Ballyneal G&HC, Holyoke, CO (Doak) - A Photo Tour - Hole 17 Posted

[Scott Warren]

This:



is a breathtaking view. I can't even imagine how much better it would look "in the flesh".

[Steve Kline]

First time I played this hole I hit driver wedge. Next time it was into the wind and I was hitting a long iron. It is a really cool hole when played from just right of the first green.

Steve,

My caddie showed me some pretty cool alternate teeing locations for other holes, but he didn't show me that one.  Is the tee shot blind from there?

It is blind. Basically all you can see is the big bunker on the left. From this angle your line needs to be very close to that bunker I think. Your mistake was not playing with Colton. He showed Ll konds of cool "tees." Although I did find a spot for #13 he had never played from. I will point it out when we get there.

[Scott Szabo]

Be careful about heaping too much praise on #2.  Been down that road before myself and only had one other join me in my battle.  Maybe I enjoy the hole more than the next since a draw is my normal shot, and the run up between the bunkers is cool.  Possibly my favorite on the course, but what do I know! 

[Mark Saltzman]

Be careful about heaping too much praise on #2.  Been down that road before myself and only had one other join me in my battle.  Maybe I enjoy the hole more than the next since a draw is my normal shot, and the run up between the bunkers is cool.  Possibly my favorite on the course, but what do I know! 

Scott,

I am absolutely amazed at the lack of discussion about hole #2.  I guess everyone else did get it into the wind and has less than fond memories from making X's!

If no one wants to talk about 2, I suppose we should discuss #3... stay tuned, coming tonight!

[Jim Colton]

In a match against John Kirk in June, he dialed up the low hooking shot through the gap to less than 10 feet on a front right green. It was quite a shot to behold.

People often talk about putting from ultra-long distances as sort of ground-game taken to an extreme, but this hole is one example where a 60-80 yard putt right through the gap might actually be your best option depending on the wind.

[Kalen Braley]

I should also point out...in representing the "other" half.

If you don't hit your tee ball well enough and fail to catch the big downslope chute in the fairway...this hole turns into a very looooonng hole to save par.

[Scott Szabo]

Kalen, can't that be said for every long par four?  I've already been down this road before regarding this hole, and don't want to do battle again.  I can agree the tee shot doesn't carry the same strayegic element that some of the other holes do, but the second shot may be my favorite approach on the course.  Especially when it's playing firm as it can.  Even the architect himslef has called me crazy for my affection for this hole, so take it for what it's worth.

[Mark Saltzman]

Scott,

I agree, there is little strategy off the tee.  The bunkers are placed at perfect yardages, such that if you want to get the benefit of the downslope, you must hit a drive long enough to challenge the bunkers.  But, the problem is that I don't think anybody in their right mind would ever choose to lay-up short of the bunkers (1) because it leaves a really long approach (about 240 yards), and (2) the fairway is so wide.  This, in my mind, changes the bunkers from strategic to penal.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, can't that be said for every long par four?  I've already been down this road before regarding this hole, and don't want to do battle again.  I can agree the tee shot doesn't carry the same strayegic element that some of the other holes do, but the second shot may be my favorite approach on the course.  Especially when it's playing firm as it can.  Even the architect himslef has called me crazy for my affection for this hole, so take it for what it's worth.

I would agree with the architects assessment.  Personally this hole is in my bottom 5 of the holes at Ballyneal

Sure, its a great hole for the long bombers who want to beat thier chests and brag to thier friends "I hit driver/wedge on a 440 yard par 4"..but for everyone else who doesn't have the length to hit the big slide...its a long brutal a hole where you are just trying to shoot no worse than bogey.

[Mac Plumart]

I've only had the pleasure of playing Ballyneal twice, but in my brief experience with the course I'd say these two opening holes are close to the ideal way to introduce the course to the golfer.

As has been mentioned, three putting the first green isn't abnormal.  In fact, in my two plays I have a total of 6 putts on that green (well, that is not exactly true...one putt went clean off the green and I had to chip back to the hole, so 5 putts and one chip after hitting the green in my two plays!!). 

But my point is that this introduces the course to the golfer and one of the most interesting aspects of this course is the greens.  Even if one and two aren't the most interesting of the greens, they still are so wildly different than most greens most golfers play on you need relatively mundane greens to ease the golfer into the round.

Not only do you have crazy contours and interesting approachs shot to the greens at Ballyneal, but you have fescue greens.  Not normal in the golfing circles I run in.

I think Ballyneal gets better on the subsequent holes, but 1 and 2 are darn near a perfect set of opening holes for the course.

[Scott Szabo]

Kalen, the part of the hole I like is the second shot, not the fact that you can drive it 300 plus.  The further from the hole your second shot is, the more likely you'll have the shot I'm referring to.  Counting Mark, I've found three of us who feel the same way.  Obviously we're in the minority, and that's just fine with me.

[Kalen Braley]

Scott,

And thats cool, sorry if it seemed I was a bit harsh in my last assessment.  There is so much wickedly cool stuff at Ballyneal.... even a very good hole like #2 can fly under the radar a bit!

I guess its polarzing because based on ones skill set, the hole almost plays like two different holes.  In the group I played with, I was faced with approach shots which were longer than I could get there 230+ ..and my partner was approaching with 8 and 7 iron IIRC.

[Adam Clayman]

The second clearly is better than most people think if a guy like Mark can think that the ideal line is the left side off the tee. Yes, the staircase can help propel your ball forward and to the right, but the real secret is to play your drive right center. Especially if you're a big hitter or t's downwind. BECAUSE, the left side runs out of room, while the right and center do not. As for it being a brute, I took one of the high school players there, not a great player, or long baller, either, and he hit two of the best shots ever, sans wind, and made birdie from 3 feet, with an 8 iron approach.

 

The reason the first and second greens are difficult to putt is because of the subtle internal contours that will throw ones putt ontrary to the slope of the grade. This subtlety makes the mounds hard to see. Same with the right side of the third green.

[Darren Gloster]

To those who have a lot of rounds in at Ballyneal, would you say that the 1st green is the most often 3-putted green on the course? It's not a wild green by BN standards but there's a pretty good tilt down to front left. You see a lot more putts run out (or off) going that direction or putts left woefully short coming up and over the ridges back and right. Plus it's obviously early in the round and that usually is enough to claim a few victims.

The only other green that comes to mind for lots of 3-putts might be #13. Any other contenders?

Jim,  I would add 12 into that mix, only when the pin is on the upper shelf on the right.  The putt up the tier is extremely difficult to judge.  Even more difficult if you dont control your distance with your second shot, which when played into the breeze like most of our rounds in June, isnt an easy task.  I would say that  the miss for most lower markers (right handers) would be a tendency to pull their short iron when trying to knock it down, which invariably leads to a putt up the slope.  The other thing I love about this approach is that to get it close with the wind into and off the right, you need to flight it toward the bunker and risk short siding yourself.  Big reason of why I really enjoy this hole.  Requires you to try and hug the bunkers left off the tee to get the best line of approach, then challenges you again on the second.   Reminds me of 15 at Barnbougle in that it isnt a driveable four seems to play into the breeze more often than not, but challenges the player strategically with both the tee shot and the approach.  

Would also add 14 into the mix with one.  I dont think the player realizes how much slope is on those greens when then they have a downhill putt.  They are considerably faster than other putts and its not until you have had the putt a couple of times you realize.  I would agree the more holes that have the obvious slopes give you an expectation of what is going to happen.  1 & 14 are subtle but sinister above the hole.

[Mark Saltzman]

Adam, while I didn't realize one could run out of fairway on the left, I did realize that the right was the way to go...

  One will gain the most yardage by using the speed slot on the left side of the fairway, but the approach is certainly easier from the right.

[Wyatt Halliday]

For me, number two poses a question that would be ridiculous at most other courses. Would you prefer hitting 5 iron into the wind knowing the ball will stop relatively close to its landing spot or would you rather have SW downwind knowing that only a perfectly executed shot will land and roll to your preferred distance?

I think the downwind wedge shot is much more difficult to execute.

[Harris Nepon]

To those who have a lot of rounds in at Ballyneal, would you say that the 1st green is the most often 3-putted green on the course? It's not a wild green by BN standards but there's a pretty good tilt down to front left. You see a lot more putts run out (or off) going that direction or putts left woefully short coming up and over the ridges back and right. Plus it's obviously early in the round and that usually is enough to claim a few victims.

The only other green that comes to mind for lots of 3-putts might be #13. Any other contenders?

Jim, got to nominate #15. Especially with the pin on the left, can be a very difficult green to 2 putt. Coupled with the difficulty of getting it close off the tee and semi blind shot, I found this one to be most difficult.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Awesome hole form wherever you play the teeshot, although the one close to number1 green make sit an extra special hole.
Into the wind using the alternate tee really turns the hole into a par 5, but a good par five at that.
The graciuos landing area makes the hole playable from any tee in any wind condition, anything less would be rather too tough.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 3: Par 3, 145 Yards



A short par 3 with a snaking tee box and a severely undulating green.  Depending on where you choose to tee off from* the hole can play quite different in terms of both length and angle of approach. 

The bunkers and long grass short of the green should not be in play.  But, they do a very good job of (1) intimidating the player, even with a short-iron in hand, and (2) throwing off the depth perception of the player on this yardage marker-less course.

The green at the third is exceptional.  Generally, the slopes left and right of the green serve to kick a ball toward the centre of the green.  For the first time at Ballyneal, the keen-eyed player has the option of using a side-board to his advantage.  But there is no reward without risk.  For example, players attempting to use the side-board to get to a front pin that is long and left, leave an all but impossible recovery if they happen to hit there ball just over the slope in the green.  Jim, I'll bet there are a lot of three putts from the back of the green to a front pin on 3!  There are also bunkers left and right.  Attempting to use the slopes but ending up in one of these bunkers leaves a very difficult recovery (they are a decent way off the green, though - in my 5 rounds I didn't even notice them - but from the pictures they look like big trouble).

*  Did I mention there are no tee markers at Ballyneal?  Tee-off wherever you think looks best.  The hole can play anywhere from about 110 yards to 145 yards from the 'tee box,' but for the adventurous golfer it can play a whole lot more than that.  One could play the hole from a couple of steps left of the 2nd green, making it about 180 yards.  Or, if really brave, take your ball as far back into the second fairway as you like (provided there is no one playing the hole) --- my caddie had me play the hole from 230 yards.  The bunkers short of the green are in play from there.

View from 'tee' left of 2nd green (180 yards)







From 145 yard tee







Approach green from left





From behind green





From near the 4th tee

[Scott Szabo]

During last year's Yucca, our host had us play from just off #2 green.  It changes the hole dramatically from a rather straight forward short iron to a relatively blind 5-iron, if memory serves me correctly.  I think they tried to use their length to their advantage, as we moved waaay back every time they had the honor on the tee.  Thus, we were introduced to teeing grounds that had never been seen before.

[Doug Wright]

I love the setting for the third green. The green just sits there in this little dell. The slopes are fun to use but, as Mark points out, one can find some awkward spots if too errant.

[Kalen Braley]

I love the setting for the third green. The green just sits there in this little dell. The slopes are fun to use but, as Mark points out, one can find some awkward spots if too errant.

Doug,

I was thinking the same thing...it does play like a dell hole with the high left and right sides with respect to the tee.

I thought the bunkering created a real visual dilemma when standing on the tee and you really had to trust your yardage.  That being said there are tons of different ways this hole could be played with varying shot types.  A really terrific par 3 and certainly the best one shotter on the front 9.

[Bill_McBride]

In a match against John Kirk in June, he dialed up the low hooking shot through the gap to less than 10 feet on a front right green. It was quite a shot to behold.

People often talk about putting from ultra-long distances as sort of ground-game taken to an extreme, but this hole is one example where a 60-80 yard putt right through the gap might actually be your best option depending on the wind.

Captain Kirk has quite an arsenal of shots, doesn't he?

[Bill_McBride]

For me, number two poses a question that would be ridiculous at most other courses. Would you prefer hitting 5 iron into the wind knowing the ball will stop relatively close to its landing spot or would you rather have SW downwind knowing that only a perfectly executed shot will land and roll to your preferred distance?

I think the downwind wedge shot is much more difficult to execute.

Anybody who hits 5-iron into #2 into the wind either plays a game with which I am completely unfamiliar or is laying up. 

#2 is a par 5 for mortals >60.

[Bill_McBride]

I love the setting for the third green. The green just sits there in this little dell. The slopes are fun to use but, as Mark points out, one can find some awkward spots if too errant.

Back right pin, I found out you have to be very careful playing off that left slope.  I thought I hit a perfect 8-iron over there and it bounced straight ahead into that left bunker!   

In the afternoon I went at the center, hit another "perfect" short iron and watched it bounce into the back bunker. 

Who said life was fair?   Not me!