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Ian Andrew

Hard par/ Easy bogie
« on: August 18, 2011, 08:09:38 PM »
This may be a little out of the box….

I have often wondered whether the concept of “hard par and easy bogie” represents the low point of golf architecture.

A flat rollercoaster has no appeal. One with a single big drop has some limited short term appeal. But a roller coaster with a series of interesting twists and turns gains our undivided attention and has us lining up to ride again and again.

Rollercoaster design is far more complicated than simply sticking a series of endless thrills together one right after the other until the ride ends. If we tried this approach we would simply leave the rider vomiting.

The real secret to rollercoaster design is the space between thrills. Rollercoaster designers understand the rider must be given the opportunity to “recuperate” before the next thrill. Designers know to the second how long it takes to lower the heart rate, not back to normal, but to a point where the rider is prepared for what is ahead.

I used to think that the magical element of rhythm was an impossible concept to design, but lately I’m becoming more and more convinced that it just might be possible.

I think designers have to think more about juxtaposition. Every course needs a hole or two, or even a run of holes that become all about perseverance where a par is a celebrated score. In contrast I also believe it’s essential that every course should also have a hole or two, or series of holes where every player is thinking birdie. There should be clear cut moments where every player feels some freedom and others where you understand that only your best will do.

Most clubs spend a great deal of money making the hardest holes easier and the easy ones harder. And yet no approach could lead to a more average and uninspiring golf course. They are following the concept of hard par and easy bogie to achieve consistency. The net result is the golfer is never overwhelmed or at ease. This is golf without any thrills or reprieves. The concept represents the standardization of the game.

Yet this concept runs contrary to golf’s greatest attraction, its variety. What hard par and easy bogie does is remove any potential to develop the highs and lows that matter a great deal in a round. Golf needs its rhythms to make the experience special.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 08:45:33 PM »
I'll try it out on Monday as I'm scheduled to play RTJ's Speidel Course at Oglebay Park Resort in West VA.

This will be my third RTJ course.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 09:06:47 PM »
Ian:

Great post, could not agree more how many clubs have weakened the harder holes over the years, at the same time they're ruining the short par-4's by making them longer.

The two best designers at mixing up long par-4's and short par-4's were Dr. MacKenzie and Pete Dye.  I'm just following suit.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 09:10:05 PM »
Ian:

Great post, could not agree more how many clubs have weakened the harder holes over the years, at the same time they're ruining the short par-4's by making them longer.

The two best designers at mixing up long par-4's and short par-4's were Dr. MacKenzie and Pete Dye.  I'm just following suit.



amazing how many amateur and Club Pro events are set up this way also.
Lengthen short holes and shorten long ones ::) ::)
I fight this when the Section comes to play events at our place-their arguement is the older players won't play if they can't reach a par 4 in regulation
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 10:54:57 PM »
Ian -

Brilliant connection between roller coaster and golf course design.

I think that hard par easy bogey is a good concept in general.  But, yes if you don't break it often you'll end up with a boring course.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2011, 11:00:11 PM »
Ian:

Great post, could not agree more how many clubs have weakened the harder holes over the years, at the same time they're ruining the short par-4's by making them longer.

The two best designers at mixing up long par-4's and short par-4's were Dr. MacKenzie and Pete Dye.  I'm just following suit.

Who gets credit for Dornoch?   I love the 14-15 and 4-5 pairings.  Great rhythm. 

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2011, 11:21:01 PM »


Ian,
Awesome post and I agree with Morgan about the connection between roller coaster and golf design.
I really believe the "roller coaster' effect is why Wolf Point has been so well received by most who have visited.
One reason I believe it works so well at WP is we never, ever play stroke play. It’s a match play golf course and it says so right on the card. So par is irrelevant, we play shots and try to beat the guy or team we’re playing against. We play three par 4s less than 300 yds, and we play three at 460+. We have short par 3s and one that plays 248 into the wind. The course ebbs and flows beautifully and that’s what makes it so great.
I guarantee if WP was in the hands of most owners, a lot of the thrills and lulls would probably get rubbed out in the interest of fairness, or good golf, or whatever. That approach is one reason I seldom enter into conversations about individual holes. A great golf course is a collection of holes, and to examine one hole without studying how it fits within the scheme of the entire course just seems silly to me. No one just plays one hole and no one just sits on a roller coaster for 10 seconds. It is the quality of the ride that matters.   
 

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2011, 01:10:47 AM »
Ian,
That is a terrific concept as well as a neat analogy. The idea particularly appeals to me as someone without a great deal of architectural insight and only having played relatively few courses. The idea of a breathing space punctuated with the adrenalin rush would allow me to recognise a real difference between holes. Having hung my hat on that peg I can stand back and look at the holes in relation to one another and see more clearly what is going on.  I suspect that many golfers with limited knowledge/appreciation of golf course architecture would twig to this also if it was presented in this manner.

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Jim Nugent

Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2011, 02:07:46 AM »
How do the famous/top-ranked courses do by Ian's criteria of balance? 

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2011, 02:34:14 AM »
Ian,

I'm not sure your title captures the essence of your post.  Does anyone still design hard par/easy bogey courses anymore?  I agree they would be bland courses if every hole was designed that way.

I was wondering if you could comment on whether you think Bond Head South would exemplify rhythm for you.  Just on the front nine:

A short straight forward par 4 to start,

A long stern uphill par 4, followed by a long difficult par 3 and then a long tough very much uphill par 4,

Followed by a breather short par 3 and a driveable downhill par 4,

Followed by a daunting 600+ yard par 5 and a long par 4, the number 1 stroke hole,

Followed by a birdieable short par 5.

I'd never thought of it in terms of your description of rhythm, but I think it fits pretty well.  I always think of it as trying to survive the first four holes by not messing up the first, try to gain some strokes on 5 and 6.  Try not to screw up too badly on 7 and 8.  Try to wrap up a good score on 9.  The 2,3,4 stretch and the 7,8 stretch are like going over the precipice on the roller coaster.

Despite all the short respite holes on the course, nobody in the Canadian Open qualifiers has been able to take the course apart, and those short holes do provide a break for us average golfers.


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2011, 04:10:30 AM »
Can we award this August's "Post of the month"?...

Ran - a new concept to elevate everyone's thought processes?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 07:08:20 AM »
Ian,

Yes, you might be in the post of the month, or even post of the year category.  I have tried for years to get a design philosophy without a famous hole example thread going, and never got 20 respsonses!

The other way RTJ "balanced" out difficulty was short holes into the wind and long ones down wind, which I think should be opposite to accentuate the differences, even if a long par 4 may not be reachable in two shots.  That one is usually hard for members to accept, even though the drivable 4 and reachable 5 seem acceptable. 

Of course, I often joke that they follow the pro tour and its trend of "hard birdie, easy par" or "easy to birdie with one great shot (not two, plus a great putt) and okay to par....Only in the majors does it seem that a hole where "par picks up ground on the field" seem acceptable on the pro tour.  That said, there isn't much fun in really hard holes on a daily basis, if you are of the card and pencil type.

In many designs and master plans, I have tried to explain it with the simple phrases "Nothing wrong with a hard hole once in a while" or  "Nothing wrong with an easy hole once in a while."  At one point, I purposely tried to design 4 easy holes into each golf course, with a seldom attained "target" of 1, 5, 10, and 15 as being easy holes.  When watching the closing holes at the PGA last week, I wondered if having the 15th being easier might not have helped that sequence.

BTW, I have fiddled with the concept of "dividing holes" into their components, assigning a numeric difficulty value from 1-3 for tee shot, approach, and approach putt.  Would most holes average a "2" on all those components, whether all factors were a 2, or there was a 1, 2, and 3 rankings for each, but they averaged 2?

Or, would you prefer a few holes to average closer to 1 and 3?  Is there any strategic value if a hard tee shot results in only a hard approach, and a hard approach, successfully done, yields only a hard putt?  I think there is some merit to average difficulty holes having a different variet of shot difficulty, as in a hard tee shot resulting in an easy approach, with average putting difficulty.  A similar length hole might have an easy tee shot and approach, with harder putting, and stil average a bit under 2 or medium difficulty, but the scores might be the same.

Okay, so this post fits in the "pre-coffee morning ramble" category, but the above is meant to demonstrate that even average difficulty holes can have some variety, depending on which shots within them are hard, medium and easy.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2011, 07:33:22 AM »
I completely agree with Ian's post and have advocated that, to the extent we alter the lengths of holes at my course, it should be to lengthen the long holes rather than the short ones in order to maintain the rhythm of our course.  Phil Mickelson has made the same suggestion an a few times.

The most entertaining tournament courses have the types of stretches in them that Ian discusses -

Pebble Beach (1-6 followed by 8-12);

The Old Course - with the loop in the middle;

TPC Scottsdale with that run from 15-17 (perhaps a good venue only because of that stretch); 

TPC Sawgrass starts each side with birdie holes and then has a more "meat and potatoes" middle then a finish that includes a 3,4 and 5.

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2011, 07:46:34 AM »
I like the rythym concept. My home club has 2 courses and I looked at the course designed by Bob Cupp and ranked the holes as D = difficult, M = medium, and E = easy. I see:

M M E E D D M M D
M D E M M E E D D

The hardest holes are spaced out until 17 and 18. No long strings as 2 in a row is the longest flow. Of the 6 holes I ranked as difficult five are par 4s and one is a par 5. The five easy holes are 2 par 5s, 2 par 3s, one par 4. Nice balance and flow. Better than 18 Ms or Ds.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2011, 07:56:29 AM »
Since someone is just finishing their analysis of the front nine holes at Ballyneal, it's worth noting that the sequence of holes there is something like this:

M D E   D M D   E E M


It's also worth noting that the two holes which everybody loves the most are two easy ones, in relation to par.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2011, 08:03:34 AM »
How do the famous/top-ranked courses do by Ian's criteria of balance? 

I think RTJ gets unfairly hit up here. Let's take a look at Spyglass a course than many of us have played, and most would call it a hard course. Here are the numbers from the 6534 Gold tees. Yardages via - http://www.greenskeeper.org/central_california/monterey_santa_cruz_san_luis_obispo/Spyglass_Hill_Golf_Course/scorecard.cfm


Front 9
   
564
   
321
   
146
   
358
   
169
   
413
   
513
   
375
   
414

Back 9
Gold
   
377
   
491
   
160
   
435
   
525
   
120
   
454
   
312
   
387

To me Spyglass on the course and on the card has awfully good balance, with a number of scoring opportunities. I have only played it twice so I can't say from memory where the toughness comes from on all of those shorter holes other than demanding very precise shots. With scoring clubs in your hand on holes 2-4, it puts added pressure on the better player to make a good score on those holes. Yet, it is a resort course so why kill the hackers' round after 4 holes?

I disagree with the premise that hard par/easy bogey was a low point in GCA.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2011, 08:45:15 AM »
Ian,

Great post.  Puts into relief one of the reasons I love my club so much.  It also highlights what I dislike about some championship courses.  There's no letup.  Just one relentless tough slog that never gives the average member much chance to really catch their breath.  Furthermore the type of difficult hole is much more interesting IMO if it has some twists and turns or loops rather than just being one long steep drop after another.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2011, 08:50:21 AM »
Ian

Could you explain better teh low point of GCA concerning easy bogey and hard par?  I always that this concept was one of the pillars of strategic design and hence the reason for offering the rabbit and turte routes.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2011, 09:16:14 AM »
TD,

Perhaps we have found the holy grail of golf design - make it easy to make it popular!  Based on my experience, I am not surprised.  As I have written in previous posts, I have noticed that my really hard courses gradually seem to be losing play to my other courses in the same markets.

But, that brings up another related mental issue of golf.  Golfers do want to shoot their average score, and they love besting it.  However, if all they wanted was the lowest score, they would move forward a few tees, so they could report shooting near par.  (I once told everyone in school of my 35, not mentioning it was on a par 27 par 3 course)

So, they want a good score, but do not like to do it on a condescendingly easy course.  So, where is that perfect balance?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2011, 09:30:01 AM »
the funniest thing about architect designing in the hard par easy bogey mentality is that they often wound up building courses that are:
easy for pros because of the lack of caracter of the course
and almost unplayable for the average guys because of the over-protected greens.


I prefer the scottish links course mantra:
easy par, easy double bogey

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2011, 09:32:22 AM »
Since someone is just finishing their analysis of the front nine holes at Ballyneal, it's worth noting that the sequence of holes there is something like this:

M D E   D M D   E E M


It's also worth noting that the two holes which everybody loves the most are two easy ones, in relation to par.

After being short, in the left bunker and in the back right bunker in my three plays, I disagree that #3 is Easy!  I thought it was a bit perplexing to find the right spot to land the ball.  One well struck 8-iron hit to the left planning a carom right to a pin behind the ridge actually bounced a bit left into the bunker!

This is one reason I have never really bought into the theory that moving up a set of tees suddenly makes a course a lot easier.  The majority of shots are still played around the greens, where par should be defended.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2011, 10:42:19 AM »
TD,

Perhaps we have found the holy grail of golf design - make it easy to make it popular!  Based on my experience, I am not surprised.  As I have written in previous posts, I have noticed that my really hard courses gradually seem to be losing play to my other courses in the same markets.

But, that brings up another related mental issue of golf.  Golfers do want to shoot their average score, and they love besting it.  However, if all they wanted was the lowest score, they would move forward a few tees, so they could report shooting near par.  (I once told everyone in school of my 35, not mentioning it was on a par 27 par 3 course)

So, they want a good score, but do not like to do it on a condescendingly easy course.  So, where is that perfect balance?

Jeff:

I think the perfect balance has a lot to do with (a) the course being a beautiful place, and (b) the easy holes having some features that leave the potential for a big number.

The 7th and 8th at Ballyneal are both good examples:  both have a fairway bunker that could destroy you, and both have wild greens.  But on both you are probably only going to be hitting an approach shot from inside 100 yards, so it's not so ridiculous to ask the player to get his ball in right portion of the green.

I was just back at North Berwick a couple of weeks ago -- it is a course FULL of such holes.  There are a couple of very difficult par-4's -- the 2nd and 17th -- but the balance surely tilts toward easy, as it's barely 6500 yards from the tips [and they don't let you play from the tips].  Some low-handicap guys pooh-pooh the course, but most people just love it, as do I. 

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2011, 12:54:08 PM »
Ian,

I love the rollercoaster analogy; it can physically relate to terrain as well--ups and downs and twists and turns (choppy hills, wooded areas) versus straightaway speed (wide open flats).  I've always taken care to balance and sequence these elements whenever I have done a mock-routing and the site to do so.  Going back strictly to coasters, this is why I love the Millenium Force so much. The best lift hill and drop in the world, followed by a massive embankment, then a speedy straightaway, big hill with lots of airtime, embankment, straightaway, embankment, medium hill with good airtime, straightaway, small hill with surprising airtime, embankment, end, relief.  The sequencing of this coaster makes one really appreciate the hills and the airtime you get while getting treated to sheer speed as a break in between them.  This in my opinion is what makes it stand out over the Magnum, which is basically nonstop hills and thrills the whole way through.  Fellow Cedar Point geeks will know what I am talking about.

Regarding golf courses, there are a few examples of "breaks in the ride" that stand out most to me and make the course better as a whole. 

-The end of the property at North Berwick is a nice bit of relief from the early and middle part of the front nine before the course gets wild again starting with 12 (though 12 is still sort of on "that" part of the property, I think it is an awesome hole).

-The 10th green at Kingsley is one of my favorite on the golf course.  Standing alone, it might finish around last (it is still a good and difficult green, just not wildly entertaining like the rest), but its setting and location in the round make it a perfect bridge from the craziness of the front nine to the great holes and greens of the back nine.  I have found myself physically exhaling when going to play my putt or shot around this green, and when I think about it, it is probably more how it looks than how it plays.

-The first few holes and the last two at Askernish add a change of scenery that I personally really like and also keep the entire course more manageable. 18 holes of 7-16, though amazing, would take its toll mentally and physically as well as possibly water down how awesome some of those holes are.

-The first hole at TOC is just like a lift hill on a rollercoaster.  It might be the easiest part of the ride, but it might also be the most nerve-wracking.

"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Ian Andrew

Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2011, 07:20:21 PM »
To me Spyglass on the course and on the card has awfully good balance, with a number of scoring opportunities.

Mike,

But the game is not played on the card.

The vast majority of shots to all the fours are uphill to elevated greens after you finish the 6th.
While I can appreciate the “pressure” it exerts, it’s the exact same experience all the way in with only slight variations.
It's dull golf.

To add to that, the threes are all downhill over water on the back nine and the par fives all finished behind a pond (till Fazio made the change).

I found the course never changed the pace, it was a consistent call for execution after the first five..



Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hard par/ Easy bogie
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2011, 09:04:35 AM »
TD,

Perhaps we have found the holy grail of golf design - make it easy to make it popular!  Based on my experience, I am not surprised.  As I have written in previous posts, I have noticed that my really hard courses gradually seem to be losing play to my other courses in the same markets.

But, that brings up another related mental issue of golf.  Golfers do want to shoot their average score, and they love besting it.  However, if all they wanted was the lowest score, they would move forward a few tees, so they could report shooting near par.  (I once told everyone in school of my 35, not mentioning it was on a par 27 par 3 course)

So, they want a good score, but do not like to do it on a condescendingly easy course.  So, where is that perfect balance?

Jeff

There you have the essence of it in my humble opinion. Even average golfers like me relish a challenge, even if we are not up to it or where the challenge is more perceived than actual. That later trick was one that MacKenzie was good at from the little I've seen of his courses.

Getting the rythym right must be more than just alternating hard and easy holes. Again in my experience I think you get more of an effect where you can group similarly challenging holes together (Amen Corner ?). At the end of the day do you try and balance it up or do you leave the course either hard or easy on balance ? Indeed what effect do the last few holes of a course to the memory in comparison to the first few. Do they tend to skew the view of the course away from what an analysis of the individual holes might add up to ?

Niall

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