[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Last year, Hazeltine rebuilt greens land opened for play June 7. Now, some of them have failed.

http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/golf/98/hazeltine-national-closes-some-newly-grassed-greens

[John Kavanaugh]

Tattletale.  I think this entire website could be full with such stories this year.  I don't get the purpose of this thread.

[Dan Kelly]

I don't get the purpose of this thread.

John --

Call me a cynic, but ...

Check the url of the link.

Dan (w/ no connection to Hazeltine)

[Andy Ryall]

Not surprising to hear the newer greens having difficulty at HNGC.

The course I belong to, the equally as famous and well-regarded, Island View Golf Club, is located about 7 miles west of HNGC and I can attest to the extreme weather conditions that have plagued Minnesota this year.  Our course escaped the winter mainly unscathed, unlike many of the Twin Cities better courses, but in late July we were hit with 3 inches of rain, followed by a week of extreme heat and humidity.   Dewpoints were in the 80s and Heat Indices were north of 120, which resulted in outbreaks of pythium and brown patch at Island View.   Some of the greens and many of the fairways have dead spots due to the disease despite having mature turf.   Just a nightmare from a superintendent's perspective.   We are blessed with an excellent super, Kurt Knox, who has done a remarkable job keeping the course playable throughout the year.

[PCCraig]

What a way to promote a new website.

It was a tough summer to manage mature greens in Minnesota, let alone a brand new set like at Hazeltine. Now that the weather here has been far less extreme than it was in July I'm sure the greens will recover shortly.

[Jason Topp]

Andy is correct.  We sodded a section of our 7th green.  One week it looked perfect and I questioned why the super had not sodded the entire green.  After the hottest week, the new sod just cooked.  The sodded portion looked as bad as the rest of the green.

Extremely wet winter caused damage.  Extremely cold and rainy spring gave no opportunity to dry out and little opportunity to grow and then hot humid weather combined with huge amounts of rain caused soil temps to rise dramatically.  Many mature turf courses sufferred and have not yet recovered despite a couple weeks of good weather.  

[Rick Shefchik]

Despite what seemed like an ideal cycle of rain and hot weather, my backyard in Stillwater, Minn., developed numerous dead spots, the likes of which we'd never seen before. Fortunately, three miles away at Stillwater CC, the fairways suffered minimal damage (a few dead spots in low areas where water had pooled for several days), and the greens were unharmed. We've got a good super, but there's got to be luck involved, too.

[SL_Solow]

A few questions.  When the site says they were cored out, does it mean they were built to USGA specs or something else?  What varieties of grass were planted?  When was the seeding completed last year?  Are there shade or air movement issues with the greens that have been shut down that are more significant than the greens that remain open?  Was there significant winter kill on those greens?

[Jeff Shelman]

Shel,

Here from a release when the course reopened:

Course Transformation
The 7,674-yard, Robert Trent Jones-designed golf course underwent its first major update since
1986. Root zones of all the greens were cored out and all putting surfaces were reseeded with
creeping bent grass, making them firm and fast for the entire season. The fairways and the first
eight feet of the roughs were also regrassed. The result is a fast and firm playing surface on a
consistent basis, while making the course more environmentally sustainable by using less water and
fewer inputs.

[SL_Solow]

Jeff;  I read that before I posted..  It really tells us very little.  What does cored out mean until we know what filled in the core?  Creeping bent grass?  Given the numerous cultivars available that says nothing.  Timing of reseeding would tell us something about the ability to develop a good grow in.  Winter kill is significant when the hot weather comes as turf that was weak going into the season is likely to have more trouble if the weather gets dicey..  That is why I asked.  Perhaps I have been a Green Chairman too long and spent too much time with the real professionals, the Greenkeepers.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

SL:

My query as to what kind of grass was used on the greens was not answered. Cored out means the material in which the grass grows, and sometimes down to the native soil, was removed. There was no significant winter kill from what I've been told by golfers familiar with the layout. I do know that Edina regrassed with T-1.

Anthony

[Jeff Shelman]

It has been a tough summer here in Minneapolis. High humity, too much moisture, extreme temperatures.

I played at Hazeltine shortly after it reopened in June and the greens were perfect.

I think it is a challenge to limit play when a club has been closed for nearly a year and members have paid dues the entire time. And unlike at some clubs, the folks at Hazeltine like to play.

I would anticipate that things will get back to normal in reasonably short order. The place generally has awesome conditioning. Would guess that won't change.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Just found out that Rees consulted on the project and A-4 was used on the greens.

Anthony

[Greg Tallman]

Jeff;  I read that before I posted..  It really tells us very little.  What does cored out mean until we know what filled in the core?  Creeping bent grass?  Given the numerous cultivars available that says nothing.  Timing of reseeding would tell us something about the ability to develop a good grow in.  Winter kill is significant when the hot weather comes as turf that was weak going into the season is likely to have more trouble if the weather gets dicey..  That is why I asked.  Perhaps I have been a Green Chairman too long and spent too much time with the real professionals, the Greenkeepers.

Interesting in that their release could lead one to believe that they did not remove all material down to the drainage which would be the most standard procedure. They suggest they went only as deep as the roots... could be one and the same but could suggest they did not take out all sub-soils / gravel. 

[SL_Solow]

Greg;  As i understand it, Hazeltine was opened in 1962.  The USGA published its first iteration of specs for putting greens in 1960.  I don't know whether Hazeltine's greens were built to USGA spec or later modified to that spec.  That is why "cored out" is so interesting.  It is clear that whoever wrote the document which has been referenced was not interested in a technical description; it was more of a puff piece.  If the information provided is correct I am a little surprised that only one of the A's was used for grassing, here in Chicago most clubs have thrown some A1 into the mix.

[Anthony_Nysse]

It's ver common for a course that has good drainage OR have greens that were once built to USGA spec, to only remove the thatch/organic material upon resurfacing. Pine Tree rebuilt to USGA spec in 1997 and when tifeagle was installed in 2005, the top 4" were removed, refloated and sprigged. Briarwood in Chicago is coring out theirs now.

[SL_Solow]

Tony;  I am the member most involved at Briarwood.  I can assure you we are not coring out any greens.  Our greens are old fashioned push up greens with XGD having been installed last year.  The XGD has worked perfectly.  We just finished gassing the greens with methyl bromide after heacy verticutting, a drill and fill procedure and deep tine aeration.  Yesterday we started seeding and will finish 19 greens by early tomorrow.  No coring.  We used the same procedure on a practice green a few years ago to great effect.

[Anthony_Nysse]

You are correct. Justin has allowed my to see a bunch of pics of the work to this point and let me first say that I think you're going to have some great surfaces upon completion.  I think you're reseeding with an A series on the greens and some thing else on the approaches?
  For lay mans terms, I guess I used coring out as and example because of the XGD already installed, the verticutting, scalping, vertidraining and drill and fill. The most important thing to this entire process is that the subsurface has be altered and adjusted to produce a much better growing medium.
  What was done at Hazeltine is a little confusing to me because I had thought that they has some sort of sub air/ precision air installed, which would, I'm many cases, require an extensive amount of renovation work because of the the needed drain lines and outlets for the air and maoistture.
  In any case,  if courses in Minnesota are having to close greens, it's been a difficult summer for everyone, especially a juvinile plant at a course with deep pockets.

[SL_Solow]

Anthony;  Thanks.  Your point underscores my confusion about Hazeltine.  I recall the problems in Wisconsin and Minnesota from a couple of years ago when they had massive winter kill but I had not been aware of similar conditions this year.  The descriptions of the work do not help in understanding exactly what they are trying to do other than change the cultivar.

[Jason Topp]

Anthony;  Thanks.  Your point underscores my confusion about Hazeltine.  I recall the problems in Wisconsin and Minnesota from a couple of years ago when they had massive winter kill but I had not been aware of similar conditions this year.  The descriptions of the work do not help in understanding exactly what they are trying to do other than change the cultivar.

SL:

My understanding is that several of the people driving the project play at Butler National at times and rave about the work done there.  It was probably a model for their work.

This year has been far more difficult for courses in MSP than the winter kill year because growing conditions have been unusually difficult during the season for us.  Our course is looking at an XGD option for some push ups built in 1960 where the soil mix is significantly inferior to the mix used on greens from the 1920s.

[Adam Clayman]

Bent grass, and fast and firm, seem oxymoronic.

A friend's son was just in Alabama and said they are trying to reverse the sub-air systems while introducing cooling water to the profile.

Do any of you supers think this type of therapy will help resist mother nature's cruelty?

BTW, Eddie's been out spraying, almost every night, for all the diseases at Glencoe. According to him, they are getting huge kudos for their conditions, compared to most.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Adam, 
  I'm sure that I don't have to tell that bent grass will never be firm in Alabama in the summer. All this was talked about last week, hence the reason that East Lake and AAC have switched out to an ultradwarf.
  I'm going to guess the system that you're describing is called Precision Aire. It has the ability to blow hot or cold air into the drain line of the greens site, thus cooling or heat the plant. This system has been used at TPC Sawgrass and Southern Hills, to name a few. In fact, Tom Vlach of TPC tested the greens this past winter that had it installed vs the one that didn't and found a 4-5 degree difference in temperature. ( or there a bouts) that can be the difference between healthy and life support or winter kill and survival.

[Dan Herrmann]

I don't see any issue at all with shutting greens if it's needed.  A golf course is a living thing, and sometimes it just needs to heal.  

Closing a green doesn't indicate anything but the custodians of the course deciding to let it recover properly.

(Honestly, I don't know how our friends in Texas are handling their conditions.  I really hope and pray for an end to their horrible weather pattern)

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