Resolved: The PGA's stewardship of golf's 4th major ensures its eventual death as a major

[Mark Bourgeois]

I. Going to places at the wrong time of the year, courses that fail as television studios (let's face it, there's golf and there's professional golf, and the two are in no way the same), and a money grab that enables broadcasters to pour on more ads than an AM radio station.

The PGA is down to hard-core golf fans, eg architecture discussion board participants. A guess: even when Tiger has been in contention / leading at the PGA, television ratings have not matched when he's been in contention / leading at the Masters or US Open.

II. The door now is open to a non-US tournament if the organizer can pony up the money and a rota of high-quality television studios (courses). Talking 10-20yr time frame here.

Discuss.

[Ben Stephens]

Mark,

They have played the PGA in the South more than the US Open. Anyway I thought the 'one-dimensional' Atlanta Athletic Club was more of a challenge and sloping greens that were major championship standard compared with the 'easier' Congressional with its flat tiered greens.

Looking at the future venues - there is an interesting variety between old and new courses - looking forward to see Kiawah in major set up. My general feeling is that the PGA is like the old US Open set up where accuracy is a premium and putting is vital.

2012 Kiawah Island Golf Resort, The Ocean Course

2013 Oak Hill Country Club, East Course

2014 Valhalla Golf Club

2015 Whistling Straits, Straits Course

2016 Baltusrol Golf Club, Lower Course

2017 Quail Hollow Club

2018 Bellerive Country Club

The fans need to stop shouting 'IN THE HOLE!' which is daft and replace it with 'GOOD SHOT!!'

We had fewer ads in the UK they replaced some US ads with studio commentary with Butch Harmon and Monty which gives it more variety to the coverage. Generally as a tourist to the US there are too many adverts on US TV! It is an American obsession with ads whether it is popularity or a revenue generator for the TV studios and PGA.

I think in the future it is more likely that there may be a 5th major probably in the May bracket. (Not the Players) rather than the PGA being replaced.

Cheers
Ben

[Mike Sweeney]

The Open Championship

2011 Darren Clarke (Britain)
2010 Louis Oosthuizen (South Africa)
2009 Stewart Cink
2008 Padraig Harrington (Ireland)
2007 Harrington
2006 Tiger Woods
2005 Woods
2004 Todd Hamilton
2003 Ben Curtis

PGA

2011 - Keegan Bradley
2010 - Martin Kaymer
2009 - Y.E. Yang
2008 - Padraig Harrington
2007 - Tiger Woods
2006 - Tiger Woods
2005 - Phil Mickelson
2004 - Vijay Singh
2003 - Shaun Micheel

Who says the PGA is the 4th Major? Same sort of winners list as The Open which is typically on ugly brown courses that fail for the AVERAGE FAN as "television studios".

The finish at the PGA has been compelling a number of times in recent years. I am not a network television producer or investor, get TIVO and fast forward!

Let's move the British Open to Fishers Island so we get it in the right time zone!!

Oh and one of my favorite trips of all times is a trip to Ireland during PGA week. Play golf all day on links courses and watch green course back home during a late dinner. Perfection!

[PCCraig]

The PGA has a great history and is usually played on an interesting course. Some of the best finishes in the Majors in recent years have been at the PGA: Woods vs. May in 2000, the 3 man playoff at WS in 2004, Woods and YE Yang at Hazeltine in 2009, Dustin Johnson and the bunker in 2010, this years awesome comeback. I'm sure I'm missing a couple.

[Tom Kelly]

I agree the television coverage was terrible. I watched the American coverage over the internet (I'm from the UK) and it was rubbish. adverts every few minutes, every time the same ones and they only seemed to show putts with the odd tee shot. It turned what could have been a very interesting final day into boredom. The commentators tried their hardest and weren't bad but I turned off after a few hours as it was so dull.

The point on the course making a boring television studio I agree with too. The Open courses may look like "ugly brown courses" but that is surely what makes it more interesting for the "average viewer" as it is completely different to what they see every week on the PGA tour? Augusta, Open venues and some US Open courses are very different and really appear something special, I can't wait to see Pinehurst No. 2 for instance. To me the PGA this week looked like any another US tour event nothing special at all (Congressional was as bad). Yes it was hard and made for an interesting finish, but personally I would prefer to see birdies and eagles than pros trying to play safe and still knocking it in the water. It made me think of what has happened to 18 at Wentworth but not quite as bad, in trying to make a spectacle they made watching paint dry seem fun.

I would love to see a major played out in Australia or Asia but realistically I can't see it happening. Even if the money is there it would take decades for the event to get the prestige and history needed for it to be considered a major.

The Melbourne sandbelt courses and NSW among others would certainly make great "television studios".

[John Kavanaugh]

Funny thing is, or sad, is that in 10 or 20 years there will be less than 1000 PGA club pros left in the country.  Mike Small, the most excellent low "club pro" is the head coach of University of Illinois mens golf.  There will soon not be enough dues paying members of the PGA for it to survive.

Back when I was a kid the US Am was considered a major.  It's up to Brandel Chamblee or one of his ilk to tell us what is major or not.  I mean really, who can't wait for B.C. to be a doddering old fool waxing poetic about the spirit of the game while sitting in front of a green screen so his comb over doesn't shift.  I like Brandel but if him and Kelly merge any closer into a monosexual being golf commentary will soon be animated just to make it believable.

[Jeff_Brauer]

People have been trying to bury the PGA for years, starting with the TPC.

It may happen, but I think the ties to club pros will probably keep it a major, and someone with the lineage of Keegan Bradley will make it more important to golf, not less.

Not sure about JK's comments about 1000 total pros.  If that happens, then we will call it the Club Managers Championship, because management companies and club managers will have killed off the pros, not bad dates and TV coverage.

BTW, I do love the ILLINI connection.

Just MHO.

[David Whitmer]

I don't see any way the PGA loses its major status. It's been around a long time, and it's been a major for a long time. It always gets the best field of the year, and the purse is huge. It goes to (usually) very interesting golf courses. And, disagreeing with your thread's title, I think the PGA does a great job putting the tournament on...I wish the USGA did as good a job with course setup.

I am a huge fan of golf course architecture...that's why I am on this site. But when it comes to me watching golf (and majors) on television, the course's architecture is not the most important aspect to me. Yesterday was outstanding...great drama, a very challenging golf course, and players trying to win a major championship. The fact that it was played at Atlanta Athletic Club, and not Fishers Island, Shinnecock, or Sand Hills, did not detract from my enjoyment in the least. I doubt it detracted from 99.99% of the viewers' enjoyment either. There's simply no way this event will eventually die as a major, in my opinion.

[Kevin Pallier]

I reckon the US PGA is like the US Open - without the roids.

Call it the PGA Tour trophy and take it round the world - would hold much more interest IMO.

[John Kavanaugh]

Not sure about JK's comments about 1000 total pros.  If that happens, then we will call it the Club Managers Championship, because management companies and club managers will have killed off the pros, not bad dates and TV coverage.

The Superintendents are also killing off the club pros as the search for budget dollars is a fight for your own job.  Pros are killing themselves by allowing the supers full run of the course on when and how members are allowed to play.  I don't even know on a weekend morning why the pro is behind the counter when it is the super running the show.  Like most old men, I miss the old days when the pro was the master of his domain.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Supers, management companies.  I agree.  The only sad part is that someone has to teach the next generation the game.  Those people may be located at Top Golf, driving ranges and golf super stores.  There isn't much actual need for them at many munis, at least the way they are run now.  Its all about the cost efficiencies and not so much about stocking those golf sweaters.  Some adapt, others don't.

It is a bit hard to envison that kind of future, but change is constant.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

They have played the PGA in the South more than the US Open. Anyway I thought the 'one-dimensional' Atlanta Athletic Club was more of a challenge and sloping greens that were major championship standard compared with the 'easier' Congressional with its flat tiered greens.

Looking at the future venues - there is an interesting variety between old and new courses - looking forward to see Kiawah in major set up. My general feeling is that the PGA is like the old US Open set up where accuracy is a premium and putting is vital.

2012 Kiawah Island Golf Resort, The Ocean Course

2013 Oak Hill Country Club, East Course

2014 Valhalla Golf Club

2015 Whistling Straits, Straits Course

2016 Baltusrol Golf Club, Lower Course

2017 Quail Hollow Club

2018 Bellerive Country Club

The fans need to stop shouting 'IN THE HOLE!' which is daft and replace it with 'GOOD SHOT!!'

We had fewer ads in the UK they replaced some US ads with studio commentary with Butch Harmon and Monty which gives it more variety to the coverage. Generally as a tourist to the US there are too many adverts on US TV! It is an American obsession with ads whether it is popularity or a revenue generator for the TV studios and PGA.

I think in the future it is more likely that there may be a 5th major probably in the May bracket. (Not the Players) rather than the PGA being replaced.

Cheers
Ben

Ben,

Future U.S. Open Sites

2012 Olympic
2013 Merion
2014 Pinehurst #2
2015 Chambers Bay
2016 Oakmont
2017 Erin Hills
2018 Shinnecock
2019 Pebble

There's no comparison.  If they weren't so keen (rightly) to bring public venues into the mix the list would arguably be even more impressive.  I know I'm whistling in the dark, but going back to MATCH PLAY is what can distinguish this tournament from being the redheaded stepchild...

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Supers, management companies.  I agree.  The only sad part is that someone has to teach the next generation the game.  Those people may be located at Top Golf, driving ranges and golf super stores.  There isn't much actual need for them at many munis, at least the way they are run now.  Its all about the cost efficiencies and not so much about stocking those golf sweaters.  Some adapt, others don't.

It is a bit hard to envison that kind of future, but change is constant.

Fuzzy, a childhood hero of mine, started it all by hawking clubs for KMart.  When I learned the game you took lessons from your pro and played the clubs he represented.  I was a Wilson guy of course.  Now I am a Scratch Golf guy, I doubt if they have a single PGA dues paying member on staff.

[John Kavanaugh]

The demise of the PGA is not a threadjack.  The next phase will be some kind of world order union that makes the PGA obsolete.  As purses dwindle and golfers become even more boring there will need to be a pay structure similar to other sports to nurture future stars while established has beens rake in the profits of their celebrity.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jud,

The match play thing has been debated for years, too. Given a period with 13 different major winners, and Tiger out of the mix, seemingly, it might be time to dust off that argument, because the old argument was that you might be focusing on the Bradley Keegans of the world on Sunday.....but that is happening anyway.

[Jud_T]

How many guys here take lesson regularly from their club pro?  A lot of kids today seek out the best available teaching pro and unless he happens to work at their home club they (and their parent's dollars) will go wherever the pro is, regardless of affiliation.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jud,

Our home club pro even recommended my son go to a better known teacher in Dallas.  Of course, we have a few here, but even for the AJGA and college, its a star system and a kid who learns under a Randy Smith or Hank Haney (or his associates) is in better position to get a scholarship than one tutled by his home pro.

For that matter, how many courses simply lease out their teaching postions, rather than keep one on staff full time?  It could end up being like the traveling preachers or circuit court judges in a decade or two.

[jeffwarne]

I. Going to places at the wrong time of the year, courses that fail as television studios (let's face it, there's golf and there's professional golf, and the two are in no way the same), and a money grab that enables broadcasters to pour on more ads than an AM radio station.

The PGA is down to hard-core golf fans, eg architecture discussion board participants. A guess: even when Tiger has been in contention / leading at the PGA, television ratings have not matched when he's been in contention / leading at the Masters or US Open.

II. The door now is open to a non-US tournament if the organizer can pony up the money and a rota of high-quality television studios (courses). Talking 10-20yr time frame here.

Discuss.

So I am in the minority in thinking it was the second best major of the year?

masters-awesome
US Open-snoozefest on a wet, soft slog (awesome single performanance)
Open (great story-great course) usually my favorite major,snooze finish
PGA -for august somehwhat firm, balls roll into bunkers, rough rarely the primay hazard  awesome finish
 are we so one dimensional we need Tiger or Bones (err Mickelson) to watch golf?
because several of the top 5 were in the hunt and the golf was exciting and great,

TPC will never replace PGA-(AAC without the hills)

Europe can't even put a Ryder Cup on a respectable course, what makes you think they can attract a 5th major due to quality of course?
Asia? whatever
Australia-best chance based on zero odds of other continents but the time difference would kill

As far as John's cryptic commentary,anyone ever played in a club manager's outing?
there will ALWAYS be a need for Club Pros......

[Bill_McBride]

I'm with Jeff Warne, that was riveting stuff yesterday. 

I went out fir the afternoon with the DVR recording the action so I could FF through the heinous commercials.  However, my plan was thwarted when the DVR ran out of time as the playoff started.    .  The dogs covered their ears when I expressed my disbelief.   

[George Pazin]

I'm with Jeff Warne, that was riveting stuff yesterday. 

I went out fir the afternoon with the DVR recording the action so I could FF through the heinous commercials.  However, my plan was thwarted when the DVR ran out of time as the playoff started.    .  The dogs covered their ears when I expressed my disbelief.   

Next time DVR 60 minutes as well, that should cover you.

[Tim Pitner]

The PGA has had an identity problem ever since I can remember (probably since it went away from match play).  It's sort of a U.S. Open-lite and not terribly different from a regular U.S. PGA Tour event.  You might as well call the European PGA event they play at Wentworth a major--the PGA Championship isn't much different (albeit it has a better field because it's designated as a major). 

For many years, my friends and I would participate in a betting game (a draft) for the majors.  Often we'd skip the PGA because no one was that interested.  It just doesn't feel on the same level as the other majors.  (I'm sure Keegan Bradley doesn't agree).  Another interesting note is that, for several years, we had to develop special rules regarding the drafting of Tiger.  Sometimes we'd make him ineligible; other times, we had a rule that if you drafted Tiger, you could have no other player.  That's how much he dominated the majors, which is really astounding.  How times have changed. 

I'd like to see the Australian Open elevated to major status, in lieu of the PGA, for at least three reasons:  (1) there are several quality courses that could host it; (2) it would offer a distinctive form of golf, distinguishing it from the Masters, U.S. Open and Open Championship; and (3) it would make the majors less U.S.-centric.  A long shot, I know, but it makes a lot of sense from a sporting perspective. 

[David Cronheim]

Mark,

They have played the PGA in the South more than the US Open. Anyway I thought the 'one-dimensional' Atlanta Athletic Club was more of a challenge and sloping greens that were major championship standard compared with the 'easier' Congressional with its flat tiered greens.

Looking at the future venues - there is an interesting variety between old and new courses - looking forward to see Kiawah in major set up. My general feeling is that the PGA is like the old US Open set up where accuracy is a premium and putting is vital.

2012 Kiawah Island Golf Resort, The Ocean Course

2013 Oak Hill Country Club, East Course

2014 Valhalla Golf Club

2015 Whistling Straits, Straits Course

2016 Baltusrol Golf Club, Lower Course

2017 Quail Hollow Club

2018 Bellerive Country Club

The fans need to stop shouting 'IN THE HOLE!' which is daft and replace it with 'GOOD SHOT!!'

We had fewer ads in the UK they replaced some US ads with studio commentary with Butch Harmon and Monty which gives it more variety to the coverage. Generally as a tourist to the US there are too many adverts on US TV! It is an American obsession with ads whether it is popularity or a revenue generator for the TV studios and PGA.

I think in the future it is more likely that there may be a 5th major probably in the May bracket. (Not the Players) rather than the PGA being replaced.

Cheers
Ben

Ben,

Future U.S. Open Sites

2012 Olympic
2013 Merion
2014 Pinehurst #2
2015 Chambers Bay
2016 Oakmont
2017 Erin Hills
2018 Shinnecock
2019 Pebble

There's no comparison.  If they weren't so keen (rightly) to bring public venues into the mix the list would arguably be even more impressive.  I know I'm whistling in the dark, but going back to MATCH PLAY is what can distinguish this tournament from being the redheaded stepchild...

Agreed - I know there's no chance of it happening, but going back to Match Play would make this event so much more interesting. Sadly that idea is DOA because match play events are slow to develop and don't make great TV...

[Brent Hutto]

If the Sunday coverage had been an 18-hole match between "Mr. Excitement" Jason Dufner and "Mr. Long Putter" Keegan Bradley do you really think that would have been more interesting than what we saw?

[John Kavanaugh]

The PGA has had an identity problem ever since I can remember (probably since it went away from match play).  It's sort of a U.S. Open-lite and not terribly different from a regular U.S. PGA Tour event.  You might as well call the European PGA event they play at Wentworth a major--the PGA Championship isn't much different (albeit it has a better field because it's designated as a major).  

For many years, my friends and I would participate in a betting game (a draft) for the majors.  Often we'd skip the PGA because no one was that interested.  It just doesn't feel on the same level as the other majors.  (I'm sure Keegan Bradley doesn't agree).  Another interesting note is that, for several years, we had to develop special rules regarding the drafting of Tiger.  Sometimes we'd make him ineligible; other times, we had a rule that if you drafted Tiger, you could have no other player.  That's how much he dominated the majors, which is really astounding.  How times have changed.  

I'd like to see the Australian Open elevated to major status, in lieu of the PGA, for at least three reasons:  (1) there are several quality courses that could host it; (2) it would offer a distinctive form of golf, distinguishing it from the Masters, U.S. Open and Open Championship; and (3) it would make the majors less U.S.-centric.  A long shot, I know, but it makes a lot of sense from a sporting perspective.  

Here is a thread from 2004 calling for the Australian Masters to be the 4th major.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,14483.0.html

[David Cronheim]

If the Sunday coverage had been an 18-hole match between "Mr. Excitement" Jason Dufner and "Mr. Long Putter" Keegan Bradley do you really think that would have been more interesting than what we saw?

Frankly, I couldn't stand to watch him waggle much more. It wasn't quite as bad as Sergio c. 2002 at Bethpage because it didn't get worse as the pressure mounted, but it still wasn't a lot of fun to watch...