Is Tom Weiskopf's work underappreciated?

[Dan Herrmann]

We all tend to love the work of Doak/C&C/Hanse, etc..  But you seldom see mentions of Tom Weiskopf. 

Granted, I've never seen his work, but what I've seen in photographs looks good. 

Can anybody more familiar with his work share their experience and opinion?

Thanks

[JC Jones]

Forest Dunes is really good.  It requires several different shots, has large undulating greens and has great pacing and routing in and out of the forest and the sand dunes.

I've not seen his work with Moorish but FD is worthy of it's ranking and a visit.

[Michael George]

Agree with JC on Forest Dunes.  It is the best Weiskopf by far that I have played and worth a trip. 

However, I have been disappointed with his other courses.  Double Eagle is solid but not great.  It is not top 10 in State of Ohio, let alone top 100 in the US.   In Ohio, I think Muirfield Village, Camargo and The Golf Club are clearly the best 3 in the state.  After those courses, there is Country Club (PP), Kirtland, Inverness, Scioto, Firestone South, Sand Ridge and Longaberger, which are all in the same category and finish out the top 10. 

I find that Weiskopf courses often have gimmicks that sometimes don't work.  He seems infatuated with middle fairway bunkers and overrated short par 4s (I love good short par 4s like #14 at Muirfield but his are not enough risk/reward).  Also, even at Forest Dunes, I have never been overly impressed with his green complexes.

Even in golf design, I think he trails Jack, not to mention Doak, Coore, Dye, etc..

[Chris Johnston]

Snake River Sporting Club (Canyon Course) was spectacular.  Sadly, it collapsed under a massive debt loan and has been closed for 3 years.

[Peter Ferlicca]

I worked as an assistant pro at Adams Mountain Country Club one summer in Eagle, Colorado.  It is located in Vail Valley.  The course was built on a pretty darn good piece of property, very walkable to say the least.  Weiskopf built a very boring front nine that is unwalkable, with a lot of bland golf holes.  The back nine is down by a creek, it has more inspiring golf holes, but once again didn't take advantage of any of the natural features.  He built three golf holes by the creek, but didn't open up any of the views, or even have the creek come into play.  I always felt the course could have been a lot more than it was.  It might have been an explanation why they only had 3 members the first couple of years. 

Another course of his is The Weiskopf Course at PGA West.  Any person that has played this course will admit it is one of the most boring golf courses you will ever play.  You could literally fall asleep on the golf course. 

He builds big bold bunkers, big greens with settle ridges, a lot of short par 4's, always see a bunker in the middle of the green on some of his courses.  I find that people that like Palmer courses usually appreciate Weiskopf courses also.

[Andy Troeger]

I think Weiskopf's work, both with and without Morrish, is a mixed bag. Some of it is very good, including Forest Highlands Canyon with Morrish. The greens there set it apart from his other work in its complexity. He's done a lot of work in the mountains which tends to lead to great scenery, but as with Peter's comments about Adam's Mountain the claim could be made that much of the design work is a bit bland. The Rim is still pretty good, but its a beautiful site and I was grateful for giving it some width when compared to other courses in the area. Seven Canyons is beautiful but the views are the main attraction. I probably give Adam's Mountain more credit than Peter, but again its set in a beautiful valley. The back nine has a handful of good holes including the driveable 13th and the risk/reward 14th par five. Grandote Peaks is almost an unknown in southern Colorado, but really quite good. I wasn't especially impressed with Troon North the one time I saw it.

Double Eagle tends to make all of the top 100 lists, but I have to admit I don't especially see why. There's one really good stretch of golf from #5-9, but the rest of it's a little bland to keep that kind of company.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm still waiting/wondering if Toms latest effort at Black Rock will be opened?

The course is in the ground....drove by it a few weeks ago.  Perhaps its still in grow in, but will be interesting to see what becomes of it.

[Sean Leary]

Kalen,

The second course at BR isn't owned by BR anymore. Been at its current state for a while.

[Adam Lawrence]

Loch Lomond is a very good golf course on a beautiful, though unsuitable for drainage reasons, piece of property. I like it a lot, though it is wildly overrated in the UK (top100golfcourses,, for example, has it as the seventh best in Scotland, 13th in the UK and 31st in the world, which is farcical). In many ways it should never have been built; the site is too wet and too low-lying to be a sensible place for a golf course. The frankly insane amount of drainage that was retrofitted to the course in the early 2000s IMO proves the point.

For all that, though, it is a fine course. The fourteenth gets all the attention, but the ninth is another terrific short par four. The two downhill holes early in the back nine, ten and thirteen, are both good, and I like the long uphill par three eleventh.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

The second course at BR isn't owned by BR anymore. Been at its current state for a while.

Thanks Sean,

I wonder who owns it now?  Perhaps I could get out there and give it a look....maybe even a play if its doable!!

[Greg Tallman]

Tom's efort at our resort is a very good course.

Plenty of width, fair bit of quirk and some great green complexes. The course suffers given the popularity of our Ocean Course and the unfortunate naming and initial marketing (Lead statement in the marketing materials labeled it "an inland course" when it has panoramic ocean views from just about everywhere).  

Once we convince guests to give it a try they love it.

Contrary to a previou poster I have always thought Tom was very good with his short par 4's and the 4th hole at Cabo del Sol supports that opinion. Very good driveable 4 with plenty of risk in various forms. One can face a shot from the fairway no more than 30 yards off the green and be hardpressed to get in easy two-putt range on the approach.

Tom and his design associate, Phil Smith are entertaining to watch in the field... they make a good team. Phil had good training having worked with/under Jim Lipe for nearly a decade before teaming up with Tom who is very artistic in the manner he goes about designing.  

That said, he is likely a better story teller than designer. Have listened to him go on for an hour describing Ben Hogan hitting balls on the range. His Woody Hayes stories aren't bad either.  

Look forward to getting around to the changes we have had on the board for a few years now as we will borrow some land previously part of a Doak routying for our 3rd course to create new holes on The Desert Course. Should make an already excellent course better.

[Marty Bonnar]

We're soon going to have another opportunity to decide here in Scotland:

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/News/Fife/article/15857/feddinch-golf-course-project-signs-up-former-open-champion-tom-weiskopf-as-designer.html

Oh yes, St Andrews REALLY needs another golf course.

FBD.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The ultra high end Silverleaf in Scottsdale is a very good example of his work. It's one of the few courses around with only 3 par3s. Seven Canyons in Sedona, although in a magnicent setting in the Red Rocks, is not considered a great course but is worth a play because of its scenery. Hassayampa in Prescott is an excellent members course.

Someday I'll play his courses in Hawaii.

Was Double Eagle in Ohio with Moorrish?

He certainly gets around:

www.weiskopfdesigns.com

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

nope

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Beaten to the punch by Tiger.  My answer is also no.

[Dan Herrmann]

How about RTJ Jr.?

[Greg Tallman]

Tiger & Lynn,

Care to elaborate? Surely such harsh responses come with some specific views as to why?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Greg, It is not a harsh comment. I do not think his work is underappreciated. I think he generally get a fair shake or more than he deserves. His best work to me was with Morrish.

[Joel_Stewart]

Beaten to the punch by Tiger.  My answer is also no.

I'm a no also.

There should be 3 catagories for Weiskopf.

Weiskopf/Morrish
Weiskopf in his drinking days
Weiskopf in his sober days

Take a look at his web site and see a similar pattern of boring.
http://www.weiskopfdesigns.com/our-work.html

[David Kelly]

I've played a number of Weiskopf courses but I can't think of one that I really want to get back to again.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I haven't seen a lot or played a lot, but my sense is he weighs looks and appearance over strategy and fun.

[A.G._Crockett]

Maybe so.

I've played three of his courses; the two at Troon North, plus Seven Canyons.  Liked all three a lot, and loved the Pinnacle Course at Troon North.  This was before they reconfigured all of that, and I realize the the Monument course was and is the one that gets the highest rankings.

I must say that I think Seven Canyons gets shortchanged here.  It is almost as if the scenery is held against the course or something.  I don't think Seven Canyons is a Top 100 course by any stretch, but I thought it was a very solid course.  Combined with the scenery, which matches anything I've ever seen on or off a golf course, and it well worth the trip.

[Mark Pritchett]

I agree with the positive comments regarding Forest Dunes.  Oddly I do not see FD listed on the Weiskopf website. 

Harbor Club is a Weiskopf/Moorish design at Lake Oconee and has some good holes, it is probably on par or better than the Reynolds Courses. 

[Sean Leary]

Kalen,

The second course at BR isn't owned by BR anymore. Been at its current state for a while.

Thanks Sean,

I wonder who owns it now?  Perhaps I could get out there and give it a look....maybe even a play if its doable!!

Fidelity National  Title bought it. CEO of Fidelity National is Bill Foley, owner of Rock Creek.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/may/25/buyer-sees-potential-in-troubled-project/

Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, but....

[John Sabino]

Not underappreciated by me. I have played only Loch Lomond (co-design with Moorish), so don't have a lot to assess him/them on. However, based on Loch Lomond, I would rate them quite high. Putting aside the clubhouse and the exclusivity of the club, the course is fabulous. Their routing is right up there with some of the best in the world. Okay, the place is wet and there are drainage problems, but they did an extremely skillful job of varying the direction of holes, opening up unbelievable sight lines and vistas and in general make it is very pleasurable place to play. I especially liked the way they mixed shorter more strategic holes with longer more challenging holes. They also used the terrain to maximum advantage, ie, mixing uphill holes with downhill holes. The 345 yard potentially drivable par four fourteenth is one of the best holes I've ever played, like the 10th at Riviera offers some great risk/reward options and is deceptive from the tee. Also, the 9th at Loch Lomond is a great short par four, an area of strength it seems in their designs. I also liked they way they used shaved areas around elevated greens, particularly on the back nine. I wish I have played more of his designs to offer a greater comparison, but based on Loch Lomond I would gladly play more of his work.

http://top100golf.blogspot.com/2009/07/loch-lomond-golf-club.html