Ballyneal G&HC, Holyoke, CO (Doak) - A Photo Tour - Hole 17 Posted

[Mark Saltzman]

I think the right side landing area is too small. Plus the shot from the left side if the fairway is not that bad. I think I like 12, 13, and 17 better on the back.

Steve,

I agree the landing area is probably too small, though I found the blind approach from the valley to be quite difficult. 

In my first round I was told to aim over the bunker and pulled it into the valley.  In my second round I nailed my tee shot dead on the line I was aiming and when I walked by the bunker I was amazed at how small was the area of fairway I was aiming at.  Sure, the fairway there slopes a little to the left which will help borderline shots kick toward the fairway, but there really isn't much room to miss.  And this is especially the case if carrying the bunker is an issue (as it was for me), and even more so if you don't find the approach from the valley all that tough. 

All of this seems to me to add up to an imbalanced risk/reward equation, but a big part of it is how difficult you find the approach from the bowl.

[Steve Kline]

I think I have been succesful hitting the upper right fairway 1 out of 10 times and I have tried every time.

[Brad Isaacs]

Learning to trust that shot from down in the hole is very hard for me as well and I think with enough reps you get used to it. Once you get used to it, the hole is not as hard.  I like most of the other holes on the back 9 better as well. The front 9 sells you on the course but the back 9 grows on you.........

[Tom_Doak]

I think the right side landing area is too small. Plus the shot from the left side if the fairway is not that bad. I think I like 12, 13, and 17 better on the back.

Steve,

I agree the landing area is probably too small, though I found the blind approach from the valley to be quite difficult. 

In my first round I was told to aim over the bunker and pulled it into the valley.  In my second round I nailed my tee shot dead on the line I was aiming and when I walked by the bunker I was amazed at how small was the area of fairway I was aiming at.  Sure, the fairway there slopes a little to the left which will help borderline shots kick toward the fairway, but there really isn't much room to miss.  And this is especially the case if carrying the bunker is an issue (as it was for me), and even more so if you don't find the approach from the valley all that tough. 

All of this seems to me to add up to an imbalanced risk/reward equation, but a big part of it is how difficult you find the approach from the bowl.

That's not an IMBALANCED risk/reward equation.  It's just a balance you don't like! 

[Jeff Tang]

I wouldn't say the 10th is one of my favorite holes on the back but that's probably more due to the difficulty of the hole and the lack of success I've had there more than anything. As previously mentioned the tee shot is very difficult to get into the correct position and then the second shot is very tough to get close to any flag since the green runs away from you and you're usually coming in there with a longer club. I've been over this green a ton in two, something I don't normally see on a long par 4.

From the tippy tips this hole is simply a beast, especially if there is any hurting wind at all. And that fairway bunker on the right is one of the gnarliest you will see anywhere.

This is probably one of the coolest looking holes on the course and may look even better looking from behind the green back up the fairway towards the clubhouse.

I have had some success stopping the ball on the green using the slope up on the left of the green which can kill the speed of your shot and then funnel the ball toward the center of the green but this is a very tough shot to get just right and the times I've done it were probably more due to luck from a slightly pulled shot than skill.

[Mike Hogan]

A close-up of the bunker on the corner.


The slope to the left of green.

[Kalen Braley]

I would agree with the general sentiment.  Its not one of the my favorite holes on the back 9 or the course for that matter despite it having some nice/interesting visuals on both the tee shot and approach in.

Factor in its length and the difficulty of anything that misses the fairway andits a brute of hole where you are just praying to save par and move on to #11.

My back 9 faves are 12, 13, 15, and 16.

[JNC Lyon]

I think 10 is a classic dogleg hole.  The bunker on the inside of the dogleg is focal point, with the golfer trying to get as close as possible to gain the best angle in.  The farther left one goes (as is the tendency off the tee), the more difficult the second shot becomes.  The fairway bunker and the green are beautifully constructed.  The one caveat is that the reverse-camber fairway, while effective, makes the tee shot extremely difficult.  It would be nice if there was more a little more room to the left, to make a bailout left more appealing.

Even so, 10 is one of my favorites on the back nine.  13 is my number one fave, and I really like the shelf green at 14, the greensite at 12, and the monster par three at 15, but 10 is second or third behind 13 or maybe 12.

[Jim Tang]

I've found the best shot for the 2nd from the blind left side is a knock down shot.  The first dozen or so times I played #10 I tried flying the ball to the hole and got into the bunkers on the right, or was long.  Those two spots are bad and I was punished.

Since then, the last have dozen times or so, I've played knock down shots 40 yards short of the green (I imagine 40 yards short since I can't see the ball land) and have had a lot more success.  The ball is either on the green, or, just short.  Short of #10 is not a bad spot.

#10 is also one of those holes on the course where it has a completely different feel and difficulty level if you play it from the way, way, way back tee.

[Mark Saltzman]

I think the right side landing area is too small. Plus the shot from the left side if the fairway is not that bad. I think I like 12, 13, and 17 better on the back.

Steve,

I agree the landing area is probably too small, though I found the blind approach from the valley to be quite difficult. 

In my first round I was told to aim over the bunker and pulled it into the valley.  In my second round I nailed my tee shot dead on the line I was aiming and when I walked by the bunker I was amazed at how small was the area of fairway I was aiming at.  Sure, the fairway there slopes a little to the left which will help borderline shots kick toward the fairway, but there really isn't much room to miss.  And this is especially the case if carrying the bunker is an issue (as it was for me), and even more so if you don't find the approach from the valley all that tough. 

All of this seems to me to add up to an imbalanced risk/reward equation, but a big part of it is how difficult you find the approach from the bowl.

That's not an IMBALANCED risk/reward equation.  It's just a balance you don't like! 

Thinking further on this, I think that an imbalanced risk/reward equation would cause one not to take on the risk, yet I attempted to find this portion of fairway in each of my 5 rounds and Steve Kline attempted it in each of his 10 rounds.

Either we're both risk-loving fools seeking some high-beta shots, or I've got my equation wrong.

For those that have played Ballyneal many times, do you try for the small portion of fairway, or is the play the conservative route?

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

The more I think about it, the more #10 doesn't seem as unreasonable.  The 3 previous holes, 7-9 are all bird opportunities, so it seems like a really tough par proposition is in order on #10.  After all, the hole is a pretty simple bogey when playing conservative off the tee as compared to being a hard par if you play it for 4 strokes.

[Jim Colton]

Mark,

I don't think anybody tries for the little part of the fairway. The reward is the neck of flat fairway to the right of the far bunkers. I think the fairway just past the bunker is meant to help feed a slight right to left shot into that neck. It's a glorious spot to be, even if you're then faced with a terrifying 100 yard shot with everything racing away from you. Still, it's a better option than a long, blind shot from the bowl.

I imagine you always try to carry the bunker because even if you miss, you're likely going to be in the bowl anyways. That seems like a better trade-off than just plopping one down there. From the back tees, it's a completely different story. There a ball short of the ball (just left of the bunker) might have an advantag over one that trickles into the bowl. We rarely play back there so I'm not as familiar with it.

[Jim Tang]

I typically play that hole pretty conservatively, but then, I play pretty conservately most of the time.  As already stated by Kalen, if you play conservatively, the hole is an easy bogey, or, a hard par.

I think # 10 is dangerous.  If you play it too aggressively, you can make a 7 or 8 real quick and get your back 9 off to a poor start.  I just sort of tip toe around that hole and then look for scoring opportunities elsewhere.

[Scott Szabo]

We typically play the hole from the 475 yard tee and I lay up short of the bunker on the right and have a fairly straight forward approach from about 200-210 out.  I play it about 40 yards short and bounce it in and have quite a bit of success with that.  I don't have the game to play to the area over the bunker, so its not even an option for me.

[Mark Saltzman]

We typically play the hole from the 475 yard tee and I lay up short of the bunker on the right and have a fairly straight forward approach from about 200-210 out.  I play it about 40 yards short and bounce it in and have quite a bit of success with that.  I don't have the game to play to the area over the bunker, so its not even an option for me.

Scott,

Do you recall what tee we played it from?  As you are longer than I, there is no way I could make the carry and you could not.  I remember my caddie telling me the play was over the bunker in both of the first two rounds I played at Ballyneal.

I thought it was from about 440.

[Scott Szabo]

Mark, there are a couple tees in the 420-440 range.  I don't remember which we played. 

[Brandon Urban]

I really enjoyed #10. It just seemed to be one of those tees that I stood on and felt comfortable. I think I landed on the upper fairway three times on my trip. The funny part is I enjoyed the blind shot from the bowl just as much as the little wedge shot from the top. It was always fun to think you hit a bad shot and have it be good but, of course, most of the time it was the complete opposite!
10 is not my favorite, but I think it is a great start to a really fun and tough back nine.

[Scott Szabo]

Mark, also keep in mind that I have a ball flight at times that resembles Billy Casper, so hitting that area and staying there is difficult for me. 

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 11: Par 3, 200 Yards

A strong one-shotter to a high plateau green. NEVER miss left of the green, as there is a 20-foot drop on that side. This is the only green where I ran the bulldozer myself, so you can blame me if you misread the putt




From the back tee, the greenside bunkers change from being fronting bunkers to bunkers that protect the right side of the green.  From this angle, the massive fall-off on the left side of the green is much more in play.  Could this be penal design from Mr. Doak?  Don't miss right and don't miss left.






As one moves up from the back tees, one also moves to the right.  One could even play from the edge of the 10th green, playing as a 130 yard shot straight up and over the bunkers.




Kyle Henderson's photo taken from the 16th shows the depth of the run-off on the left side of the 11th green.  My caddie was either really good or really bad since he didn't tell me about the run-off and I had no idea it was even there.  It would seem from the pictures that is a really bad spot to be, especially since the green slopes away on the recovery shot, but I am happy to say I don't have any personal experience with the shot.





This photo taken from the Ballyneal website shows the significant internal contouring and slope on the 11th green.  While it does not have some of the rollercoaster-like slopes of greens like 8 and 9, this was one of my favorite greens on the course.  Good work on that bulldozer, Tom!

[Steve Kline]

I love the flexibility of this hole. I've played from every tee and from just off the 10th green. The hole works really well from every spot. After playing the other holes the green seems flat but is not.

[Scott Szabo]

The left side really isn't that bad.  I'm 1 for 1 in saving par from that area 

[Mark Saltzman]

The left side really isn't that bad.  I'm 1 for 1 in saving par from that area 

Scott,

Even with the winking emoticon, I have no memory of your supposed par-saving efforts. 

While left may not be bad, I can explain in detail how easy it is to make 4 from the right.

[John Kirk]

This green is quite sharply sloped from back down to the front, more than it appears.  Putts to the back are significantly uphill, and vice versa.  One of my favorite par threes on the course.  It often plays into the wind, making low flighted mid to long irons the choice here.  The little pot buners often come into play in a variety of ways.

[Scott Szabo]

Mark, my only visit to the left side of 11 resulted in an up and down against the dynamic duo of Colton-Halliday that kept the momentum of the match from shifting even further to the left!

[Doug Wright]

The left side really isn't that bad.  I'm 1 for 1 in saving par from that area 

I think the left side of 11 used to be nastier than it is now. If I recall correctly the grassy area wasn't there originally or wasn't as large.