Camargo and the U.S. Am Qualifier - What lessons can be learned

[Steve Kline]

Many on this site are familiar with Camargo designed by Raynor and updated by Doak. Here are a few photo threads of the course (the second includes an aerial):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46180.0.html
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39026.0.html

Yesterday I played in the U.S. Am qualifier at Camargo. I have played in this qualifier off and on for the last 20 years and the course has hosted the qualifier for 78 years (only missing one year after the Shoal Creek membership fiasco). In virtually every year a score under par for 36 holes will get you to the Am and in some years a score over par will make it. While the course has been lengthened some what it still only plays to 6,600 yards, although it is a par 70. There was only one par 4 over 450 yards (454) and both par 5s are quite reachable - even for me. Even without being long in any since the qualifying scores have stayed the same in time trying to qualify there.

Yesterday, the course was in good shape given the terrible weather we have had this summer in Cincinnati. However, the greens were as soft as I have ever seen them and they were slower than almost any year I can remember. Also, the rough was quite benign. Conditions were ideal for scoring and speculation was that it would take -3 at least to qualify (as always -1 made it). But, the stroke average was still 76.3 and that is with a number of players who shot higher scores withdrawing or no carding. There were only six rounds under par all day (I should have had one of them but finished tripe bogey-bogey to shoot one over  ).

Here are the course statistics for yesterday's round - https://www.ghintpp.com/GCGA/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=52. Two of the three hardest holes were par 3s - number 5 (Eden, pin was middle left) and number 8 (Biarritz, pin was front center). Number 8 was the hardest hole and played almost a full stroke over par.

I played with a soon to be college sophomore at Ball State and a soon to be college freshman at Purdue. Both hit the ball quite long. Both struggled to break 150 for 36 holes. The field also included the 2011 Ohio Am champion, Rob Gerwin (Camargo member, unofficial course record holder with a 59 and has played in many, many US Ams, Mid Ams, etc. As expected there were plenty of good players in the field.

So what are some of my conclusions?

1. The distance issue is only a problem for the elite of the elite. The rest of us may hit it further but it doesn't necessarily make a well-designed course any easier. Stop lengthening the courses for four days a year. Just let them shoot under par or have the USGA do something to limit distance for the elite of the elite. For the rest of us added distance is nothing but fun.
2. Bigger greens with scary hazards (mostly on the sides) can make the course challenging for good players but playable for the bogey golfer. On all but three holes at Camargo the ball can be run on to the green. Also, the greens are so big they can be easily hit by anyone aiming at the center. Getting close enough to make birdie when the pin is cut near the deep and intimidating bunkers or near the interesting slopes in the greens is quite difficult. The bigger greens provide for more flexibility.

What else do the results at a course of moderate length that many would deem to easy for good amateurs at first glance say?

[BCrosby]

Steve -

Interesting observations. Your point about big greens makes sense. Give the bogey player room to hit the green, but pins can always be set next to nasty hazards for those hunting birdies. Sounds like MacK at ANGC. All things being equal, big greens are more strategic than small ones, almost by definition.

Not sure I follow your point on "elite" distance. "The distance issue is only a problem for the elite of the elite. The rest of us may hit it further but it doesn't necessarily make a well-designed course any easier." Please elaborate.

Looking at the scoring by hole, what was with the over par average on a par 5 (the 17th)?. Surprising result for a field this strong.

Bob

[Jeff Shelman]

Steve,

Thanks for the post. When I played at Blue Mound last week, I talked to the pro for a bit after the round.

It is pretty clear that they know somebody is going to go really low during the stroke play portion of the US Am.

But he said something I thought was interesting. They hope that recapturing of some of the real estate lost on greens will help. If you tuck the pins, golfers are still going to hit it in the same spot for the most part. So instead of having 8 feet for birdie, a player might have 12 feet now. And there is a limited number of 12 footers that even good players can make.

[Steve Kline]

Not sure I follow your point on "elite" distance. "The distance issue is only a problem for the elite of the elite. The rest of us may hit it further but it doesn't necessarily make a well-designed course any easier." Please elaborate.

Looking at the scoring by hole, what was with the over par average on a par 5 (the 17th)?. Surprising result for a field this strong.

Bob

The youngest guy I played with bombed the ball. On the longest hole - #4 at 454 yards he had only 100 yards or less to the flag. He reached #2 with a 3-wood and an iron. While lots of guys hit it really far now I don't see that it has affected scoring that much - except for the elite players at the Nationwide Tour level or higher. The extra length has allowed those guys to eliminate angles and destroy courses like Camargo. But for the rest of us, even very good amateurs, extra length hasn't made these courses much easier.

17 is the road hole at Camargo. The first round it played 520ish and the second round 540ish. That's easily reachable by almost everyone in the field. But the flag was tucked just four paces behind the Road hole bunker.While you could easily hit the green in two you were left with a difficult putt - probably 40-50 feet with 3-5 feet of break and just past the hole it really ran away meaning you were left with a come backer of 5-8 feet if you got it to the hole. So, not many easy two putt birdies. Also, if you laid up the wedge shot was not picnic. Sure you could hit it past the hole but you were left with a ticklish 15-20 footer. I contrinute one of the others here thanks to a poor wedge shot that spun into the bunker. This is a perfect example of hole location making the hole difficult for the good player but still playable for par or bogey by everyone else. Put the hole anywhere right of the Road hole bunker and the stroke average would have been under par yesterday.

[Steve Kline]

Jeff - and they didn't even use some of the harder pin placements yesterday like back left on 1 (I think back hole locations are scarier and harder to hit to with half wedges than front ones), left on 3, left on 6, front on 7, front right on the Redan (#15) or just on to the back right plateau of the Maiden (#16). The last two I mentioned had relatively easy pin placements this year.

[JLahrman]

17 is the road hole at Camargo. The first round it played 520ish and the second round 540ish. That's easily reachable by almost everyone in the field. But the flag was tucked just four paces behind the Road hole bunker.

As soon as I saw the stats I knew that's where the pin had to be on 17...

[Jim Colton]

Steve Kline, David Egan, Chris Sabo. Some serious celebrities in the field!

[Steve Kline]

Steve Kline, David Egan, Chris Sabo. Some serious celebrities in the field!

Clearly my awesomeness speaks for itself since you witnessed my unofficial course record on a Doak. I don't know David though. Sabo plays in every local tournament there is but I've never played with him. Johnny Bench used to play in a bunch of local stuff too. And, you probably didn't notice our own Chris Cupit since I'm not sure even finished the first 18. However, I did have a great time in he practice round and at after dinner afterward with him.

[JLahrman]

The field also included the 2011 Ohio Am champion, Rob Gerwin (Camargo member, unofficial course record holder with a 59 and has played in many, many US Ams, Mid Ams, etc).

When I used to work in the bag shop at Camargo many moons ago, I played nine holes with Rob one summer evening.  I was about a 5 handicap but played out of my mind and shot a 33 on the front nine.  Rob shot a 36.  Just a casual round of course, but naturally in my mind I "beat" him.  I immediately informed him that I would never be playing any more golf with him, thereby completing my career against him at 1-0.  He probably doesn't remember this at all, but obviously it's a highlight for me.

He's a great golfer and a really nice guy too.  You could learn so much from him just by his attitude.  If he hit a poor iron and missed a green, his approach was "I've never missed the green over here, this will be a really fun opportunity for a great up-and-down!"  Even in a competitive round.

I don't know what Rob would consider his career highlight to be, but I know he lost to Matt Kuchar in the quarterfinals of the 1997 US Am (the year Kuchar won it).  Obviously Rob plays a lot of competitive golf, but much of his golf was played in casual after-work rounds .  To go from that to holding your own for a chance to go to the Masters was pretty cool to watch.

[Kevin Jackson]

As a member of the grounds crew at Camargo I will give a small defense to the course and the way it was setup. The weather conditions have been brutal out there for the past couple weeks.  Last week when every day was at least 95 degrees, we pretty much lost a few greens (Practice, 5ish, 6ish, 11 badly).  We had to nurse those greens for a whole week to get them playable.  The super, Doug Norwell, mentioned to me just before the Am that he wishes one year he could really set it up the way he wants with green speeds and such, but the weather never cooperates.  Leading up to the Am we were scheduling double cuts of greens, but we never ended up doing any because of the heat.  If we would have made the greens any faster they would have been lost within the week.  Greens were even watered during play throughout the day.

I also caddied yesterday for the Am and saw how the course was played for good players.  I was surprised how much guys were struggling.  As for the strategy of the course I have never found there to be very many hazards off the tee for the longer hitters.  But I realized yesterday that despite few fairway bunkers in play, hitting fairways are huge for getting close approaches, and if you miss the fairway there is always a "dead" side. A few examples are 2 to the right, 3 to the right, 4 left, 7 left, 10 right.  Even with the rough not too penal and the generous green openings, guys couldn't get the ball close to the pin from the rough.

[Steve Kline]

As a member of the grounds crew at Camargo I will give a small defense to the course and the way it was setup. The weather conditions have been brutal out there for the past couple weeks.  Last week when every day was at least 95 degrees, we pretty much lost a few greens (Practice, 5ish, 6ish, 11 badly).  We had to nurse those greens for a whole week to get them playable.  The super, Doug Norwell, mentioned to me just before the Am that he wishes one year he could really set it up the way he wants with green speeds and such, but the weather never cooperates.  Leading up to the Am we were scheduling double cuts of greens, but we never ended up doing any because of the heat.  If we would have made the greens any faster they would have been lost within the week.  Greens were even watered during play throughout the day.

I also caddied yesterday for the Am and saw how the course was played for good players.  I was surprised how much guys were struggling.  As for the strategy of the course I have never found there to be very many hazards off the tee for the longer hitters.  But I realized yesterday that despite few fairway bunkers in play, hitting fairways are huge for getting close approaches, and if you miss the fairway there is always a "dead" side. A few examples are 2 to the right, 3 to the right, 4 left, 7 left, 10 right.  Even with the rough not too penal and the generous green openings, guys couldn't get the ball close to the pin from the rough.

Kevin - no need to defend the course setup. I thought the conditioning was quite good given the awful heat and humidity we have had this year. The 5th and 6th greens were better than last year. The fairways were perfect. And while the greens weren't as fast as I have seen them at Camargo they were a decent speed.

You are right that hitting the fairwway is a must to have the confidence to attack the flag with those deep bunkers awaiting a missed played shot. And think the angle of some of the fairways and how they are draped over the rolling ground make them difficult to hit. For example I find 14 quite difficult to hit. If hit it left of the fairway you run into the fescue very quickly. Consequently it is very easy to hit it in the right rough. And on holes like 4 and 10 you have to work the ball to keep it in the fairway, especially the long hitters.

JLahrman - I only know Rob a very little bit since we went to the same high school but are about 10 years apary. The only time I have played with him was the playoff at the local Mid-Am qualifier in 2007. I beat him to make the Mid-Am that year. Like you I take great pride in that because he is a phenomenal golfer. I'd love to play a full round or two with him to see how he works his way around a course.

[BCrosby]

Steve -

My club in Atlanta hosted the state amateur three weeks ago. I was very surprised at the effect pin positions had on scoring. It was almost a stroke on one hole. On another it was more than a half stroke.  Those dramatic effects were predicated on well conceived greenside hazards on those holes. Lots of players who didn't play the angles paid the price. Fascinating to watch. It was almost as if the architecture mattered.  

I take it that by "elite" you mean crazy, low earth orbit long.

Bob



  

[Jason Topp]

Steve:

I play at a similar course in terms of length and challenge and a par of 70.  1 under qualified for the US Am the last time qualifying was held there.

I think of the distance issue not so much in terms of difficulty but in terms of the type of shots required of the player.  The problem with long distances with modern equipment is that the par fours become tee shot (often with less than driver)/wedge challenge.  On our course, guys who hit it a long way can hit wedge on all 12 of the par fours provided they can put a tee ball in play. Real long guys can hit wedge on one of the par fives if they get over the crest of a big slope.  

I think there is substance to the cliche that a course should test all clubs in the bag.  It is possible for a short course to do that with par 3's and 5's but still pretty difficult for that level of player.

What is your take on that issue in light of your experiences?

[Kevin Jackson]

Maybe "defend" wasn't the right word.  I thought all things considered it was in very good shape sans the 11th green.  But then again there were 2 aces on 11 yesterday, so maybe I was missing something.

Steve: a little OT, but did you get a yardage book? If so, what did you think of it?

[JMEvensky]

One rarely mentioned thing about higher than expected qualifying scores--the heat.Not only does it stress the golf course,it stresses the players.Walking 36 in 95* heat is tough on anyone.The mind and body won't always cooperate.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steve,

I agree with your conclusions.  I concluded the same thing many, many years ago.

[David Egan]

Steve Kline, David Egan, Chris Sabo. Some serious celebrities in the field!

I was there last year.  Camargo is awesome.  I really want to make that an annual trip.

[Steve Kline]

Steve:

I play at a similar course in terms of length and challenge and a par of 70.  1 under qualified for the US Am the last time qualifying was held there.

I think of the distance issue not so much in terms of difficulty but in terms of the type of shots required of the player.  The problem with long distances with modern equipment is that the par fours become tee shot (often with less than driver)/wedge challenge.  On our course, guys who hit it a long way can hit wedge on all 12 of the par fours provided they can put a tee ball in play. Real long guys can hit wedge on one of the par fives if they get over the crest of a big slope.  

I think there is substance to the cliche that a course should test all clubs in the bag.  It is possible for a short course to do that with par 3's and 5's but still pretty difficult for that level of player.

What is your take on that issue in light of your experiences?

I was probably one of the shorter hitters in the field. Here is what i hit into each for the first and the second round.

1 - L, L
2 - 3W, H (going for the green)
3 - L, L
4 - 7, 7
5 - 6, 6
6 - 9, 8
7 - 8, G
8 - H, H
9 - 9, G
10 - 6, 7
11 - P, P
12 - N/A, 7
13 - 8, P
14 - S, S
15 - 4, 5
16 - 8, 9
17 - L, L (laid up both times)
18 - P, G

I never hit more than a 6 iron into a par four, but I think I hit every club in my bag to the green at some point. Unless the course is ridiculously long, this has been a pretty normal list of clubs hit to greens. So, I have never hit much more than a 6 iron into a par 4. Again I am not overly long, especially at the top amateur level. Certainly the longer players are hitting almost nothing but wedges if they hit driver all day. But most of those are not htting a lot of fairways and with difficult pin placements it is hard to get those wedges close enough for a birdie. If they were all shooting under par all the time I would have more of a problem.

[Steve Kline]

Maybe "defend" wasn't the right word.  I thought all things considered it was in very good shape sans the 11th green.  But then again there were 2 aces on 11 yesterday, so maybe I was missing something.

Steve: a little OT, but did you get a yardage book? If so, what did you think of it?

I did not get a yardage book but some of the guys I played with did.

[Steve Kline]

One rarely mentioned thing about higher than expected qualifying scores--the heat.Not only does it stress the golf course,it stresses the players.Walking 36 in 95* heat is tough on anyone.The mind and body won't always cooperate.

Pansies - I carried my own bag yesterday and a lot of those guys playing are close to half my age.

[Bill_McBride]

One rarely mentioned thing about higher than expected qualifying scores--the heat.Not only does it stress the golf course,it stresses the players.Walking 36 in 95* heat is tough on anyone.The mind and body won't always cooperate.

Pansies - I carried my own bag yesterday and a lot of those guys playing are close to half my age.

We have a top senior amateur at our club, Dr. A. B. Sisco, who has played in several British Senior Amateurs and two U. S. Senior Opens.  He walked and carried his bag both days.  Shot 69 the first day, 83 the second.  Said his legs wore out on #15 & 16 where he hit three OB.  Walking and packing is tough in this kind of weather.   

[Bill Brightly]

I have never played Carmargo, but I have "studied it from afar" and played many MacRaynors. Here are the lessons that I think can be learned:

1) Raynor built great playing fields for the game of golf.
2) Show an elite player a bunker that he knows he can't save par from, and you will get his attention and change his pre-shot focus.
3) Multi-tiered greens are an EXCELLENT way to test iron play of the best players.
4) numbers 2 and 3 above annoy the hell out of "Bomb and Gouge" players.

[Kevin Jackson]

Bill: If your points are specific to Camargo, 11 (short) and 16 (maiden/plateau) are the only multi-tiered greens on the course.  I agree they require more exacting iron play, but for the most part the greens just have a dominant tilt.


I don't know if it has ever been discussed, but can very large greens be tougher to hit approaches to?  I'm thinking because the target is so big it is hard to get a good sense of distance/width of your target and therefore more players end up in the center of the green.  Whereas in a smaller green, you don't have the deception of the large target area and approaches end up closer to the pin.  From my own experience this year, I've gotten so used to playing Camargo that in the handful of times I've played elsewhere I've hit more greens (despite being smaller) and subsequently had shorter distances to the hole.  As an example, say I average 25ft. first putt on a 10k sq.ft. green at Camargo, but average 15ft. first putt on a 6k sq. ft. green elsewhere.  Is there any validity in this?