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Ted Cahill

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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/15/business/15subsidy.html?scp=3&sq=bandon+dunes&st=nyt

Many of us in the treehouse follow politics/public affairs with nearly the same vigor as GCA.  If so, I expect you have seen the battle in congress around funding the FAA.  One of the main sticking points in this battle is taxpayer subsidies of airline tickets to rural airports.  These subsidies appear to be under serious threat of being eliminated.  This will likely result in higher costs of flights to North Bend/Coos Bay.  The above article does a good job detailing how this airport and it's customers (us) benefit from taxpayer subsidies of our flights. 

I believe these subsidies should end.  They simply can't be justified in these austere times.  Frankly, if we can afford to travel to and play at Bandon Dunes- we don't exactly seem like candidates for taxpayer assistance. 

Treehouse- what say you?
“Bandon Dunes is like Chamonix for skiers or the
North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is
where those who really care end up.”

Steve Kline

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 06:12:02 AM »
I will never fly to North Bend again anyway as my clubs were late getting there and late getting home. I will just make the drive from Eugene. Due to layovers overall travel time is about the same anyway.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 07:08:09 AM »
That's a $16.5M smokescreen while $30M in taxes is lost daily.  Even my Republican congressman could figure that out.  This is about union busting and partisanship, and another chance to prove what sheep the American people have become.

Sheep were better as bunker builders (to try to bring this on target). 

RJ_Daley

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2011, 12:54:00 PM »
I think this sub-regional airport subsidy issue has several different levels of context and rationale.  The mere fact that these remote airports need subsidy to stay operational, is not in my mind too much tax mechanism support.  If it is a small tax on airline tix, or use of vice tax like lottery tax, or even direct tax breaks to construction enterprises and contractors that build out, run concessions oroperate small regional flight services; none of that really bothers me. 

This article's focus on Bandon regional airport build out via subsidy in large part due to the rise in the tourist-golf enterprise of which Keiser and his Bandon Resorts benefit is something of a side show to the overall question of support or no support for the continued operation of these sub regional airport facilities. There are other enterprises that benefit and use these regionals, like ranchers, lumber industry, and whatever other remote or rural population use them.  The idea that they should drive hours on crappy roads to hubs, is not progress, in my view. 

The problem is that operating a small regional air facility isn't like running a small truck stop.  Flying is safety intensive, and as we all know, intensely security oriented now.  So, these sub regionals still need up to snuff safety procedures and infra structure to operate, and it isn't efficient.  I still think it is a cost worth subsidy to keep them up and running; again with shared smallish sums on airport taxes of ticket tax fee, landing fees, lottery or whatever.  I don't think that is breaking the back of taxpayers or consumers when spread out over the total flying population, for the good of keeping remote areas of the country open.

What frosts my cookie is the 'other' aspects of corporate entitlement as the article points to these schemes where corp execs (an incredibly highly compensated lot at any rate) use 'shareholder' subsidy and tax loopholes or support to circumvent their costs on these luxurious junkets.  Do not tell me all the business that is conducted by these confabs of corp exec top 100 course golf seekers.  I've been around those well known golf remote enclaves enough to figure that whole rouse out.  That 'doing biz' notion is unmitigated BS!  If these a-holes were actually taking some time to use these golf round up junkets to set aside some REAL DOMESTIC JOB CREATION collaboration and doing REAL business, I'd be supportive. But, they go through cursory superficial so called business meeting IRS requirements to superficially verify a phony business nature to their golf round up (exchange phony biz documents, meet in isolated exec rooms at these corporate enclaves and patch into the home office for a phony few minutes, etc) all to pretend they are doing business. Instead, they confer on investment schemes to hoard even more money, filtch even more shareholder support of their hedonistic pursuits, and are doing nothing to better our economy.   All they are doing is showing eachother their largess, and gossip about their world top 100 golf conquests.  It is pure unadulterated BS. 

It is the subsidies that shareholders and taxpayers are forking out, FOR NOTHING IN RETURN that gets me, particularly about this golf resort related theme.  I don't begrudge them their corporate jet, nor the off-duty junket usage, nor their pursuit of hedonism. JUST PAY THEIR F-ING SHARE without the scheming tax evasion and subsidy not related to demonstrable economic good !!!
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

corey miller

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2011, 02:44:03 PM »


Glad to see a NYT article can get RJ so riled up that he can call a bunch of unidentified people he has never met a-holes. 

And then this doozy:

"Instead, they confer on investment schemes to hoard even more money, filtch even more shareholder support of their hedonistic pursuits, and are doing nothing to better our economy.   All they are doing is showing eachother their largess, and gossip about their world top 100 golf conquests.  It is pure unadulterated BS. "

you sound like our job creating president.

Carl Rogers

Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 03:06:11 PM »
Mr. Daley et al,

The larger issue is that there are a multitude of tax -  subsidy carve outs across different industries & interests that have some kind of very abstract macro-economic job creating rationale that do not cost much more than the rounding error of another rounding error.  Unfortunately it all adds up and it creates a big credibility problem.

Those days are numbered.

The re-set button has been hit.

Yes, I benefited from a real cheap airfare from Norfolk, VA to Bandon - Coos Bay last February.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 03:31:10 PM »
Those greedy capitalist pigs!  Let the blood run on Wall Street!  F------ union-bustin' Republican bastards!  Extreme partisans that they are.

But just wait.  In a couple more election cycles, we can wipe our a---- off with their hoard of depreciating greenbacks.  We'll all get one of President Obaman's shovel-ready union jobs, and  just like our Cuban brothers and sisters, we'll pretend that we're working just as our benevolent betters in government pretend that they're paying us.  Oh, what a glorious world this will be when we get rid of those fat cats!

About a week ago, the local paper ran an article on the continuing decline in housing prices.  Of the largest 20 American cities, homes were down around 5%.  Only one city showed an increase.  Guess which one was that- drum roll, please-  Washington D.C.

We met friends from out-of-town this past Tuesday for dinner at a very popular restaurant in Dallas.  The place was half-empty and quiet.  Across the street, a huge new restaurant had fewer than 10 cars in its parking lot.

On Wednesday we check in a plush hotel downtown Austin and the place is rocking.  There is a conference on the environment and the hotel is full.  I asked hotel management about how business has been and was told that it is always brisk.  

The common denominator is that government centers seem to be doing well.  So, to the extent that we can all go to work for or depend on the government, maybe there is hope after all.  Here's hoping that the President's stash is as big as his supporters' gullibility.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 03:33:37 PM by Lou_Duran »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 04:22:43 PM »
Hi Corey, I've looked and tried to find real evidence of a demonstrable return to our national economy that all the loopholes, corporate junkets, corporate subsidies, and cycle of conspicuous consumption by that certain group of privileged exec class has given back to our society.  I don't see much for the pain and austerity that those with the least are incurring being a 'shared' burden with the indignant-to pay their fair share, entitled upper income set.  (Noting that there are may wealthy who actually do say they know they are not contributing enough for what shape we are in)  The few with the lowest personal income taxes in our lifetimes, and reams of corporate loopholes and subsidies to apply are having no commensurate burden to carry as compared to those that have no such advantages.  The right wing plutocrat 'haves' simply whine and demand even more on the false theroy that 'it is their money' and the gov shouldn't be able to confiscate it via taxes. But they sure want the rest to support their good times.

Yes, a corporate jet incentive program that employs people is fine to its narrow extent.  But, I'm saying that they ought to be used for real corporate biz purpose that give back something like collaborate to boost America's economy and job front,  if the perc is given.  Flying ones buddies and clubs to a remote location for giggles and grins is not demonstrable return for the perc, in my view.  If they pay their way themselves, great - they have the wealth to do it without the rest of us taxpayers subsidizing it in many expensing and writeoff schemes.

Your sarc about our 'job creating president' is becoming more and more incredible and unsympathetic out here in real taxpayer land, where no such perc advantages are available and jobs are not being created in proportion to the advantages being enjoyed.  When one sees the petulant extent that the corporate entitlement to their comfy percs crowd go through to justify their lobbied advantages and as they say 'do everything they can to see BHO is not re-elected', peoples stomachs are beginning to churn.  As Bill McB and others infer, it is understood that the ill thought out crusade against the regional airport funding as a hostage to the right wing ideology of anti-collective bargaining and union organizing is transparent in motivations.  You can only play these hostage games to advance corporatist agenda in various arena so long before a backlash will happen, in my view.  You haven't seen a 'reset button' yet, Mr Rogers, if you ask me.  All you've seen is manufactured anxt within a very loud, relatively small crossections of easy to ply folk that haven't quite figured it out just yet.  

The very best description of all this corporate plutocrat manufactured teahadist anxt and anger was observed recently by Howard Fineman when he characterized that concerted right wing political-economic hostage taking strategy and likened it to a 'slow motion secession' from the national economy and the obligations to keep America a sound and viable economy for as many citizens as we should be able to promote and encourage - not for an elite few.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 04:26:41 PM »
Educational reading Lou.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/running-in-the-red-how-the-us-on-the-road-to-surplus-detoured-to-massive-debt/2011/04/28/AFFU7rNF_story.html

Those greedy capitalist pigs!  Let the blood run on Wall Street!  F------ union-bustin' Republican bastards!  Extreme partisans that they are.

But just wait.  In a couple more election cycles, we can wipe our a---- off with their hoard of depreciating greenbacks.  We'll all get one of President Obaman's shovel-ready union jobs, and  just like our Cuban brothers and sisters, we'll pretend that we're working just as our benevolent betters in government pretend that they're paying us.  Oh, what a glorious world this will be when we get rid of those fat cats!

About a week ago, the local paper ran an article on the continuing decline in housing prices.  Of the largest 20 American cities, homes were down around 5%.  Only one city showed an increase.  Guess which one was that- drum roll, please-  Washington D.C.

We met friends from out-of-town this past Tuesday for dinner at a very popular restaurant in Dallas.  The place was half-empty and quiet.  Across the street, a huge new restaurant had fewer than 10 cars in its parking lot.

On Wednesday we check in a plush hotel downtown Austin and the place is rocking.  There is a conference on the environment and the hotel is full.  I asked hotel management about how business has been and was told that it is always brisk.  

The common denominator is that government centers seem to be doing well.  So, to the extent that we can all go to work for or depend on the government, maybe there is hope after all.  Here's hoping that the President's stash is as big as his supporters' gullibility.


"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2011, 04:28:32 PM »
Lou, all the plutocrats were not in town. They were in NOLA hobnobbing with the Koch Bros and the corporate sponsored ALEC convention.  Didn't you get the memo?

http://www.truth-out.org/big-business-woos-alec-legislators-big-easy/1312401770

http://www.justice.org/cps/rde/xchg/justice/hs.xsl/15044.htm

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joe Grasty

Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2011, 05:34:47 PM »
I don't believe in government subsidies for anything, whether it be golf courses or flights, or your kid's schools.  Pay for what you need or do without.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 08:54:08 PM »
I don't believe in government subsidies for anything, whether it be golf courses or flights, or your kid's schools.  Pay for what you need or do without.

What business are you in?

Do you own a home?

Do you drive a car?

Subsidies are an unfortunate fact of our money-oriented political system.   Whether it's business loopholes, mortgage interest deductions, or subsidies to corn farmers and oil companies, subsidies are unfortunately not going away as long as money is the lifeblood of politics. 

What does it cost to buy a congressman these days?

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2011, 11:32:23 PM »
Bandon or North Bend/Coos Bay is not one of the airports receiving subsidies?

North Platte which I have used to leave Sand Hills is one.  Atlantic City is another.

The entire list in a spread sheet is below.

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/rural/proximity.pdf

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2011, 12:33:31 AM »
In Oregon the Astoria and Newport airports have had subsidies for airline service cancelled this year and no longer have commercial flights. Not one whisper. Coos Bay has a number of commerical flights daily from Portland and San Francisco. At least Keiser has made The North Bend/.Coos Bay airport viable. The number of private lights is less relevant. Didn't see a NYT aticle on Astoria or Newport. Why now?

Lou_Duran

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2011, 12:12:02 PM »
Educational reading Lou.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/running-in-the-red-how-the-us-on-the-road-to-surplus-detoured-to-massive-debt/2011/04/28/AFFU7rNF_story.html

[

I saw this last week while traveling and just got around to reading the linked article.  Thanks for thinking of my educational needs, but could you at least provide something a bit more challenging and serious?

Look at the details (and causation) in the tax revenues and government expenditures during Clinton's time in office as well as the subsequent events following his departure and, perhaps, a reasonable person might come to very different conclusions.

On tax revenues, the facts are that the tech revolution and the ensuing tech stock bubble created a tremendous amount of wealth.  Clinton signed a Republican bill that cut capital gains from 28% to 20% and when this incentivized the taking of capital gains on the gigantic stock prices run, voila, a bunch of money came in to the treasury for at least two years.

On spending, as the party of government, Democrats and Clinton took full advantage of the "peace dividend", cutting back defense and related headcount and procurements with great delight.  Of course, Clinton's claim that the "era of Big Government" was over had nothing to do with him or his base, but by gutting defense and being forced to triangulate by Gingrich's Republican congress following the electoral repudiation of the president's policies (remember HillaryCare?) following his first mid-term elections.  Quite ironic that the same guys who crucified Bush II and Rumsfeld for being inadequately prepared (remember the issues of body and vehicle armour?) for the widely-popular Afghanistan campaign were the ones previously leading the Democrats' raid on defense stockpiles and capabilites.

On subsequent events, by the time Bush took over in 2001, the tech bubble had already burst, the rest of the market was trending down, and the economy was approaching recession.  With little capital gains to be taken by investors, little revenue flowed to the treasury (funny how those things work!).  Then the "unthinkable" or "Black Swan" event that forever has changed our lives took place, 9/11.  Markets crash along with our confidence.  How quickly we forget.

I won't bother further with dueling links, but here are a couple for those seeking edification.        

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_successful_clinton_economy.html

http://townhall.com/columnists/donaldlambro/2010/10/26/clinton,_bush_prove_cutting_capital_gains_rate_works

Lastly, for those not wed to ideology who can still apply a bit of common sense, think a bit about the efficiency of spending.  Can we take money from the most productive and transfer it to others and expect that the economy will grow?  Is economic activity increased by digging a hole and refilling it (Keynesian economics) or by people spending and investing the money they earn on things that they deem valuable?  Look up Bastiat's broken window fallacy and see if it makes sense.  For extra credit, consider the implications of 19% of GDP.  Believe it or not, this is serious stuff though not necessarily compatible with popular opinion or visions of a more humane, tranquil world.  And the implications on golf as the game we love and the courses we are so enthralled by are huge.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 02:38:57 PM by Lou_Duran »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2011, 01:42:53 PM »
Lou, do you seriously think rebuilding our country's aging and deteriorated infrastructure would be the same as "digging a hole and refilling it?"

No knee jerk responses please.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2011, 02:21:45 PM »
Lou, do you seriously think rebuilding our country's aging and deteriorated infrastructure would be the same as "digging a hole and refilling it?"

No knee jerk responses please.

Bill, Bill, through the years that we've known each other, when have I stated something that you considered other than a "knee jerk" response?

As to "rebuilding our country's aging and deteriorated infrastructure", I thought that this had already been done with the last of your leader's "stimulus" on "shovel-ready" projects.  Oops, I forgot- and maybe this qualifies as a "knee jerk resonse"-  the smartest president we've ever been graced by recently mused that perhaps those weren't so "shovel-ready" afterall; a considerable part of the money going instead to prop up government employees at all levels.  Of course, the kickbacks to the party via political contributions by the public employees' unions had no bearing on the diversion of infrastructure funding to more appreciative recipients, and I am sure that Krugman and others have fashioned an argument that this too had a Keynesian multiplier/stimulative effect that many with your POV find convincing.

The sad thing is that our vital infrastructure has been foresaken by your sympaticos who consider carbon and the internal combustion engine as impediments to a "progressive" society.  I've seen reports that over 20% of fuel taxes which are supposed to be spent on such things as roads and bridges have been instead re-directed to Jerry Brown-type projects of the future (hyper-dense population centers dependent on mass transportation).  Of course, despite the great spending on mass transportation, the % of the population using it continues to decline.

The bottom line is that if we would direct the fuel and related taxes and fees to the needs of our infrastructure, there would not be a need to print more money, call it and the ensuing inflation an "investment", and raise taxes.  So, the long answer to your short question: in effect, attempting to force people to live in opposition to their preferences, and buliding high-speed train infrastructure like the one passed on by your fair state but embraced by CA, is indeed akin to digging a hole and refilling it.

On the plus side, it is my understanding that our friend in southern IL has tapped into the "shovel-ready" stash and 's bailing money like it is hay (and in Texas today, hay is performing like gold).  At least the largess is "multiplying" among the several golf clubs he has been able to join.  Life is good, for some!      
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 02:24:33 PM by Lou_Duran »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2011, 03:35:12 PM »
That's pretty much the level of bombast I was expecting.  I guess I am hoping for a rational plan going forward that meets a variety of needs, including modernization of our crumbling infrastructure (including 19th C. Water and sewer systems), creation of private sector jobs, and growth of demand.  The latter is critical to getting our country out of the current malaise. 

Lou_Duran

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2011, 04:23:42 PM »
That's pretty much the level of bombast I was expecting.  

Bill,

The reason that we can't seem to hold a discussion is that anything I or anyone that sees the world similarly can offer will always be dismissed by you and people with your POV in that manner (Dick Daley is similarly mesmerized by the word "sophistry").  You want a "rational plan" that makes socialism work.  By its very nature, it simply cannot.  If there was one (a rational plan), it would have been devised and implemented long ago.

The thesis of what was offered as "educational" to my original reply was that the pickel (or is it pickle?) we're in is due not to spending, but Bush's tax cuts and their extension that Obama was forced to accept.  That is blatant, static nonsense, easily refuted by a simple analysis of tax revenue flows on a timeline, knowledge of history, and common sense.

Now, we're both in our sixties, and it is indeed difficult to consider that our long-held beliefs that define our self-concept might be mistaken.  I don't take a backseat to anyone in terms of compassion and goodwill toward my fellow human beings.  Not being a member of the 1% club, it would be very easy for me to side with the president- talk about the biggest corporate jet user, though he's not really the owner- and say to hell with it, tax the "rich" to help the poor and the economy IF I BELIEVED THAT THE COMMON GOOD WAS ADVANCED BY THIS APPROACH.  All we have to do is look at Europe and England right now and see what benefits socialism has brought them.

You can be as bombastic as you like, but I'll entertain your arguments on how taxing the 1%s and increasing spending will modernize our infrastructure, create private sector jobs, and increase demand.  Demand and job growth are very dependent on consumer and investor confidence.  For roads and bridges, the funds have been largely there, though government chose to misappropriate large amounts to unrelated but favored projects.

Either by design or through mishap, the president has consistently chosen a path that promotes uncertainty, division, and a heavy reliance on the public sector.  If you were arguing that growing the public sector and increasing demand for goods and services from this segment was important in overcoming our problems in the short run, I might begin to understand where you are coming from (though disagree completely).  Like with the Fountain of Youth, I am afraid that the "progressives" (mostly socialists dressed-up more palatably) search for the "Third Way" will not end well.       

Bill_McBride

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2011, 05:15:44 PM »
Please note that I never mentioned or advocated "socialism" in any form.  This is your preemptive statement. 

Do you really believe that public ownership of assets such as the interstate highway system, water and sewer systems, bridges, dams and airports constitutes "socialism?"

In my opinion those assets should be owned by the people in the form of the nation, state or city, and the operation and maintenance of the assets is the responsibility of those entities.  Given the deplorable condition of many of these assets, publicly financed renovation seems a logical next step to me. 

But there I go again, getting all logical. 

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2011, 11:31:31 PM »
Lou,

Common good has been advanced. There is no question more personal accountability must be entered into the implementation of government programs. When you inherit a mess, that had only a financial meltdown as the endgame, NO PLAN is going to wave the wand of oceans of jobs and prosperity. I've not been happy with nearly ALL of our elected federal officials. It isn't party specific, the whole bunch of them are acting like little kids at a time when serious, tough decisions need to be made.

You cite Europe and England as examples of socialism gone wrong.  Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland are doing a pretty good job. Germany, despite the huge costs it's still absorbing from taking back an oppressed, gutted other half of its nation, has remained solid. England's mistake was allowing an open-door, EU policy with semi-impoverished, new-entry nations, which flooded them with immigrants and lacked the safeguards to check heavy-benefit burdens. Prior to that they were doing quite well. They certainly got sucked up in the global melt-down as well, which added to the strain. Scotland had been on fairly solid footing as well.

We're the only mature, major economic power without some national heathcare provision. I guess the rest of them have it all wrong and we have it covered. C'mon, what we have going on here is an extortionate joke.

I'm no financial guru, but let's be frank, NOBODY has a real handle on where this is going. Nations like Greece and Spain also have what...greater disparity in wealth amongst its population than most other countries with similar resources. Couple that with some poor economic models and blundering; it's no surprise they are where they find themselves. The problem is, THE WORLD has problems because of them, AND us!

As I think you would readily agree, and I'm certainly an advocate of this; we need a balance of programs, with real accountability for those that might need help(which is enlarging to contain the middle class), and some cleaning up on loopholes and excess at the top. Everyone needs to step up their responsibility and we can advance that common good bigtime!

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 11:35:25 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Lou_Duran

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2011, 10:50:27 AM »
Please note that I never mentioned or advocated "socialism" in any form.  This is your preemptive statement.

What is a preemptive statement?  You having been advocating for a highly progressive tax structure to support, in part, a very large, ultra-powerful central government directing most important aspects of our lives?    

Do you really believe that public ownership of assets such as the interstate highway system, water and sewer systems, bridges, dams and airports constitutes "socialism?"

No.  But that is not the issue, is it?  Funds for these things including for much of the flood protection in New Orleans have been provided but diverted or misappropriated.  What makes you think that setting up an Obama Infrastructure Bank will overcome decades of history of opposite results?  How's Gore's "Lock Box" idea on social security working for you?  Do you really buy that all of a sudden we will stop the hundreds of billions of "fraud and waste" in all sorts of programs because the guys we have in office now are better motivated and capable than their predecessors of both parties?

In my opinion those assets should be owned by the people in the form of the nation, state or city, and the operation and maintenance of the assets is the responsibility of those entities.  Given the deplorable condition of many of these assets, publicly financed renovation seems a logical next step to me.  

But there I go again, getting all logical.  

See above.  Perhaps your definition of "logical" and mine differs.  Looking at your argument, I am reminded of another definition; I believe it was Einstein who noted that insanity is doing the same thing over and over with the expectation of different results.

BTW, have you ever noticed the difference in public and toll roads in terms of condition, cleanliness, repairs, and length and cost of construction?  I am not necessarily an advocate for private roads, but the process of building and maintaining them should be similar.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 10:54:43 AM by Lou_Duran »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2011, 12:02:22 PM »
I surrender, Lou, you have out-typed me. 

Lou_Duran

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Re: Slightly OT- FAA funding battle and how it effects Bandon Dunes
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2011, 12:11:47 PM »
I surrender, Lou, you have out-typed me.  

Oh, Bill, you are so droll!

Lou,

Common good has been advanced. There is no question more personal accountability must be entered into the implementation of government programs. When you inherit a mess, that had only a financial meltdown as the endgame, NO PLAN is going to wave the wand of oceans of jobs and prosperity. I've not been happy with nearly ALL of our elected federal officials. It isn't party specific, the whole bunch of them are acting like little kids at a time when serious, tough decisions need to be made.

You cite Europe and England as examples of socialism gone wrong.  Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland are doing a pretty good job. Germany, despite the huge costs it's still absorbing from taking back an oppressed, gutted other half of its nation, has remained solid. England's mistake was allowing an open-door, EU policy with semi-impoverished, new-entry nations, which flooded them with immigrants and lacked the safeguards to check heavy-benefit burdens. Prior to that they were doing quite well. They certainly got sucked up in the global melt-down as well, which added to the strain. Scotland had been on fairly solid footing as well.

We're the only mature, major economic power without some national heathcare provision. I guess the rest of them have it all wrong and we have it covered. C'mon, what we have going on here is an extortionate joke.

I'm no financial guru, but let's be frank, NOBODY has a real handle on where this is going. Nations like Greece and Spain also have what...greater disparity in wealth amongst its population than most other countries with similar resources. Couple that with some poor economic models and blundering; it's no surprise they are where they find themselves. The problem is, THE WORLD has problems because of them, AND us!

As I think you would readily agree, and I'm certainly an advocate of this; we need a balance of programs, with real accountability for those that might need help(which is enlarging to contain the middle class), and some cleaning up on loopholes and excess at the top. Everyone needs to step up their responsibility and we can advance that common good bigtime!

Cheers,
Kris 8)


Kris,

Somewhere in storage I have a VHS tape of a golf lesson I was taking from one of Hank Haney's instructors in a multi-station facility at his original place in McKinney, TX (a converted horse barn, with the video stations in the hayloft).  The camera caught part of a lesson Hank was giving to a struggling high-handicap, middle aged man, in which he is admoninishing the guy with comments such as "your swing is on so many planes I don't know which one to look at".  Not that I am the Hank Haney of these thingss or that you're the high-handicap student, but I'll try to touch on a couple of your "planes".

You are absolutely right, no magic wand exists.  The same people who crucified Bush for much of his eight years and continue to blame him for everything today take great offense when their ideological opposites do the same with Obama.  I am actually not all that upset with the politicians.  For the most part, they respond to the requirements of their constituents.  It is the segment of the American people I am disappointed with who continue to demand more and more from government all in the name of "fairness" and "social justice".

Has the common good been advanced? I suppose in some areas as minority rights it is true.  But by what means and at what costs?  Is the progress the result of leftist activism, or the natural progression of a wealthier, more diverse democratic society?  Is a job stimuls program where the government spends $250,000 for one job that pays $50,000 advancement?

You may wish to look closer at the European countries you cite.  Except for Germany, they are small, homogenous, and largely well-endowed with natural resources.  Germany also much more closely resembles these countries than it does our much larger, heterogenous society.  Also you many note that many of the European countries are moving in opposite directions economically than the U.S. and don't support much of a defense capability.  As the U.S. disassembles its still considerable militaty to feed the social demands of the segment of the population I allude to above, it will be interesting to watch whether Europe chooses to take up the slack and spend to defend itself, or say "---k it, keep the welfare coming and we'll all learn Mandarin, Russian, or whatever language" the prevailing aggressive power imposes on it.

Is healthcare a right or a good?  We in effect have had national healthcare since I can remember which is subsidised by corporations, consumers, and taxpayers. The Dallas Morning News had an interesting editorial piece in Sunday's edition by Noemi Emery of the Weekly Standard (sorry I am too lazy to link it), but might be worth your consideration (and time finding it).

I would suggest that providing expensive things largely for free to over 300 million people creates many problems not the least of which is cost/affordability, but also the diminuation of freedom and individual rights.  Should a white, 60 year-old fat guy with a painful  back which a $50,000 operation can alleviate be first forced to lose 50 pounds and see if that takes care of the problem?  Should a 15 year-old 5'4", 300 pound pre-diabetic black teenager be put on a strict diet and exercise regime and removed from the custody of his equally obese single mother?  Does the government clerk who abuses sick leave and is required to get a doctor's notice to justify further paid absences be covered?  BTW, these are all real examples so common which anyone who has dealt with socialized healthcare can recognize.  And of course, the majority of "developed" nations can be wrong.  They are all having similar problems which will only get worse as the U.S., the "giver" and maker of new techniques, technologies, and advanced drugs, is forced through economic necessity and political disincentives to curtail its focus on furthering the science and join the "takers".

For what it is worth, my suggestion for you and all others is to at least become comfortable with economics and finance.  It is important to align hopes and wishes with what is possible in reality.

Lastly, prior to Obama cheapening and misdefining the word "balance", I might agree with you, provided that you ommited the word "programs".  We have way too many "plans" and "programs" going on, most of which are rehashed, newly-coined fantasies and disasters already tried and many still in place.  I am all for a different approach with personal responsibility and accountability in the forefront.  Get rid of ALL the loopholes.  No corporate taxes.  Everybody pays taxes, and no one's taxes are increased without the same corresponding rate adjustment on everyone else.  And if we want to get really serious, tie expenditures to receipts over a short time horizon, say three to five years.  Respect federalism and allow the states to truly reflect the will of the people and serve as willing laboratories of social policies.  Who knows, maybe a section of the country will adopt more utopian socialist practices and look more like the European countries you admire (I wouldn't bet on it).
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 12:21:44 PM by Lou_Duran »