway.  It missed the 16th fairway by a good 80 yards+.  Few even remember that oods made birdie, too.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2011, 05:37:58 PM »
Thanks Mike, I doubted the 'intentional' even before I saw the hole. 

16 at Lytham is blind over a small dune.  I can't see anyone hitting one blind towards the unknown, so I think it just suited Seve to "print the legend".  It was a hook to hang his style of paly on.

I played Lytham about 8 weeks ago.  There are two hundred bunkers and they're not all up by  the greens.  Outside the bunkers there's was some long wispy Fescue but there was also lots of mixed up s****.   I played it knowing Seve had won two Opens there. Without haveing seen details of how he played, I find it hard to believe that over 8 rounds the 'wild' shots were not the exception for him to return the two lowest scores. ONce agian print the legend?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2011, 05:47:30 PM »

I viewed it sitting on the sofa in the family room ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2011, 05:52:31 PM »
Mike, 

You really should get rid of the sofa and get a nice recliner.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2011, 06:05:47 PM »
I think parking lots give to much advantage to the skilled player over the hack.


I agree... wait a minute!

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2011, 06:08:08 PM »
Honest questions, so try to answer them honestly:

Do you think it was one of the luckiest breaks and luckiest shots of all-time? Should he have been "penalized" for such a wayward tee shot?

Or do you view it as a well-played recovery shot?

Do you think Seve's fellow competitors felt he got an undeserved break and that he was an undeserving champion?

Would any of your views change if it were a hack hitting out of the parking lot and you were playing him in a match, standing in the middle of the fairway?

To me, the answers to these questions get to the heart of how you view golf course architecture.

His second required skill and getting the ball in the air... he could not have topped a hybrid and gotten greenside.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you view Seve's parking lot shot?
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2011, 06:18:19 PM »
Do you think it was one of the luckiest breaks and luckiest shots of all-time?
Yes it was a lucky break but that's "rub o' the green".
Luckiest shots ? No. By some reckonings Seve was hitting pebbles off hard pan sand with an old stick as a boy. Hitting off a firm slab of tarmacadam should be "nae bather at a" for Seve.

Should he have been "penalized" for such a wayward tee shot?
No although a bit adrift  it was still in play.

Or do you view it as a well-played recovery shot?
Absolutely brilliant. A piece of buccaneering golf that makes my heart sing.

Do you think Seve's fellow competitors felt he got an undeserved break and that he was an undeserving champion?
They know he got a break but thought of as undeserved I cannot know.
No, I think not. I do not remember reading of any negative responses from other players.

Would any of your views change if it were a hack hitting out of the parking lot and you were playing him in a match, standing in the middle of the fairway?
No way would my views change. You would have to swallow hard but we all have had ridiculous good luck on golf courses at times and this was my opponents moment of glory! Anyway as the other hack, surprised and bewildered by finding myself in the middle of the fairway I would be just as unsure as to what to do!

To me, the answers to these questions get to the heart of how you view golf course architecture.  OOOOhhh - have I just made a monkey out of myself!?

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander