Golf Mag Top 100 US & World - 2011

[Jim Colton]

  I just think tradition plays too big of a role in the rankings.

  Anthony

What about Diamonte? No tradition there, in fact I am surprised that enough people have even played this course to get it ranked.

Diamante hosted no fewer than 25 panelists from January through April many of which made it over to our place during their trip.

Excuse my ignorance of the process, but was Diamante comping all travel expenses to get that many panelists down in such a short amount of time? Are they allowed to do stuff like that?  That's a large proportion of the 100 or so panelists to come through in a 3-month window. I seem to recall a similar boondoggle for visitors to Nine Bridges the last time around.

[Sean_A]

I think Machrihanish, TEC, Lytham and Troon do not belong.  Cruden Bay and Porthcawl are highly suspect.  

No brainers missed out are St Enodoc, Prestwick and Rye.  Others which are better than the above are Enniscrone, The Island, Portstewart, Woking, St Georges Hill and Deal.

Ciao

[Greg Tallman]

  I just think tradition plays too big of a role in the rankings.

  Anthony

Excuse my ignorance of the process, but was Diamante comping all travel expenses to get that may panelists down in such a short amount of time? Are they allowed to do stuff like that?  That's a large proportion of the 100 or so panelists to come through in a 3-month window. I seem to recall a similar boondoggle for visitors to Nine Bridges the last time around.

What about Diamonte? No tradition there, in fact I am surprised that enough people have even played this course to get it ranked.

Diamante hosted no fewer than 25 panelists from January through April many of which made it over to our place during their trip.

Jim,

I do not know what the particulars were on their tavel and such, just that that many folks made it down to see the place and we ended up seeing most of them.

[Adam Clayman]

It was once mentioned that when one travels a great distance to see a course, they are unlikely to give it a poor rating.

Could this explain why American panelists over rate the foreign, and why foreign panelists over rate the US?

[jkinney]

IMO, Shinnecock is the best pure test of golf and should therefore be ranked #1. I've played those above Shinny numerous times, and I don't think there as good. Period.

[Anthony Gray]

  I just think tradition plays too big of a role in the rankings.

  Anthony

What about Diamonte? No tradition there, in fact I am surprised that enough people have even played this course to get it ranked.

  Should be higher.

  Anthony

[Jud_T]

Well at least it's better than Golf Digest...Still prefer Golfweek though...

[John Kavanaugh]

Excuse my ignorance of the process, but was Diamante comping all travel expenses to get that many panelists down in such a short amount of time? Are they allowed to do stuff like that?  That's a large proportion of the 100 or so panelists to come through in a 3-month window. I seem to recall a similar boondoggle for visitors to Nine Bridges the last time around.

Have you looked at who is on the Golf Magazine panel?  Remember when Arnold Palmer paid for at round at the Bandon Resort and it made the national news.  Come on, famous people get comped.  Golf Magazine doesn't have to hold rater camps or sell tee shirts so they can pick their raters out of a line up.  A majority of Golf Mag raters are professionals in the industry that most courses would pay to show up if they were raters or not.

[Kevin Pallier]

Pebble Beach # 7 (again)   

[Michael George]

Does anyone else cringe everytime they see Trump National and Trump International on the top US list?  

In general, I think Golf Magazine does a good job with their rankings and rightfully include courses like Yale that don't show up on Golf Digest's rankings.

However, there are a couple of courses that continually show up on this list that I simply don't think warrant top 100 status.  In addition to the Trump courses, I don't think Colonial, World Woods or Cog Hill warrant top 100 in the US status.  Meanwhile, I think Butler National and Laurel Valley definitely deserve top 100 status.  

In any list of panelists, you are going to have bias, although I don't think that it is intentional.  With this list, I think there is an unintentional bias against Nicklaus for some reason.  I won't defend him as an architect in general, but Castle Pines and Shoal Creek deserve at least to be in the top 100 in the US and Dismal River should at least be in the conversation.

[Jim Nugent]

"What is the point system criteria"

Anthony G. -

There is a brief description of the point system on the magazine's website.

Here is a link: http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,2086053,00.html  

DT

There is no point system per se as Anthony was suggesting. They do not rate diffculty, aesthetics... etc numerically but are free to consider whatever they like in determining where the course fits in their mind:
1-3 (100 points)
4-10 (85)
11-25 (70)
26-50 (60)
51-75 (50)
76-100 (40)
101-150 (30)
151-200 (20)
210-250 (10)
251+ (0)
Remove from ballot (-10)

At least that was the system in 2009

Pine Valley's score was 95.99.  Meaning over 70% of all who ranked it place it among the top 3 in the world. 

[jonathan_becker]

Even though I like the course, Sawgrass is always ranked too high imo.  However, some of it's original design elements probably factor into this.

[Jim Colton]

"What is the point system criteria"

Anthony G. -

There is a brief description of the point system on the magazine's website.

Here is a link: http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,2086053,00.html  

DT

There is no point system per se as Anthony was suggesting. They do not rate diffculty, aesthetics... etc numerically but are free to consider whatever they like in determining where the course fits in their mind:
1-3 (100 points)
4-10 (85)
11-25 (70)
26-50 (60)
51-75 (50)
76-100 (40)
101-150 (30)
151-200 (20)
210-250 (10)
251+ (0)
Remove from ballot (-10)

At least that was the system in 2009

Pine Valley's score was 95.99.  Meaning over 70% of all who ranked it place it among the top 3 in the world. 

Sounds about right, although I did play with an Oakmont member and Golfweek panelist last year who chastised a GCAer for claiming PV was the best course he had ever played. "Pine Valley's maybe Top 10," he said.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a link to the panelists: http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,2086055,00.html

I once asked Joe why the hell he stole Tuco from Golfweek.  He gave me a perfectly acceptable response.  I do admire Golf Magazine for not being embarrassed to post the list of their rater corps. 

[Don Hyslop]

With all the work Ian has been putting into Highland Links, I was somewhat surprised that this apparently hasn't been reflected in the rankings.

[Tom_Doak]

Here is a link to the panelists: http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,2086055,00.html

I once asked Joe why the hell he stole Tuco from Golfweek.  He gave me a perfectly acceptable response.  I do admire Golf Magazine for not being embarrassed to post the list of their rater corps. 

John:

I'm not sure that list of panelists justifies your earlier post about all the guys who are in the business ... there are at least 20 guys who I have no idea who they are, and another 20 who are "frequent flyers" rather than actually in the golf business.  I think they are really missing out not having more pros participate ... back in the day I managed to coax ballots out of Ballesteros, Nicklaus, Norman, Crenshaw, and several others.  I don't think their opinion should be the last word, but there aren't many great players on the panel anymore.

[Tom_Doak]

With all the work Ian has been putting into Highland Links, I was somewhat surprised that this apparently hasn't been reflected in the rankings.

Don Hyslop:

I can't even vote on Highlands Links anymore, because it's been twenty years [actually 23 or 24] since I was last there.  I suspect that is true for a lot of panelists who vote on it, that they last saw it before Ian did anything.  Perhaps those who travel to Cabot Links will see it again and mark it based on current form.

[Greg Tallman]

Tom,

If, in general, tour caliber players are not good designers why would you want more of them rating the best courses in the world? Just curious.

[Leo Barber]

From downunder I am disappointed yet again to see Victoria and Paraparaumu Beach on the sidelines.  RM East regardless of the tinkering is still a superb track and would eat half of those listed based on its great holes alone.  Great to see Barnbougle sneak a few spots but confused by the elevation of some of the newer tracks.  Hard sometimes for tradition to fight the might of the marketing dollar of some of these newbies striving for recognition

[Paul Jones]

Which courses dropped off the US List?

[Sev K-H Keil]

Quite amazing how many raters have already been to the newly reopened Pinehurst No. 2 to move it up a notch in both rankings...

[Sean Leary]

Quite amazing how many raters have already been to the newly reopened Pinehurst No. 2 to move it up a notch in both rankings...

LACC as well...

[jkinney]

I suspect that LACC North will move into the second ten in the next ranking. Hanse's restoration is that good.

[Sean Leary]

IMO, Shinnecock is the best pure test of golf and should therefore be ranked #1. I've played those above Shinny numerous times, and I don't think there as good. Period.

I have played all above it too, except Augusta(which I have walked). I only walked Shinnecock during the 04 Open, but Shinnecock is the only course I have seen that might be as good or better than Pine Valley.

[jkinney]

Sean - The USGA's screw-up on Sunday in '04 notwithstanding, the competitors in all three of the modern day Opens at Shinny ('86, '95 and '04) all thought it was sensational. They LOVED playing there. Johnny Miller has often said that the Open should alternate between Shinny & Pebble. I'd add Oakmont to that rota - but that's it. Only three people total broke par for 72 holes over those three Opens.

What makes Shinny so great is not just the exquisite design of each hole, it's also the triangular nature of the routing (as with Muirfield, from which Flynn must have gained inspiration). The wind is played from every direction, and every club in the bag is used in numerous ways. Pine Valley and Cypress are wonderful, but I 'm convinced that Shinny is the hardest pure and fair test of golf in the world - which are my criteria for true greatness.