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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2011, 03:26:28 PM »
Yes, 100 is manageable, if you take the time to manage it.  None of the magazines really manage their panels at all, though.  Too many headaches, not enough reward, so they let a lot of stuff slide.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2011, 04:06:03 PM »
I have to congratulate Mike Young on one of the finest thread jacks ever, even if he did get Fawn's name wrong.   And the line is, "Do you mind if we dance with yo dates..."   Yo.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2011, 04:09:18 PM »

I have to congratulate Mike Young on one of the finest thread jacks ever, even if he did get Fawn's name wrong.   And the line is, "Do you mind if we dance with yo dates..."   Yo.


Shouldn't with be wif?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2011, 04:17:22 PM »

I have to congratulate Mike Young on one of the finest thread jacks ever, even if he did get Fawn's name wrong.   And the line is, "Do you mind if we dance with yo dates..."   Yo.


Shouldn't with be wif?

I believe you are correct, sir.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2011, 04:41:44 PM »
It was FAWN Leibowitz who died in the kiln explosion.

And Daniel Simpson Day has no grade point average!

Oh my my my....my mistake ;D

Why are you so smart ?  were you there the day the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2011, 10:25:35 PM »
Individual contributions to an aggregate crowd perspective are directly influenced by the reward system underlying the contributions.  In financial markets, for instance, you put your money where your mouth is, and the collective view of varying and contrary opinions arrives at the crowd-sourced pricing of securities.  

Specifically, there's great potential value to being a contrarian in cases where independent actors with local knowledge have reason to behave contrary to the crowd.

If you look at the reward system for magazine rating, there doesn't appear to be any significant benefit to buck the consensus, and significant downside for the same.  Effectively, this disincentives indepedent, contrary contributions.

The rating system that places Jefferson park as the countries 3rd best course, while interesting, probably isn't the alternative, either.

Interestingly, horse race betting markets are a great example of the wisdom of crowds, as the collective estimation of the odds, as derived by the pubic, has been shown to be the best predictor of actual odds of any measure.

Too  much "expert" influnece on the horse racing odds to be labeled "derived by the public".

It's that kind of expert information that helps make race markets efficient and the odds remarkably predictive.

Back in the day, my passion was horse racing.  I scored a copy of the betting version of "The Confidential Guide", "The Efficiency of Racetrack Betting Markets", http://www.amazon.com/Efficiency-Racetrack-Betting-Markets-Donald/dp/9812819185/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1

This book is kind of a "Anarchist's Cookbook" for betting, and likely just as dangerous in the right hands.  The very first article, from 1948, "Odds Adjustments By American Horse-Race Bettors", by R. M. Griffith, starts:

"In horse-race betting, the odds on the various horses in any race are a functioning of the proportion of the total money bet on each and hence are socially determined..  On the other hand, the objective probability for winners from any group of horses is given a posteriori by the percentage of winners."  (Emphasis added)

The primary conclusion of the paper is that:

"The socially determined odds on horses in races are, on the average, correct reflections of the horses' chances."

My own research, on 10's of thousands of races in the early 2000's confirms this research.  In fact, in trying to develop betting models using 100's of independent variables, I could only improve on the predictive value of the public odds by including the public odds in the equations.  I could find no combination of values that were more predictive than what the "wisdom of crowds" came up with.  (including the public odds in the models, I could improve on the predictive model by incorporating under and over weighted variables, such as beaten lengths (over) and 4f and 5f workouts (under)).

this thread is about magazine raters, and I don't think this crowd has the dynamic required.  First, the selection process for those qualified if only by dint of access seems to introduce a strong selection bias.  Second, the concept of local information is more consistent with horse racing, moving money in when the barn knows something, than in golf course rating, where it would seem to reflect whether individuals have access to a course, or not.  However, this could also reflect local information on the strategic nature of a course, in which case this expert knowledge would have a salutory effect on the ratings.

Third, if there are real or perceived disincentives to deviate from the consensus ratings, for example by rating Pine Valley 50th and risking losing your rating priveleges, then there is a risk of some social bias in the ratings.  Given the volatility shown in the 30 year Golf Magazine retrospective, at least below the top 20, this may only be an issue at the top, or it may reflect an objective reflection of the course quality.

Unfortunately, unlike horse racing, there is no objective measure of course quality by which to review the question.  Access to the ballot details could possibly tease out other biases: they do some pretty fancy things with statistics these days.  That's beyond my skills, though.

Instead. Maybe line up all the raters and their editors at the gates of Pine Valley, yell go, then..

"May I have 10,000 marbles, please?"

The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Jim Nugent

Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2011, 12:31:55 AM »
David, how well do public odds predict the horse races?  i.e. I get that they do a better job than most other systems.  How good is that, though?  btw, I suspect the best way to predict the races is with inside information. 

JC -- I doubt golf ratings meet the independence criterion.  I also think the final outcome should include all votes, all outliers. 

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2011, 01:41:30 AM »
David, how well do public odds predict the horse races?  i.e. I get that they do a better job than most other systems.  How good is that, though?  btw, I suspect the best way to predict the races is with inside information. 

Historically in horse racing the favorite wins between 30-35% of the time.  It goes up or down depending on if the race is a maiden, handicap, stakes, etc.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2011, 07:40:15 AM »
David, how well do public odds predict the horse races?  i.e. I get that they do a better job than most other systems.  How good is that, though?  btw, I suspect the best way to predict the races is with inside information. 

JC -- I doubt golf ratings meet the independence criterion.  I also think the final outcome should include all votes, all outliers. 

Jim,

It's not good enough to make money, 1/1 horses would need to win more than 50% of the time, and they don't.

The best way to plat the races, IMHO, is to become a specialist, much like some investors.  Become an expert in a type of race at a certrain circuit, wait for the public to mis-price the race, and invest accordingly.  The hardest part though is you have to be prepared for losing streaks, especially if the mis-priced horses aren't likely to win, but the crowd thinks they are really not likely to win.

The other area is on the opaque pools, like the superfecta and the Pick-6.  On the super, my hypothesis is that the public overbets favorites to show, place 4th, and underbets longshots.  The odds work both across horses and finish position.   There are 100% to divvie up among the horses for first, but a horse has only 100% to divvie up on finish positions.  If he has 50 % chance to win, he can't have a 50% chancemto place 2, 3, and 4.

Unfortunately, I don't have the chops to figure out the model for this....
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 08:28:49 AM »
2 problems:

1.  In horse racing, it's simply win, place or show.  In golf rankings it's a question of what are the "right" criteria for determining win, place or show.

2.  In betting the crowd has a direct financial stake in the outcome.  they're not concerned with pleasing each other, simply with picking a winner and getting the best risk-adjusted return on their investment.  In golf rankings, what are the economic incentives?  1.  Sell magazines and magazine advertisement.  2. for some raters:  gain access to exclusive clubs they may not otherwise be able to and not rock the boat too much in terms of iconoclastic opinion which might lead them to be removed from the rater rolls.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 09:51:57 AM »
2 problems:

1.  In horse racing, it's simply win, place or show.  In golf rankings it's a question of what are the "right" criteria for determining win, place or show.

2.  In betting the crowd has a direct financial stake in the outcome.  they're not concerned with pleasing each other, simply with picking a winner and getting the best risk-adjusted return on their investment.  In golf rankings, what are the economic incentives?  1.  Sell magazines and magazine advertisement.  2. for some raters:  gain access to exclusive clubs they may not otherwise be able to and not rock the boat too much in terms of iconoclastic opinion which might lead them to be removed from the rater rolls.

I agree 100% re golf rankings.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 10:22:01 AM »
Horse Racing is fact while golf course quality cannot be.

Isn't the real value the outlier that's able to provide true insight? The Confidential Guide as an example! Wouldn't we all pay to read about the top 100, or 50 or 20 courses of a single well traveled, highly opinionated person? I would buy that every month instead of the "averaged out list" once a year...

The Wisdom of the Crowds gives us pretty mundane golf course lists and horse racing information we can't make any money with. I want a long shot that's likely to win...

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2011, 01:37:16 PM »
"I want a long shot that's likely to win".

Damn straight, Jimmy, damn straight.

Give me Trevino's swing, Pavin's game, Moby Dick, Herbert Fowler, lanky brunettes with wicked jaws, an inside straight, a perfectly struck 4 iron.

Peter

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2011, 02:27:40 PM »
PP,

Your last comma left me wanting for more.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2011, 04:22:37 PM »
PP,

Your last comma left me wanting for more.

Not sure what to make of this post when taken out of context Carl...not that there's anything wrong with that...

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2011, 05:27:19 PM »
This thread should be required reading for all club boards and greens committees.  Very, very good.

Do you mean the point about whether it's Fran or Fawn Libowitz, or, as I would now argue, Faun Libowitz?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 05:29:04 PM by Carl Johnson »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2011, 05:34:04 PM »
PP,

Your last comma left me wanting for more.

Not sure what to make of this post when taken out of context Carl...not that there's anything wrong with that...

He just ended the whole thing after his last comma; I kept searching for the word "and" but it wasn't there.  I assumed it was because he wasn't finished.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2011, 07:30:52 PM »
Outliers use commas differently. That's why they're outliers. Please discount what I've just said.
Peter

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2011, 08:25:42 PM »
The Crowd is either wise or dumb. But, rarely shows wisdom.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2011, 08:33:38 PM »
It was FAWN Leibowitz who died in the kiln explosion.

And Daniel Simpson Day has no grade point average!

Oh my my my....my mistake ;D

Why are you so smart ?  were you there the day the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?


"Don't stop him, he's on a roll."

Jim Nugent

Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2011, 03:58:05 AM »
I was going to ask for evidence that crowds really are wise.  But there is one example where I believe it wholeheartedly.  In free market economies.  It's one reason I favor them.  I don't think anyone or any group is smart enough to manage resources, whether of a community, city, state or nation.   

Interesting topic JC.   

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2011, 06:48:06 AM »
I was going to ask for evidence that crowds really are wise.  But there is one example where I believe it wholeheartedly.  In free market economies.  It's one reason I favor them.  I don't think anyone or any group is smart enough to manage resources, whether of a community, city, state or nation.   

Interesting topic JC.   

Jim, that's a great point, and this concept does seem to point to factors which make some markets not as free.

Jim S, if you want to find quality outliers, maybe we need different tools.  These top 100 lists were designed to sell magazines.  Last I checked we now have online tools supported by databases and code that allow people to organize and deliver information in far more dynamic and complex ways than numbered lists.

There's no reason there couldn't be "if you likes this course try this course" recommendation tools, with the recommendations either crowd sourced (the golflink site) or expert sourced, a la Pandora, or some other way appropriate to the problem at hand?

The Pandora internet radio model has trained staff categorize songs based on some expert musicological taxonomy. Then, you build a personalized radio station by seeding the station with some songs you like, and the Pandora streaming service beams you songs that share similarities in the songs you seeded.

Why couldn't something similar be done with golf courses? 
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2011, 08:42:09 AM »
David,

Interesting point, but is that overkill for golf courses?  In music it makes sense as there's thousands of artists most have never heard of.  How many different GCA's are there in the top 200 globally?  Furthermore how many "types" of course preferences are there, 3? (Mike Nuzzo example).  I think all but the most novice readers of the top 100 lists can make these types of inferences themselves with a bit of effort...or they can lurk here...  Hell, we can do 3 lists here and be done with it.....  8)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 08:48:31 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2011, 10:01:34 AM »
These top 100 lists were designed to sell magazines.   


David:

This is often said, but it's not really true.

The magazines publish these lists to sell magazines, and also to get free publicity for their magazines.  [i.e., "3rd Best New Public Course" -- GOLF DIGEST.]  But nobody designed the rating system for any specific magazine purpose.  I designed the system that GOLF Magazine uses, although they've tweaked it since I left; I assume Brad Klein designed the GOLFWEEK system; the late Bill Davis accidentally designed GOLF DIGEST's years before the fact, by writing an article which emphasized certain characteristics of great courses.

None of the three of us are anything like a statistics geek, so the formulas are not complicated.  Heck, I never even had a class in statistics.  It would be fascinating to see what you guys could do with "similarity scores", but the #1 thing I think you'd find is that for most architects in the recent era, the most similar courses are all of their other courses!

Jim Colton

Re: The Wisdom of the Crowds - Golf Rankings
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2011, 12:44:04 PM »
Jim, that's a great point, and this concept does seem to point to factors which make some markets not as free.

Why couldn't something similar be done with golf courses? 

David,

I did something along those lines on the recent Golf Digest rankings.

http://www.wegoblogger31.com/2011/05/breaking-down-golf-digest-rankings-part.html

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