[George Pazin]

Important, or not? Does it depend on your end goal?

The group appreciates a certain type of architecture--and in fairness I tend to lean that way myself. The three courses that I gave *** to included two Doaks (Rock Creek and Pac Dunes) and one C&C (Bandon Trails). However, this group would add more value IMO if it had a broader base instead of focusing a large percentage of its collective energy into a few architects and their work. Those folks going to Rock Creek without seeing Gozzer Ranch (assuming the opportunity exists of course) make a huge mistake.

This quote, well thought-out wisdom from Andy, caught my eye in the Top Ten Moderns threads. Basically, for me, I really disagree with it.

I'll share my reasons later, I'd rather hear what you think first.

[Jud_T]

George,

This goes to my point in the bias thread about preselection bias.  Life is too short to play lousy golf courses, most of us know what suits our tastes and game and choose where to play accordingly.  Let's face it, many of us would make a special trip to play Rock Creek but would probably only play Gozzer if we were going to be in the area and could gain access.  Andy has a valid point IMO...

[Terry Lavin]

There's a lot of truth in Andy's statement, in my opinion.  To me, there's little doubt that there's a pretty lethal combination of fanboy/groupthink that goes on hereabouts.  And, no, I'm not immune to it either.  As the most recent evidence, I'd point to the recent Ballyneal photo thread and the multi-page offering about the second course at Dismal River.  The on-board salivating at the prospect of another Doak in the sand hills is almost too much for gca fanboys to handle, so we have people already annointing the soon-to-come course as being on better land and in better hands than Sand Hills.  I'm a Doakie like many others, but I'll wait and see.  As for Ballyneal, we might as well have a permanent sticky thread of visual and verbal hyperbole about Ballyneal.  Did we really need to see another 18 hole photofest with glowing commentary after so many other platitudes being bandied about for the past couple years.

I haven't played Ballyneal or DR, which is a correctable deficit in my golf resume.  Ballyneal, in particular, seems to be my cup of tea and the new course at DR is intriguing.  But the point is that the bandwagon for the next minimalist offering is fairly overflowing on this site.  I do think that there is a risk of minimalism jumping the proverbial shark, as these courses tend to visually blend into each other.  They all look great, but don't they all look the same to you?  Truthfully, sometimes they do look as alike as some of those Fazio cookie cutter jobs that people love to hate here.  In fact, it might be a fun exercise to put up some minimalist photos of holes, without identification and see how many people can properly identify what they're looking at.

Back to Andy's point, which I think is opening yourself into different styles of architecture.  I think that is a necessary item in the critical mindset of us fake critics on gca, because if you really only like one type of golf course, what do you really know?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have not played either Rock Creek or Gozzer Ranch. I do, however plan to go next summer.  I wouldn't think of playing one and not the other.  Why would you skip Gozzer?  I'd go back and play Black Rock again. I agree with Andy, it is good to continually broaden our base of courses played.

[Jud_T]

Tommy,

But which course is pushing you to make the trip.  Please don't say you are jonesing to see both equally....

[SL_Solow]

Jud,  what difference does it make as to which course is the motivator?  It is understandable that the chance to play a course that has outstanding reviews from people one respects will draw more interest than others particularly given the cost intime and money involved.  However, in order to appreciate the various styles and approaches available to architects, those who wish to have a better understanding need to see as many courses as we can.  That of course will be limited by personal circumstances,e.g. available time and money.  That is one of the reasons we rely on professional critics who are paid to take the time and review courses in the same way we read movie reviews.  But regardless of our personal prefernces, we should withhold judgment until a course is built and a reasonable number of people have played it.

[Jud_T]

Shel,

Just goes to my preselection bias point.  Sure we'll check out other courses when we're in the area, but the hurdle to having a body cavity search at TSA and humping your clubs cross country is fairly high and many here will only do it to see certain GCA's work, for better or worse...

[Phil McDade]

I was struck, playing a round on the Eden in St. Andrews with two gentlemen from the town, when they expressed curiousity of my plans the next day -- a round at Crail Balcomie. They'd never played it!

I similarly have run into people who have raved about Machrihanish (rightfully so), but never took the 20 minute trip further south to get in a two-hour round at Dunaverty.

I think in both cases, those who bypass the less-well-known course are missing out on something -- sometimes, a lot.

[Kalen Braley]

George,

I agree 100% with Andy on this one and am certainly interested in hearing where he's off on this one.

As for those who may be implying that Gozzer Ranch is somehow not much of a course, this is pure crazy talk.  It debuted at #70 on Golf Mags top 100 in the US and is deserving of every last bit of that...its top notch. 

When one considers the US has over 20,000 golf courses...one that is in the top 100, is a 99.99 Percentile course.  And then the thought of some someone wanting to skip it makes me scratch my head.

Its like refusing tickets for the Super Bowl because the seats are 10 rows up on the 45 yard line instead of 10 rows up on the 50.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,

But which course is pushing you to make the trip.  Please don't say you are jonesing to see both equally....

Rock Creek is definitely the draw. I would probably make the trip even if there weren't other courses nearby.

[Greg Tallman]

The "chosen ones" on this site are obviously Doak and C&C. Each have 5 courses in the world Top 100, exceeded only by Pete Dye who is equally loved and hated on here.

TD & C&C's work speak for themselves though there is a bit of "flavor of the day" treatement not to mention the lovefest given Tom's significant contributions to this site.

I do have a probnelm with Jud's premise that the architect determines his interest/willingness level. Simply seems too close minded for me.

There is plenty of great golf that is not "links-like" or designed by one of two firms. That said and in Jud's defense there are likley more than enough courses that fit his bias to keep him busy for several years... just would have sounded more PC had it been stated as "time is precious... I will continue to seek out and play those I know I will enjoy."

[John Kavanaugh]

Last year I purchased at a charity auction the right for a foresome to play Rock Creek sometime before July 31, 2011.  It has since expired unused.  If I had the means to access and play Gozzer Ranch and Black Rock as a professional critic I doubt I would have wasted my paid for opportunity.  It should be obvious that my problems surrounding raters is mired deep in jealousy.  You guys telling me I should broaden my horizons is like George Clooney telling me I should get more tail.  I get what I got and I ain't getting no more.

[Mike Hendren]

There are clearly two schools of thought:  1) the life's too short or alternatively resources too scarce to play other than anything that's highly regarded and a slam dunk; or 2) broaden one's horizon.   Most of us probably fall somewhere in between due to access issues.  also, there's a little wh$re in all of us when nobody's looking.

That said, how do you determine what's extraordinary without getting a good feeling for what's ordinary?   If you're going to drive all the way out to  Cle Elum, Washington to play Doak's Tumble Creek, why not set aside enough time to also play Palmer's Prospector course to see how two very different architects used the elements?  If you're going to play C&C's Talking Stick North, why not also play the underrated South course.  You won't find anywhere in this country where two more contrasting golf courses were designed and constructed next to each other.  It's architecture 101.  After playing Victoria National, take a few hours to slum around Doak's early Quail Run. 

Personally, I really need to see some work by  Stiles & Van Kleek, Tim Liddy, Stanley Thompson, George C. Thomas, Jr., Lester George,  Harry Colt, Eddie Hackett, Forrest Richardson, Willie Park, Jr., Ken Kavanaugh, Herbert Fowler, Mike Nuzzo and Walter Travis.   I'm pitching a shut-out on those guys.  (I have intentionally ommitted Fownes and Crump to avoid the appearance of trolling).  When it gets right down to it, I might not know a damned thing.

Mike

[Mike Nuzzo]

What does "add more value" mean?

Add value to the treehouse by being more diverse so more readers would enjoy its perspective?
or
Add value by promoting the favored flavors of the treehouse so more players get to taste the better flavors?
I think the better flavoring is free with the right team - it doesn't lessen the flavor for everyone else.

Cheers

[Jud_T]

Bogey,

Why would I skip an additional round on Tumble Creek to play the Prospector when I've never played a Palmer course I really liked or a Doak course I really didn't?

[Kalen Braley]

There are clearly two schools of thought:  1) the life's too short or alternatively resources too scarce to play other than anything that's highly regarded and a slam dunk; or 2) broaden one's horizon.   Most of us probably fall somewhere in between due to access issues.  also, there's a little wh$re in all of us when nobody's looking.

That said, how do you determine what's extraordinary without getting a good feeling for what's ordinary?   If you're going to drive all the way out to  Cle Elum, Washington to play Doak's Tumble Creek, why not set aside enough time to also play Palmer's Prospector course to see how two very different architects used the elements?  If you're going to play C&C's Talking Stick North, why not also play the underrated South course.  You won't find anywhere in this country where two more contrasting golf courses were designed and constructed next to each other.  It's architecture 101.  After playing Victoria National, take a few hours to slum around Doak's early Quail Run. 

Personally, I really need to see some work by  Stiles & Van Kleek, Tim Liddy, Stanley Thompson, George C. Thomas, Jr., Lester George,  Harry Colt, Eddie Hackett, Forrest Richardson, Willie Park, Jr., Ken Kavanaugh, Herbert Fowler, Mike Nuzzo and Walter Travis.   I'm pitching a shut-out on those guys.  (I have intentionally ommitted Fownes and Crump to avoid the appearance of trolling).  When it gets right down to it, I might not know a damned thing.

Mike

Bogey,

Thats a big +1.  After all, variety is the spice of life....

I can give two good examples of exactly this from that list of architects that you're currently batting .000 on.

The 1st example is Forrest Richardson's "The Hideout" which is in a remote location of Utah.  I love the Moab area as it has something for everyone...and on a trip down there a few years ago, I took a side detour to see The Hideout.  Sure its no world beater, and it was a 6-7 hour detour from time spent in Moab, but it was a fun/charming/quirky little course and am glad I took the effort to go see it. 

On a trip to Colorado a few years back, I was in town to play some of the well known courses like Sanctuary, Ballyneal, etc.  However on the day I flew in, I had a few hours to kill so I played the nearby Murphy Creek by Ken Kavanaugh.  I was more than pleasantly surprised at what I found there.  Once again, it'll never scare any Top 100 list, but just a very well done and interesting track with loads of good holes.

These little side trips to lesser known courses, often result in many of the best moments/experiences on golf trips and I enjoy working them in to the schedule.

[Mike Hendren]

I would like to stop and thank Richard Choi for inviting me to join him at Sahalee for a round he purchased at a charity auction.  Given the Ted Robinson and Sahalee bashing on this web-site I otherwise would have missed out on a wonderful walk in the park on a good golf course in a beautiful indigenous setting.  My horizons were indeed broadened and there are worse ways to spend four hours than spanking the golf ball around in the company of my friend Rich.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

Bogey,

Why would I skip an additional round on Tumble Creek to play the Prospector when I've never played a Palmer course I really liked or a Doak course I really didn't?

While obviously a rhetorical question, the answer is "YOU wouldn't."  I'm okay with that and frankly am embarrassed to admit that I only play golf any more for the architecture and to a lesser extent the fellowship (I still prefer playing alone for the most part).

Mike

[David Kelly]

I'm pitching a shut-out on those guys.  (I have intentionally ommitted Fownes and Crump to avoid the appearance of trolling). 

Thereby engaging in crypto-trolling.

Just kidding.

[Mike Hendren]

I'm pitching a shut-out on those guys.  (I have intentionally ommitted Fownes and Crump to avoid the appearance of trolling). 

Thereby engaging in crypto-trolling.

Just kidding.

Dumb like a fox?  I wish I was that smart.  

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Ronald Montesano]

A. We are not going to change each other's minds/personalities/approaches at this late stage in our lives...

2. The young'uns on GCA should take what each of us writes with a grain of salt and have the cojones to determine what they like best...

C. I agree with Greg, Bogie and others in that I don't need to play what I or someone else considers a top-ten golf course. I don't see life as being too short to play something less than a Tigerman (sorry, Jud, but you're the best arguer for this point of view) Select course.

4. I learned in Williamsburg that not all Strantz are created/kept up equal(ly), so I stopped trying to collect all works from each artist...

E. If folks confuse the validity of Tom Doak's architecture with his contributions to this site, they haven't grown up...

6. The rich get richer applies to Doak, C&C and Hanse (have I missed any?) while the poor need to dig opps out of the dirt...

G. Bogie, thanks for your comment on Sahalee...I fall into that trap myself, reminding me I still have some growing up to do...

8. What some on this site consider mediocre courses fall into the category of gateway drugs for GCA-they get people thinking...

I. On Wednesday this, I play Coudersport and St. Bonaventure U. courses...not for the grandeur, but for the quirk, the subtle, the whacky, the challenge...

[Matt Kardash]

I would say I think people should broaden their scope on what makes a good golf course. When I see a pic posted of a course I automatically know if it will be loved or hated by the masses here. That type of tribalism is annoying to me.

[David Kelly]

To each his own but there is a lot to be said for having a wide breadth of experience so as to be able to recognize the good and great course and separate them from the average.  On my trip to Rock Creek a few years ago I managed to also fit in Nicklaus's Old Works, Schmidt-Curley's Canyon River, Graves' Buffalo Hill and the old course up in Whitefish.  The one course I tried to access as a rater - Stock Farm - basically told me to get lost.

Having said that, I am old now and really want to spend my time playing as many good and great courses as I can.  

[Mac Plumart]

I saw Andy's quote on the other thread and it struck me as well.  I think there are two schools of thought...

#1--If making such a long trip, why not hit a few quality courses in the area to make it worth your while.  I've done this many times and enjoy myself very much.

#2--however, I also put together a group to get out to see Rock Creek early this year.  When talking with a few of the guys, we decided to only see Rock Creek and play it multiple times.  This way, we got to know it just a bit deeper than we would have if we course hopped from one to the other.

I see both points of view...I think the second approach is better, if you have all the time and money in the world.  But the first approach might be the most practical for most of us with limited time and money.

[Jud_T]

You guys can continue to pat yourselves on the back for all your supposed impartiality and search for breadth of experience.  We'll see who's the first to sign up for the GCA outings at Cabot, Streamsong or Dismal Deuce....

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()