Golf architecture and the prevailing wind

[Patrick_Mucci]

John McMillan,

No, I think prevailing is the correct word in the context of the direction of the wind, related to the design of golf holes and a golf course.

Gradient speaks more to the velocity of the wind, in the context of its increasing and decreasing values.

And, since Peter Goss chose to include the word Prevailing in the title of this post, I thought I would be consistent with his terminology.  

Perhaps you should start a related thread on the effects of gradient winds on the design of golf holes and courses.

[Windy Hill]

It's a pity that this topic has been "hijacked" by the usual suspects ranting about all sorts of other minor issues. It's a good topic, answered by knowlegeable, serious posters but unfortunatley ruined by all the other rubbish posted here. This is becoming all too common on this great site.

Could you guys email each other privately with all your "point scoring" ranting and raving and leave the serious issues to people who are interested in increasing their golf architectural knowledge. Most of the wind on this topic is from you know where.

Some topics on GCA end up with 50 or 60 replies and its becoming difficult and time consuming to sift through all the silly and irrelevant posts to get to the replies that actually stick to the topic.

[Rich_Goodale]

Mr. Hill

I responded directly to the question at hand in my first few posts on this topic.  Do you have any opinions of your own?  We'd like to hear them, in your own name, if possible.....

[Peter Goss]

Very interesting post Mr Hill - I thought I was the only one exasperated with the self flagellation and one-upsmanship exhibited on this discussion point.
Quite frankly, I thought this site was supposed to be a free flowing commentry on various aspects of golf architecture. I am an enthusiast that does not know everything and am keen to learn and debate with world authorities such as Tom Doak and  Mike Clayton amongst others on this site as well as fellow enthusiasts with a valid point of view. To those enthusiasts that already know everything, Mr Hill is quite correct in my view in asking you to correspond via personal email if the comment is irrelevant to the discussion point.
The topic I raised is difficult. I will have a major role in a course renovation and will have a major role in the development of new courses from greenfields sites. I am eager to learn and understand the issues upon which a large amount of capital will be spent.
Tom Doak mentions wind factor in  his book "Anatomy of a Golf Course" but does not specifically develop his thoughts as to how the architect responds to challenge of designing holes that are usually affected by the prevailing wind that remain a challege when the wind drops or is reversed. Responses such as Jeff Brauers are enlightening.
The selfish banter that has characterised this and other fascinating topics on GCA does a significant disservice to the stated aims of the website. By all means continue your friendships and in-jokes etc but please, many others do
not need or want to know of irrelevancies.
Please allow discussions to stay on track to engage the experts exercising their minds and engaging us with their experience,if not brilliance.
Now, what about the wide fairways and diagonal bunkering?

[Eddie_Revell]

Well stated Peter. I couldn't agree more.
I too was interested in this thread but became very annoyed with the distractions.

[Eddie_Revell]

Well stated Peter. I couldn't agree more.
I too was interested in this thread but became very annoyed with the distractions.

[Maurice_G]

Fascinating topic -hard to see the wood from the trees in the responses however.
I'm with you all the way Peter, Eddie and Windy Hill (are you from Texas?). More substance, less wind please chaps.
And what about a bit more substance from the pros? Great post Jeff!

[John_McMillan]

Windy -

I'm not sure if your post is directed at me.  Posts of your nature can be taken a little more seriously if they don't involve a "internet alias" anonimity.

Tom Doak's response was that he considered wind when it was significant, and when it was predictable.  Is it not of interest to determine situations in which wind is predictable?  That these situations are determined by characteristics of the land and site makes it, I think, particularly relevant to issues of architecture and design.  

Jeff Brauer suggested designing "greens within a green" to provide different playing charcteristics in different wind conditions.  Do you think this design feature will work equally well in an area where the wind is likely to blow from two different directions in the same day (say Long Island) as in an area where the wind direction varies, but is more or less set for a day (say Texas)?  

[Windy Hill]

John,

No I was not directing my comments to you. In fact I thought you added to the debate and your comments were great.

By the way to you and Rich......Windy is a nickname for sure. However I have been known by that name for a long time and I live in Essendon Vic Australia.  Hope that clears things up.

James H

[Rich_Goodale]

James H

Thanks for exonerating John, whose contributions I too found fascinating (don't, yet, completely believe them--but I'm still fascinated!).  If it's me who offended, sorry, and even if it was somebody else, throw the blame on me anyway so we can get back to the various conversations on this stie.

Please do contribute, if and when you feel you want to.  I'm sure we'd appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers

Rich

[John_McMillan]

Rich -

I'm not sure I would completely believe me either.

I don't claim to (yet) have a complete theory of how wind affects golf and architecture - but I do know that there is a heck of a lot that is known about wind which has not yet found its way into how golfers play and how architects design golf courses.  

If you're still in Long Island, visit one of the local sailing clubs, and ask if they've taken wind traces of the area around Long Island - and ask them about types and cycles of wind shifts in that area.  I'd be fascinated to hear back what you learn.

[Will Waugh]

Peter
I believe Alistair MacKenzie had it right with his wide open fairways - this feature allows so much in golf strategy and particularly allows for cross winds, prevailing or otherwise. Must be one of the better arguments against tree encroachment.

[Rich_Goodale]

John

I won't be back near LIS for some time, but I do have some very good contacts back there who might have some of the answers you are looking for, and I was planning to contact them anyway on some other mattres.  I will continue this conversation privately so as to not upset those who see this sort of peripheral activity as non-productive.

Cheers

Rich

[Tom Doak]

The wind is about the only thing we have going for us in Lubbock, Texas, so we've thought a lot about it on that particular design.

What no one has talked about here is designing specific golf shots for the prevailing wind.  At Talking Stick, I know that Ben Crenshaw thought a lot about the holes, setting up a green for a fade if the prevailing wind was left-to-right.

We want a couple of holes in Lubbock to feature running approaches, and the only way anyone's going to hit them is in a tailwind, so they are set up to be the longer, downwind holes.  The holes into the south wind are better candidates for bunkering in front.  However, I've designed one short par-4 downwind to a smallish green with bunkers 90% across the front of the green, to see who can figure out how to make the ball stop quickly downwind.

The wind will blow out of the north or west some days, too.

The other point [which Greg Ramsay alluded to] is that sometimes the topo dictates different things.  Sand dunes form along the line of a strong prevailing wind, and if the dune formation is big enough, it's pretty tough to go against the grain.  Most of the holes at Pacific Dunes run north and south, because those are the prevailing winds, and there are some 30-foot dunes in the way of east-west holes.  The prevailing wind at Barnbougle is west-to-east, so again we're going to have to play a lot of the holes straight with the wind -- but the east-west orientation adds the sun factor.

It's great to talk about "boxing the compass," but I still think you've got to build the best holes the land offers up.  Does anyone think they got Royal Troon wrong, and they should have put four east-west holes across the railway in the fields?

[TEPaul]

Speaking of the effects of the strength of the wind on golf shots there is an indicative display at the USGA's test center at Far Hills that shows and explains various wind strengths on a golf shots (drives) using various wind speeds and I believe also various shot trajectories. My initial reaction was that various wind speeds effect golf balls (and obviously certain trajectories) far more than most golfers (designers?) realize!