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JNC Lyon

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Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2011, 09:08:24 PM »
I see the front nine at Ballyneal as a crescendo.  1 and 2 are solid holes, but I wouldn't call either of them great.  3 is where the buildup starts.  I loved this downhiller because it is very different for a short one-shotter.  The green has several yards of fairway in front of it, gathers from the left and right, and slopes away from the player.  I think after getting comfortable with this hole through several plays, I would try to hit a bouncing shot into this green.  Like most holes at Ballyneal, the liberal use of short grass around the green presents an array of recovery options.  A really cool, unique par three, just as the course is picking up momentum.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2011, 12:16:25 AM »
This is the only course I can think of that I have played where I literally gush over every hole.  I can't think of a bad thing to say about #3.  I look forward to it so much after putting out on #2.  It is interesting to me how from the short shot (less than 120) angles, the hole plays terribly for a ground shot.  It must be hit short or on a sideboard from the air.  But as you move back and left to the #2 green, those sideboards start to shift into backstops on the front left or back center right.  It's intimidating, sweet, and lethal.  Like a hot waitress at a beer joint.

Wyatt Halliday

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Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2011, 12:17:43 PM »
During last year's Yucca, our host had us play from just off #2 green.  It changes the hole dramatically from a rather straight forward short iron to a relatively blind 5-iron, if memory serves me correctly.  I think they tried to use their length to their advantage, as we moved waaay back every time they had the honor on the tee.  Thus, we were introduced to teeing grounds that had never been seen before.

I seem to recall this strategy not panning out.

Anthony Gray

Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2011, 12:34:07 PM »


  I like the use of the bunkers that rarely come into play. They acceentuate the "feel" of the hole. I would like to see these features used more.

  Anthony


Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2011, 11:30:21 PM »
Hole 4: Par 5, 573 Yards

Reachable in two for some players, but it will take two perfect shots.  Lesser mortals should lay back to the left side of the fairway with their second shots, unless they can chase one up to the foot of the green.




After reaching the top of the hill behind the third green, one is treated to this phenomenal view.  As my caddie said, he lets the player walk ahead on his own and loves to watch the player's reaction.  He said it's usually something like "holy sh*t, what a view!"

There is plenty of width off the tee.  The shortest line to the green is up the right, but most will be playing this as a three-shotter and the preferred line is anywhere centre or left.  Protecting the left side of the fairway is a single massive bunker.  From the 'tee' one off the back, this bunker isn't in play.  From the tips, it shouldn't really be in play as it is only about 200 yards to carry and the shot is very downhill.  But, when it's cold and there is a bit of wind into, it can be in play (eh Scott) and is a very bad spot to be.






Though the picture does not really shot it, the fairway is filled with small undulations.  The second shot is a fairly simple lay-up, but an unlucky downhill or sidehill lie in the fairway can make it significantly more difficult.

Of course, one must avoid the bunkers on the right when laying up.  There is also a large swale in the fairway short and left of those bunkers that if one finds, he will have a blind approach.  One would do well to play either left of, or over, this swale.




Two well struck shots rewards the player with a straightforward approach to this green.  A single bunker to the right and a significant false front keep the player honest, but overall this is not a difficult approach.




A look back:


JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2011, 01:02:17 AM »
ALERT! ALERT!  This is a PICTURE THREAD of a TOM DOAK course on a SANDHILLS piece of property.  There may be things in here that cause "GCA fanboys" to salivate, including native grasses, wide fairways, blow-out bunkers with FRILLY EDGES, and crumpled greens.

BEWARE: if you are not a rabid fanboy and do not sell your first-born to play the newest Doak, you might not love every photo in this thread.  In fact, you might confuse a feature in a picture with something you saw in a Sand Hills review.  This could lead to "minimalist cookie-cutter" paradigm shift, a rare disorder that causes you to put minimalist architecture in the same category as the latest Fazio shlock. VIEW AT YOUR OWN RISK!



 ;D ;D ;D
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2011, 06:01:22 AM »
I love this hole. The wide fairway and high teeing ground just beg you to take a big rip at the drive. The fairway has all kinds of movement in it making the second shot a little harder. I have been in range to go for it about half the time on this hole but have never had any success when I do. Coming a little short is not all that great because of the 8-10 foot rise to the green. However, I have not had any success laying up either. I never get the distance right on my third shot when I lay up. I think I have made on birdie on this hole in 8 or 9 rounds. While I have called the course easy this is one of the holes that I have not figured out yet and plays harder than I expect.

I also like that you get a sneak preview of the E green, which you could also play to as a very difficult par four.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2011, 07:29:18 AM »
ALERT! ALERT!  This is a PICTURE THREAD of a TOM DOAK course on a SANDHILLS piece of property.  


Patron,
 You forgot to mention that he was given free reign on the design, and collaborated with no other designer. :)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2011, 09:42:23 AM »
I had previously never suspected that the largest right hand fairway bunker on #4 was in play from the tee, but I now know that it is, and with negligible wind no less. It's incredible how the strategy differs for some people. Driver/9 iron.

(the same guy knocked it pin high 15 feet from the hole on #1 from the back tees, with minimal wind and without a single practice swing to warm up straight out of the car!)

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 3 Posted
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2011, 09:52:43 AM »


There is plenty of width off the tee.  The shortest line to the green is up the right, but most will be playing this as a three-shotter and the preferred line is anywhere centre or left.  Protecting the left side of the fairway is a single massive bunker.  From the 'tee' one off the back, this bunker isn't in play.  From the tips, it shouldn't really be in play as it is only about 200 yards to carry and the shot is very downhill.  But, when it's cold and there is a bit of wind into, it can be in play (eh Scott) and is a very bad spot to be.


You had to bring that up, didn't you. 
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2011, 09:57:32 AM »
I love this hole. The wide fairway and high teeing ground just beg you to take a big rip at the drive. The fairway has all kinds of movement in it making the second shot a little harder. I have been in range to go for it about half the time on this hole but have never had any success when I do. Coming a little short is not all that great because of the 8-10 foot rise to the green. However, I have not had any success laying up either. I never get the distance right on my third shot when I lay up. I think I have made on birdie on this hole in 8 or 9 rounds. While I have called the course easy this is one of the holes that I have not figured out yet and plays harder than I expect.

I also like that you get a sneak preview of the E green, which you could also play to as a very difficult par four.

I agree completely.  It certainly plays as the toughest par 5 in relation to scoring for me as well.  It's just out of reach for me without playing it downwind, which I haven't as of yet, and it's difficult to get the third shot close for a good look at birdie.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2011, 10:08:43 AM »
Standing on 4 tee is without a doubt one of the great "ahhh" moments in golf. Just awesome.

Do others fall for the old Jedi mind trick that 'there's no way I'm going to miss this ginormous fairway'? I have hit it to the same spot just over the hill and left of the fairway in each of my three plays, leaving a challenging, blind blast out of the native. One day I would love to have a go at this green! Drives me nuts that I continually hit it over there.


Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2011, 11:03:23 PM »
ALERT! ALERT!  This is a PICTURE THREAD of a TOM DOAK course on a SANDHILLS piece of property.  There may be things in here that cause "GCA fanboys" to salivate, including native grasses, wide fairways, blow-out bunkers with FRILLY EDGES, and crumpled greens.

BEWARE: if you are not a rabid fanboy and do not sell your first-born to play the newest Doak, you might not love every photo in this thread.  In fact, you might confuse a feature in a picture with something you saw in a Sand Hills review.  This could lead to "minimalist cookie-cutter" paradigm shift, a rare disorder that causes you to put minimalist architecture in the same category as the latest Fazio shlock. VIEW AT YOUR OWN RISK!



 ;D ;D ;D


Awesome post, Patron!

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2011, 11:20:07 PM »
Hole 5: Par 3, 165 Yards

The bank at the left front of the green is the most severe hazard here. Just make sure you carry the pot bunker in front, and take your chances from the back of the green




It's amazing how a tiny bunker can define the strategy of an entire hole.  Nevermind the massive green undulations, one's primary focus must be to avoid the small bunker fronting the green.  As the italicized quote states, if you carry the bunker, you're probably going to be putting from the back of the green --- but given all of the undulations on the green, one would much prefer a putter in hand than a wedge!

The hole generally plays downwind and will be a short-iron for most, but an optional tee can be found to the left of the fourth green, making the hole play some 210 yards.  No easy task from there.

The 'teeing ground' is shaped like a "C" allowing for a variety of lengths/angles when playing the hole.

From what I could see, the green has an awesome back pin position.  The back of the green is centerred between two slopes creating a bowl and the always exciting possibility of a 1.  BUT, don't miss this pin position short!  Putts from the front of the green to the back have almost no chance of staying on the putting surface.


From right side of tee:




From left side of tee:






Bunkers left of green (from 6 tee):




Short of green:




Green:


Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2011, 02:08:05 AM »
Missing the bunker is fairly easy by playing to the right and letting the slope bring the ball on the green. Of course this doesn't help hitting at left hole locatioms. I think a hle on the right makes the hole play quite a bit easier. Someone earliwr did not seem to think much of this hole but I really like it. Usually a six or seven iron for me but lots of options on how to play the shot and a fun green to putt on.

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2011, 02:23:33 AM »
I agree, it is amazing how much influence the small bunker has on it.  The story of its creation as related by Bruce Hepner of this hole is a great one. I would love to hear what T. Doak has to say about it. The bunker not only make left right a problem but the distance a great problem.  Oh, don't forget what the wind does to you on this hole as well. I have hit sand wedge to hybrid into this hole.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2011, 08:58:50 PM »
Brad:

What has Bruce said about the fifth at Ballyneal?

Most of the hole was figured out by Brian Schneider, who suggested moving the green to its present location, and built it.  But, he didn't have anything in front, so I insisted on the little bunker, to Brian's consternation.  He thought it was "out of scale" with everything else ... but sometimes the golf trumps the aesthetics!

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2011, 09:01:01 PM »
Wasn't there a Yucca in that small bunker at one time?  I sure seem to remember there being one.

Gosh what a start in 1-4 and then this little bugger in the 5th.  Love the back left pin placement on the 5th and wished I had experienced a front pin on the 3rd.  Mitch said a front pin on the 3rd is probably if not the toughest pin on all holes, certainly one of the toughest.

Good stuff...
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2011, 09:09:15 PM »
Wasn't there a Yucca in that small bunker at one time?  I sure seem to remember there being one.

Gosh what a start in 1-4 and then this little bugger in the 5th.  Love the back left pin placement on the 5th and wished I had experienced a front pin on the 3rd.  Mitch said a front pin on the 3rd is probably if not the toughest pin on all holes, certainly one of the toughest.

Good stuff...

Really, a front pin on 3 one of the toughest? We had a grit pin there an I don't recall it being that tough. The slope left will feed balls back toward that pin. No?

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2011, 09:25:27 PM »
You should know better than to listen to anything Mitch has to say...I would say a BACK pin on 3 would be harder as it's easy to go long, and that's no good.  I've had the front pin on most of my plays and didn't find it all that difficult.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2011, 09:21:06 AM »
Just got back from Ballyneal and played my first round with hickories which was just incredible.

A couple of comments about the first few holes:  I think the green on #4 is one of the best par 5 greens I have played - just fantastic challenge for the guy going for it in two or going at it with a short iron.  Number 5 is a great par 3 with so much versatility as you can play it off the right edge of the fourth green or go as much as 20 yards left which gives you a completely different angle at the green - and that damn little bunker plays with your mind as you try to decide which side of the green you are going to try and get at the pin from including bouncing the ball off the hill to the right of the green which brings those right side bunkers into play. 

Jim Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 4 Posted
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2011, 10:29:45 AM »
Standing on 4 tee is without a doubt one of the great "ahhh" moments in golf. Just awesome.

Do others fall for the old Jedi mind trick that 'there's no way I'm going to miss this ginormous fairway'? I have hit it to the same spot just over the hill and left of the fairway in each of my three plays, leaving a challenging, blind blast out of the native. One day I would love to have a go at this green! Drives me nuts that I continually hit it over there.



The short answer is yes.  There appears to be much more room on the left than there actually is.  With Bally virgins on the tee, I tell them not to fall for that trick.  Aim right center unless you absolutely know the ball is going to be cut.  So many golfers are sucked into that vortex on the right.
I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world.  This makes it hard to plan the day.  E. B. White

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2011, 10:36:38 AM »
Jim,

Thanks for the tip!

Jim Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2011, 10:46:14 AM »
Jim,

Thanks for the tip!

Except I meant to say "the vortex on the left".  Jedi mind trick at work again.  ;)
I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world.  This makes it hard to plan the day.  E. B. White

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal G&HC - Tom Doak, A Photo Tour - Hole 5 Posted
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2011, 08:49:18 PM »
Eric, You are not alone. The raised teeing ground at the 4th almost always causes a pull. It would be cool to think that the intimidating bunker and fence line, right, play on the sub-conscience. But, I'm convinced it's more a function of a combination of the vista tee to a downhill fwy. Plus, the nature of the hole, without any real frames of reference, makes alignment difficult. After realizing it's a re-occurring habit, it then starts to play on your mind. My solution; I play it forward, where I can reach in two. The second shot from 230-250,  I hit a low runner that scurries up the hill, after having landed well back. I have a blast when that one succeeds. Actually Dick Daley's virgin trek did exactly that. It was an awesome feeling that day to see Dick playing in the sand.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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