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Terry Lavin

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #125 on: August 29, 2011, 09:55:09 AM »
As a Wisconsin resort Erin Hills might be pricey with a caddie but the Straits seems to do okay despite that issue. The course is a challenging walk but if you can't handle the challenge don't play!  The presence of a caddie isn't quite as important as at Bandon which has a lot more elevation changes, blind shots and plenty of fairway rollout issues.

Last point about the renovations. They were undertaken with an eye toward major championships not major minimalism geeks like us. Seems to me that they've done an excellent job thus far toward completing their mission statement.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #126 on: August 29, 2011, 10:06:16 AM »
Gary Koch said it was an 8 mile walk from 1 tee to 18 green.  I'm not so sure it is 'that' long.  But, easy walk was not accurate in version 1.  We walked it with push carts after a heavy rain, and it was a real slog.  My friend walked it with caddie a couple of weeks ago, and said it was long. 

I'm having a hard time imagining the average golfer 12-15 handi, even from up tees can play this course in less than 4.5hours. 

I played it walking and carrying my bag in less than 3.5 last fall.  Its not that bad.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

George Pazin

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #127 on: August 29, 2011, 10:13:45 AM »
Didn't see much, but I really liked what I saw. Bummer to see Cantlay lose in part due to one really bad putt, on a relatively simple putt, no less.

Off to read the other posts...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Howard Riefs

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #128 on: August 29, 2011, 10:24:21 AM »
The course is walkable but may be a challenge for some.  On Saturday, a marshall handling the "ropeline" for the Cantlay-Russell match said it's all of 8.5 miles from 1 to 18.  The match ended on 15 so that distance wasn't realized. Though I can confirm that wearing sneakers for the walk up-and-down the hills is not advisable, and I wish I was one of those who wear golf shoes to a golf tourney.

Didn't see much, but I really liked what I saw. Bummer to see Cantlay lose in part due to one really bad putt, on a relatively simple putt, no less.


Really a poor put from Cantlay on 16 (34th hole): three-putting from 15 feet.

Here's a solid Golf Week recap of the Kraft-Cantlay match and Kraft's run-up to a spot on the Walker Cup team.

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2011/aug/28/kraft-beats-ucla-star-cantlay-us-am-final/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

RJ_Daley

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #129 on: August 29, 2011, 10:36:46 AM »
George, the 19 year old seemed very composed for several of the matches where he came from behind.  It seemed to me that he went to the edge one too many times, and when it got late in the round and it became a test of poise and experience, he made that fatal error on 15 with the 8I off tee.  I think he knew it and it hit him hard.  You could see his whole demeanor change, and that one really sort of embarrassed him as things like a mistake tend to do, particularly with the very young and self assured, until that big goof up.  That seems to be when the panic set in, and he botched that 15th and his putting grip seems to have tightened and the tension caused him to hit that bomb of a blown putt past the hole on 16.

But, no doubt he'll be back the wiser and more seasoned.  What I can't believe in watching that kid is his arms.  He looks more like a kid from the audio visual club in H. S., than a fellow that can really haul the mail with a pretty long golf game.  I couldn't detect any definition to his arms. Where does he get such power?

But back to GCA and EH., I'll repost the link to the Ziegler interview where much of the thinking behind the EH story is revealed.  

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/91274844.html

Frankly, it seems we just can't have what I call, "big lot golf" that can be designed to hold big tournaments anymore, without the ultra wealthy developer figure behind it.  Lang just wasn't big enough of a financial player to handle it.  The influence and dream that was cultivated in Mr Lang's dream and ego by certain players, was something of a ethical question in my view.  Others may just chalk it up to caveat emptor.  

To build and design the big lot venues, takes too much mad money and takes the average rec golfer out of it for the most part.  And, even at the so called goal to 'just break even', these sort of big lot courses are simply not going to be built with all the required features and infra structure to be places for the average joe to play.  That is simply the reality.  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Phil McDade

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #130 on: August 29, 2011, 11:01:39 AM »
Lots of folks quick to judge. ::)

Erin Hills hasn't even been open a full season, really, when you take into consideration the multiple renovations that have been undertaken, and then again preparation for this past week's Amateur. RJ -- I seem to recall lots and lots of people quite skeptical of Herbie Kohler building championship courses in Sheboygan, of all places, and he seems to have made it work.

I continue to be impressed by what I'd call the low-key and subtle improvements to some of the amenties at Erin Hills. They've built three cottages and a mini-clubhouse up on the hill that overlooks #1, with wonderful views of the course, but they are sort of out-of-the-way and unobtrusive (far less jarring on the landscape than what I've seen in the Dismal River threads). The pratice area is huge, but again out of the way, and the place continues in my estimatation to reflect its surroundings -- the main dining area for the Amateur was a barn with mismatched old tables and chairs. To me, it seems focused primarily on the golfing experience, and while providing amenities that I'm sure are quite nice and comfortable, look fairly modest and not over the top. You get a real sense of being out in the middle of the countryside there -- maybe not the sense of isolation that I'm sure is one of the draws of places like Ballyneal, SHills, and Dismal River, but a place that you could get away for the weekend and enjoy some very good golf.

And I'd also add this to some of the comments about the "hype" and "marketing" of EHills. As one who actually lives here in Wisconsin, EHills gets a lot less hype among the lay public than Kohler's courses did, initially, and to this day the Kohler courses enjoy (I'd argue) a far stronger sense of marketing themselves to the public than EHills. The "hype" of EHills was within the very small and tight-knit world of golf geeks, not so much the general public (stop 100 random sporting fans in Wisconsin, and I'd bet far more have heard of WStraits than EHills). True, part of that is because the Straits has been around alot longer, and has had two majors, but I just don't get this argument about EHills being over-hyped to the general public. Maybe it was over-hyped as a great championship golf site, but that's another story, well-chronicled here and elsewhere.

It's opened at a bad time, no doubt -- the Wisconsin economy is still pretty shaky. But while everyone (on this board? :o) is going ga-ga over the second Dismal River course that's miles (and miles, and miles, and...) from nowhere, there's a pretty solid course 30 minutes from Milwaukee.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #131 on: August 29, 2011, 11:23:26 AM »
Phil,

Your comparison to the over-the-top, "ga ga" reaction to Dismal River is quite apropos in many ways, but let's not forget that DR has a mission that is the polar opposite of EH.  Dismal wants the geek squad to join and linger.  They want a certain type of member, the type that will hear the angels sing every time they see the sign pointing them to the club.  And that is great, it seems like they're really going to improve their facility with the second course.  And I'm sure they have no pretense for hosting any sort of championship other than the occasional state amateur event.  Bandon Dunes is a similar story, except they have the kind of golf courses that are perfect for national amateur championships.  Mike Keiser has said repeatedly that he wants the best amateurs competing at Bandon, not the pros.  He can "afford" to be more of an architectural purist and embrace quirk here and there on the property.  Erin Hills is the sort of place that has to make architectural concessions if it is going to succeed in its mission.  They will make some more in the next year or two as they get ready for the big event.  I think that we on this board have to remember the mission of a course before we too harshly judge what kind of work they're doing. 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

RJ_Daley

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #132 on: August 29, 2011, 11:31:49 AM »
Phil, while we all have our differing price points, and evaluation of value for our $$ we spend on our discretionary recreational budgets, I'd ask you as a relatively average situated guy, and decent rec golfer, and WI resident; how many times in the coming 6 years until the big USGA open, do you 'think' you'll play Erin Hills?  Then, factor that 200 green fee, and 50 caddie fee+ tip that will likely go up as that time goes by.

BTW, EH is an absolutely beautiful setting for golf.  On site appeal alone, it is one of the great ones.

I played WS the first tournament they ever had, free.  ::) ;) ;D  But, the next time was less than a year later in '99-2000(?) with Mike Cirba, and it was only 220 plus 60 caddiefee and tip.  Both of us evaluated it at that price over a few brewski's and admitted we both had a bit of 'buyers regret'.   Sure, it is a big time course, has tons of discussion rich architecture to chew on, but that is a lot of dough to most average folk.  

Yes, I indulge myself to about the most I can justify to pursue playing some of these courses.  I will probably return to EH once, always looking for a spring special, or what not.  But, thinking I"m not all that different from the average enthusiastic typical golfer with our basic regional expectations on price and so forth, once will be about it.  I'll never return to WS at the prices they charge, even at pre memorial day specials.  

If, and perhaps it is a big if, I am typical of those that might seek out this sort of venue once, due to excessive price, what might a marketting strategy for a place like EH or WS be, but hype and appeal to belt notchers, and intrepid fanatics or the corporate entertainment crowd, who desire all the amenities?  

IMHO, EH will not 'grow the game of golf', and apparently that isn't part of the owners big picture personal goals at any rate.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jud_T

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #133 on: August 29, 2011, 11:37:43 AM »
As Terry states, they're doing a great job of moving toward a top championship tournament venue.  Whether they can garner the 15-20,000 rounds (?) necessary to get to break-even status as a walking-only venue long-term in the distant Milwaukee burbs with 1 course, a few rooms and a 5 month season of decent weather is another matter...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 11:42:28 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

RJ_Daley

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #134 on: August 29, 2011, 11:48:57 AM »
We haven't even talked about the local politics and economy of what is instore or needed to take place in coming years, to build up to a USGA national open.  There may be some very intense debate and resistance from locals who fiercely hold onto the unique local charm and environment of the 'holy hill' area, that may not be overly enthusiastic to upgrade roads, and see attendant commercial development follow the 'big time' golf venue. 

Haven hasn't seemed to become a congested metropolis, so maybe they have a good plan to keep the local area charm of the town of Erin.  I hope so...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

George Pazin

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #135 on: August 29, 2011, 12:11:51 PM »
Ben,
   If someone magically recreated Ballyneal molecule for molecule in Vegas, it wouldn't provide you the same experience?  I (by and large) appreciate the products of the modern minimal design as much as anyone else here, but its not because of the PROCESS, its because of the PRODUCT.

Brad

Don't you think the process has something to do with the outcome of the product? I sure do.

Someone might be able to re-create Ballyneal molecule for molecule, but I don't think someone would create Ballyneal that way.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brad Swanson

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #136 on: August 29, 2011, 12:53:14 PM »
Ben,
   If someone magically recreated Ballyneal molecule for molecule in Vegas, it wouldn't provide you the same experience?  I (by and large) appreciate the products of the modern minimal design as much as anyone else here, but its not because of the PROCESS, its because of the PRODUCT.

Brad

Don't you think the process has something to do with the outcome of the product? I sure do.  

Someone might be able to re-create Ballyneal molecule for molecule, but I don't think someone would create Ballyneal that way.

You've turned my hypothetical 90 or maybe 180 degrees.  Sure I believe the process has something to do with the outcome, but the bottom line is the product.  Do your customers really care HOW you stencil their shirts, or do they just care about the final PRODUCT?

George, IIRC, you were a big fan of the Rawls Course, and it was created that way, wasn't it, or did Tom D use his magical GCA telekinetic power to create that course from a flat parcel of land.
 

Brad
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 01:00:09 PM by Brad Swanson »

George Pazin

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #137 on: August 29, 2011, 01:06:14 PM »
You've turned my hypothetical 90 or maybe 180 degrees.  Sure I believe the process has something to do with the outcome, but the bottom line is the product.  Do your customers really care HOW you stencil their shirts, or do they just care about the final PRODUCT?  

Brad

I believe the two are interrelated, in both architecture and t shirts. (And make no mistake, I am no Tom D or anyone else special when it comes to t shirts). How we print a t shirt has a great deal to do with the final product. Our industry is on the cusp of a major paradigm shift; they are really close to developing direct to garment digital printing that is really nice. But it's still not quite there yet. I can almost guarantee that I could tell you how a t shirt was printed, but only for a few more years. I'd guess many of the architects could tell you how a hole was created, at least most of the time.

I don't think I changed your hypothetical, I think I refined it... :) I agree that the bottom line is the product, but I still think the process is vital to the outcome. I just don't see anyone being creative enough to come up with Ballyneal by starting off with a flat site and creating it. And I say that as a huge fan of Rawls, which I wouldn't call minimalist, either.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil McDade

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #138 on: August 29, 2011, 02:19:03 PM »
RJ:

I'm probably the single worst person to ask about discretionary income for golf and EHills, because: a) I don't spend alot of money playing golf anyway; b) I care less about belt-notching than.....anyone in golf; and c) most of my discretionary money in the coming years will be headed toward our state's final public universities in the form of tuition. ;)

In short, I'm not their target audience, irregardless of how much I fake knowing about it by posting about it here at GCA. :D

The broader question is: Can the course hold up, as an economic thing, in this market? I think it can -- and I think the renovations and tweaking and improved conditioning (which tend to draw a discerning and sometimes critical eye here on GCA) have improved the course for their target audience, i.e, serious golfers who want to test their game on a US Open-worthy course. After all, there aren't too many of those, anywhere, for the non-access trolling crowd (Pinehurst, TPines, BBlack, Ch. Bay).

Fewer, arguably, than private, national-membership golf courses in the sandy, choppy, hilly, rock/cattle-strewn lands of the great West. :o

Terry Lavin

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #139 on: August 29, 2011, 02:39:10 PM »
I, for one, am not all that interested in the process.  Like politics, some of the process of creating the various iterations of this young golf course may have been a bit like making sausage.  It it's good in the end, I'll be a happy consumer.  Am I less pleased with the nearly final product if some architectural pleasantries may have been offended in the process?  Heck no, because I like the resulting product and I'm excited for them to host a US Open, even at the perceived expense of another, more venerated club that I've been a member of (Olympia) and at the expense of a great public course (Cog Hill) that I've always had affection for.

We're talking about Erin Hills which wants to host a US Open, not Old Macdonald which deservedly hosted a US Publinks.  One is primarily a business oriented proposition and the other is more the passion product of a true patrician of the game.  Both worthy pursuits, but different.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kirk

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #140 on: August 29, 2011, 03:06:27 PM »
Gary Koch said it was an 8 mile walk from 1 tee to 18 green.  I'm not so sure it is 'that' long.  But, easy walk was not accurate in version 1.  We walked it with push carts after a heavy rain, and it was a real slog.  My friend walked it with caddie a couple of weeks ago, and said it was long. 

I'm having a hard time imagining the average golfer 12-15 handi, even from up tees can play this course in less than 4.5hours. 

I played it walking and carrying my bag in less than 3.5 last fall.  Its not that bad.

OK, Sven, but I've walked and carried at Stone Eagle in under 3 hours, though I was working hard for exercise.  Few consider Stone Eagle a walkable course.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #141 on: August 29, 2011, 04:41:38 PM »
Quote
We're talking about Erin Hills which wants to host a US Open, not Old Macdonald which deservedly hosted a US Publinks.  One is primarily a business oriented proposition and the other is more the passion product of a true patrician of the game.  Both worthy pursuits, but different.

Terry, I truly don't know which is which in your observation.  Is MK a true patrician of the game and Ziegler running it as a 'primarily business oriented prop'?  Or, is it the other way around.  Because, Z said in his interview that he is OK with it merely 'breaking even'.  Yet, to my knowledge, Z is a member of Milwaukee CC but up until now, hasn't actually been what one would call a true patrician of the game of any other longstanding noteworthy endeavor in golf.  (Or has he?)  Yet, he is obviously a very big time investment star.  On the other hand, MK has now quite a noteworthy global legacy as a true patrician of the game, but as a primarily business oriented guy, he isn't exactly chopped liver!  :o ;D 8)  Who is who?

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Phil McDade

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #142 on: August 29, 2011, 05:18:58 PM »
RJ:

The connections between Milwaukee CC and EHills are quite interesting -- see reply #15 of this thread and the link for details. (The short story -- influential members of MCC shepherded EHills' entree into the world of the USGA and its site selection process, and were also instrumental at getting Ziegler to be the financial savior of the place.)


George Freeman

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #143 on: August 29, 2011, 05:26:39 PM »
I continue to be a big fan of EH.  The course looked great on TV yesterday and appeared to be playing at near ideal conditions.  IMO, it is more interesting to watch that type of golf vs. overwatered, tree-lined fairway parkland layouts, by a long shot.

And for everyone chirping about how tough of a walk it is, I would have to disagree.  I have carried twice out there, and although it isn't the EASIEST walk in the world (there are a decent amount of ups and downs), I didn't think the walk was that bad at all.

If you live within 2 hours of the course and haven't seen it yet, you're definitely missing out.  Especially if you catch it on a day when it plays as firm as it was displayed this week.
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #144 on: August 29, 2011, 05:59:42 PM »
Brad and George,

Call me a BB, but I think these essays are worth a read.  It speaks to what minimalism is when large earthmoving may be required.  Like I said, I don't think it's about the dirt.  It's about what that dirt looks like when it's moved and how it interacts with its surrounds.  Rawls looks like something you could find in the eroded areas southeast of Lubbock or a number of other red dirt areas of west Texas.  Flying over it, it looks like it could occur naturally.  Shadow Creek?  Not so much.  

http://www.renaissancegolf.com/thoughts/minimalism_defined/

http://dev.brightbridge.net/RGD/selected_essays/play_it_as_it_lies/

Terry Lavin

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #145 on: August 29, 2011, 06:33:59 PM »
Brad and George,

Call me a BB, but I think these essays are worth a read.  It speaks to what minimalism is when large earthmoving may be required.  Like I said, I don't think it's about the dirt.  It's about what that dirt looks like when it's moved and how it interacts with its surrounds.  Rawls looks like something you could find in the eroded areas southeast of Lubbock or a number of other red dirt areas of west Texas.  Flying over it, it looks like it could occur naturally.  Shadow Creek?  Not so much.  

http://www.renaissancegolf.com/thoughts/minimalism_defined/

http://dev.brightbridge.net/RGD/selected_essays/play_it_as_it_lies/

Ben,

There is surely merit in what you say but it ain't dogma. There's nothing more useless in our society than absolutism whether we are talking about golf course design, cultural issues or debt ceiling debates. Give and take, flexibility and compromise is the lubrication of civilized folks. If one wants to take any position to an extreme you wind up sounding extremist. Which sounds pretty boring and uninformed to me.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #146 on: August 29, 2011, 06:44:22 PM »
Terry,

Well said.  I understand I become more like Melvyn when I make posts like my previous.  But I do believe the process is as important as the product.  I have to believe that it is.  I am ingrained in a community and culture that demands accountability for not only the security it provides, but how it provides it.  I am not aggressively shrewd enough in the ways of the business world to believe solely in product.

But thanks for the flint to my steel.  I understand where Brad is coming from.  I just wanted to defend against "dirt moved" as an identifier to what I believe to be a very important era for golf architecture.   

Howard Riefs

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #147 on: September 06, 2011, 04:22:16 PM »
Ron Whitten weighed in with a review of how Erin Hills played during the Amateur:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/09/erin-hills-post-game-review.html#entry-more

He also tongue-in-cheek tipped his cap to GCA:

Quote
I’m just happy that Erin Hills’s performance during the U.S. Amateur has resulted in more golfers appreciating what is admittedly a very primitive, minimalist, lay-of-the-land design. Heck, even some of the Golf Club Atlas crowd grudgingly approves of it.

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Howard Riefs

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #148 on: November 18, 2011, 01:37:28 AM »
Mike Davis and Erin Hills aren't wasting any time in making course tweaks. From an end-of-season email I received from EH:

During the off-season, these minor improvements will be made to the course, with both daily play and the 2017 U.S. Open in mind:

•  new 405 tee on the 5th hole   
•  extension of the 487 tee on the 8th hole
•  enlarging the right fairway bunker on the 3rd hole
•  new fairway bunkers on the left of the 7th hole
•  enhanced target greens on the practice area
•  attacking invasive grasses in the fairways
•  new bridge from the 13th green to the 14th tee


I'm sure Phil can weigh in on these changes as he's most familiar with the course and how it played during the Amateur.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

PCCraig

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Re: Erin Hills and the Amateur
« Reply #149 on: November 18, 2011, 08:03:45 AM »
Mike Davis and Erin Hills aren't wasting any time in making course tweaks. From an end-of-season email I received from EH:

During the off-season, these minor improvements will be made to the course, with both daily play and the 2017 U.S. Open in mind:

•  attacking invasive grasses in the fairways





Attacking invasive grasses? Anyone know what this is?
H.P.S.