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Joe Bausch

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18 at AAC (now includes CBS frame grabs of Sunday play)
« on: August 12, 2011, 06:56:48 PM »
What is so hard about this hole?





As a par 6?

 ;)

« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 02:50:53 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
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Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sam Morrow

Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 06:59:43 PM »
Jerry Pate thinks the naysayers are pussies.

Chris Cupit

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 08:32:44 PM »
One of the most difficult aspects I feel is the drive.  You really cannot see at all where you need to go.  The lake is completely invisible from the tee (I played the 517 tee as a par 4).  There may be some tees where you can see a hazard stake or a tiny glimpse but the drive aims you over a hill.  Even the right bunkers are tricky as you really just see humps and mounding along the right side.  The landing zone is completely blind.

I actually like blind holes but I am not sure it works here.

The second shot is just a long, difficult shot to a relatively shallow green.  Obviously I am nowhere near a world class player but it is almost impossible.  I played about 3-4 weeks ago and hit an excellent drive and a hybrid that carried onto the green and just barely crept into the back bunker.  As a par four (which it isn't for member play) it is doable for about .001% of golfers.

The fountain is as ugky to me as the clubhouse is pretty.  And I hate that stupid white crepe myrtle!!  Actually, my biggest complaint may be the excessive flowering trees on the course.  It is almost too "perfect".

The course is just a brutal, tough, bastard.  I think most members prefer Riverside and I can understand that.

The tournament has been great.  The set up and logistics have run flawlessly, the traffic and parking have been terrific beyond beleif and I have yet to run into any staff or volunteer who didn't seem extremely gracious and happy to help.  The membership at AAC has helped host a great event and the city of Johns Creek has done a great job as well.

All the heartache over the course ignores the fact that staging an event like this can no longer be about bringing championships to architecturally great spots--it's a huge undertaking and logistics and space are the over riding concern--not the course per se.  Get over it! :) 

Mac Plumart

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 08:44:26 PM »
True that, Chris.  True that.  Great time out there.  Wonderful set up.  And a ball-buster of a golf course, which is what a major should be all about...right?

And yes, 18, is a fair par 6.  In fact, the last time I played out there our match came down to how we played 18.  I won the hole and the match with a bogey 6 on the hole.  Tough course.  Tough hole.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Chris Cupit

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 08:58:55 PM »
Well, as a par 6, I made birdie :)

Mac Plumart

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 09:00:59 PM »
See...very "fair"   ;)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kirk

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 12:50:54 AM »
It looks like the 18th at TPC Sawgrass, except the last seventy yards of fairway have been replaced with a lake.

Sam Morrow

Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 12:51:38 AM »
It looks like the 18th at TPC Sawgrass, except the last seventy yards of fairway have been replaced with a lake.

Which looks like half the closing holes on tour.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 07:31:24 AM »
To me it's like sushi.  I know some folks love it, but I can't, for the life of me, figure out why.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 12:46:00 PM »
Well said Chris.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2011, 02:05:14 PM »
Two comments:

As long as it still plays as a par 5 for the members, no problem.

The first two fw bunkers are a total waste.  If anyone lays up that short, they should have an open fw.  They can't possible reach the green in two shots, so no hazards are required, and distance alone is the hazard.

A bit more fw would make it play easier for the short hitters without affecting anyone.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Martin

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2011, 04:00:47 PM »
Phil Mickelson just hit iron on this hole which is set up today at 485. Iron? He just 3 jacked to go 4 over on 18 for the week. Is there a tougher finisher in major golf?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 04:14:24 PM by Tim Martin »

Matthew Rose

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2011, 04:20:10 PM »
I've been watching the coverage for an hour and a half, and I don't think I've seen anybody par it yet.

What's the scoring average, like 4.7?
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Will MacEwen

Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2011, 04:30:04 PM »
Is anyone hitting driver on this hole?

Mac Plumart

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2011, 06:10:28 PM »
I've been watching the coverage for an hour and a half, and I don't think I've seen anybody par it yet.

What's the scoring average, like 4.7?

Matthew...

As this mornings pairings sheet, 4.634
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

rjsimper

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2011, 06:37:27 PM »
Think the scoring average would be different if it was a par 5?

Ken Moum

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2011, 07:02:11 PM »
If they called it a par five, it would be beloved by the pros.... because they could lay up, make four and not feel like pussies.  As Paul Goydos said on the Grey Goose 19th hole, "...want to make a golf course hard, make us make decisions, because we're LOUSY at it."

If the field is averaging almost 5 shots, then laying up cannot be a bad play.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mac Plumart

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2011, 07:22:12 PM »
This is a prime example of the fact that par DOES matter a great deal.  It messes with your head/ego.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Matthew Rose

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2011, 10:39:49 PM »
In the end I did see some pars.... most of them were guys who got up and down! (Stricker).

I think I saw more pars after layups than I did from guys who went for it.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Sam Morrow

Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2011, 10:40:49 PM »
The hole seems perfect for this site, it's a good half par hole.

Ken Moum

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2011, 11:13:53 PM »
The hole seems perfect for this site, it's a good half par hole.

That was sort of my point.  If it was listed as a five, it would be getting praise from some people (although perhaps not here).

Most of the holes I play are half pars, but they're half a stroke over par.  I survive with my dignity intact for the most part, so I find it hard to work up much empathy for a tour pro being asked to hit a long iron into a target he has almost no chance of holding.

I am once again reminded of the Payne Stewart with Mike Davis (??). Payne was going off about it being unfair to shorten a par five, because the green wasn't designed to accept a long iron shot.  Davis said he'd be happy to put it back a few yards and call it a par five on one condition....

Stewart had to get everyone in the field to promise that they wouldn't try to knock it on in two.

Payne got the point, and never bitched about it again. 

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Matt Kardash

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2011, 12:05:11 AM »
I think what makes the whole bad is there is really nowhere to miss it on ANY shot. The drive is partly blind with a hidden lake left, a narrow fairway, and bunkers right. Then the next shot is played from 190 to 230 yards with water short and right, and bunker long and left.

Someone brought up the 18th at TPC Sawgrass. The only thing these holes have in common is having water left, because besides that the TPC is an infinitely more forgiving hole. At TPC you SEE the water, the fairway is much waider AND you can bail out to the right of the fairway. Then when you hit to the green you can miss your shot short or right and have a chance at par.

I think the 18th at AAC is the most brutal par 4 I have ever seen. And this is not a SMART hard hole. To me there are two types of hard holes: The first kind is a hole that is hard because the designer is making you think and outsmarting you. The second is a hole that is hard where you just throw in hazards everywhere and take all fun out of the hole.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

BCrosby

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2011, 08:10:10 AM »
This is a prime example of the fact that par DOES matter a great deal.  It messes with your head/ego.

Exactly so. Par sets scoring expectations. Those expectations take on added force when competing against a field of similarly skilled players, as is the case this week at the AAC.

A way to test of the 'par matters' thesis: Would the scoring average on the 18th at AAC actually be lower if it was a par 5 on the card? Even if played from the same tees? Which is another way of asking if the hole were a par 5, would players make (on the margin) smarter playing choices - i.e. be more likely to lay up - than they do when it is played as a par 4? 

I'd take that bet. Playing the hole as a par 5 would result in a lower scoring average. If that were to turn out to be the case, it's Q.E.D. for the 'par matters' camp.
 

Bob

jeffwarne

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Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2011, 08:21:40 AM »
I think what makes the whole bad is there is really nowhere to miss it on ANY shot. The drive is partly blind with a hidden lake left, a narrow fairway, and bunkers right. Then the next shot is played from 190 to 230 yards with water short and right, and bunker long and left.

Someone brought up the 18th at TPC Sawgrass. The only thing these holes have in common is having water left, because besides that the TPC is an infinitely more forgiving hole. At TPC you SEE the water, the fairway is much waider AND you can bail out to the right of the fairway. Then when you hit to the green you can miss your shot short or right and have a chance at par.

I think the 18th at AAC is the most brutal par 4 I have ever seen. And this is not a SMART hard hole. To me there are two types of hard holes: The first kind is a hole that is hard because the designer is making you think and outsmarting you. The second is a hole that is hard where you just throw in hazards everywhere and take all fun out of the hole.

There doesn't appear to be that much wrong with 18, other than playing it from the ladies tees.


Same with that other stupid hole set up at 272 over the trees.
The current fad of driveable par 4's can lead to such nonsense.
Funny how a stupid hole like that can be praised ,but a 260 par 3 be criticized

hard to blame stupid set ups on the architect.

The par 3's do  remind me of medinah
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 08:23:17 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Carl Rogers

Re: 18 at AAC
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2011, 02:09:31 PM »
If the 18th was a par 5, fifty yards longer, no fw bunkering and a shorter carry across the pond / stream (maintaing water that close to green), that wouls create some lay up options. If some one is able to separete themselves from the field, the finish will be an ad for sleeping pills.  Wonder what will happen this evening ...

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