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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1225 on: September 28, 2011, 11:28:09 AM »
Pat,

Do you agree that the ravine in those pictures is running from short left (maybe 7 o'clock) to long right (maybe 1 o'clock)?

NO

If not, how would you describe it's orientation?

8:30 to 2:30.

And, look at the ascending shoulder to the right, does that not resemble the ascending shoulder that forms the platform for the 6th tee ?


I think your Purple Camera angle is likely the closest.

Jim,

How can you totally ignore Brown's description, "facing the 4th fairway, 2nd green AND 3rd tee."
Would you say that the purple lines have those three features centered properly ?

The third tee isn't even within the purple lines.

And Mike thinks you're more familiar with PV than me ? ;D


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1226 on: September 28, 2011, 11:33:48 AM »
Patrick,

I've mocked up both photos to chronicle my interpretations, per your request.    I can't upload them to the Internet at present, but will do so by tonight.

The road or railroad bed appears white because it's a black and white photo.   

So is the photo from # 6 and the photo behind # 18, they're both black and white photos and black, grey or dull objects do not photograph as STARK WHITE.

The railroad bed is BLACK/BLUE STONE

Now you're telling us that BLACK/BLUE objects show up white in a black and white photo ?


The green pine trees appear black...some of the others shades of grey.   What does that tell us?   Not much.

If you're in denial, "not much".


If you go to Google Earth and zoom in on the railroad bed along 18, what color is it? 

It ain't white.

Don't try to change the photo being analyzed, stick with the black and whites posted.

WHY aren't the train tracks BRIGHT WHITE, as the road/path is ?
 

Mike Cirba


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1228 on: September 28, 2011, 11:47:47 AM »

David,

I would put the second green very close to the letter D in Bryan doctored image. Not the arrow from the D, but on or just above/right (less than an inch away) from the D itself.

Jim,  

Thanks.  The location you describe is an awful long ways from the edge of the clearing and the ravine, isn't it?    In real life, how far is the 2nd green from the tree line across the 4th, at its closest point?  Because in photos and aerials it looks pretty close, at least relative to what you are suggesting above.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1229 on: September 28, 2011, 01:58:52 PM »
If we can agree on where the horizon line at the top of the 4th fairway is located, it should be a relatively easy task to estimate the 4th fairway, no?




DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1230 on: September 28, 2011, 02:55:35 PM »
Why don't you give it a rest, Mike?  With you involved agreement will be impossible.  Every two minutes you think you have it all figured out, so you launch into your sarcasm and your mocking half-truths and flat out misrepresentations, and every two minutes you are incorrect.  You are a waste of time.
____________________________________________________________________________

All else.  I finally pulled out both the Pine Valley books and looked at the images in question side by side and at a number of the other images as well.  A few generally comments.

Anyone who thinks that prior to clearing this was a scattering of small bushes (as you guys seem to implying with the constant sarcasm and comments about scrubs and dwarfs) and that the land would have been easily discernible from a moving train, then either you have not seen the photos in the books, or you are delusional, or like Mike you are purposefully misrepresenting the facts.    

Bryan, there is a photo in both books showing the steam winch used to pull the stumps, along with a number of stumps. The "scrub" or "dwarf" stumps look to be in the range of eight inches to a foot in diameter, larger than a man's thigh but narrower than his waste.  While they may not have been redwoods, were not five foot saplings either.   Of course Mike knows this because he has seen at least one of the books.  Yet he is too slimy to tell you this, and instead plays along with notion that these were tiny trees.

As for the two photos in question:
- Neither is great, but the photo in the Brown book is much better.  Someone with a working scanner (not me) should scan it.  
- Both photos are cropped.   The photo in brown shows less sky, less immediate foreground (what appear to felled trees)  and a bit more to the left of the photo.
- There may be a few man made structures visible in the Brown photo, but I cannot tell for sure.  

As for what Mike is absolutely certain must be the RR tracks, it doesn't look like it to me at all.  To me it looks like more bare area that has recently been cleared.  The perspective and the exposure of the rough copy in the Shelly book make it look like a line but I don't think it is one.

Here is a section of the 1931 Aerial from the Dallin Collection showing the area in question.  If nothing else it ought to give you guys an idea of this density of the surrounding woods, and everyone but Mike ought to be able to extrapolate back what the site might have looked like before it was cleared.  They didn't call it Pine Valley for nothing.  



And another aerial from the next year, showing a smaller area from the opposite perspective:

« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 03:10:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1231 on: September 28, 2011, 03:20:48 PM »
David,

Thank you for posting those photos.

But, what do 1930s photos of a Pine and Deciduous tree Forest have to do with what was visible or the state of that forest, or more specifically, the state of that specific property in 1910?   Although I don't know the details, Crump originally bought the property from the Lumberton Sand Co., so we don't know if it had been mined or lumbered, but we do know that something was going on there previously as there was a train station right on the tracks in the middle of it.

As far as the Brown book, if the picture is better are you saying you can't or won't post the picture from the Brown book?   Patrick told us that the left side of the picture is only slightly truncated while you seem to indicate that there is "a bit more to the left of the photo".

Since it seems at this time we are solely reliant on your description of what is in the picture, can you estimate about how much of the left of the photo is missing in the Shelly book?

Your second photo below posted from the Dallin Collection of the Hagley Museum (available online at http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=any&CISOBOX1=Golf&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOROOT=%2Fp268001uw) shows the prominence of the rail line to the golf course, as do others in the collection, as well.   You can easily see the curve of the dogleg of the 6th fairway in the right foreground in the photo, as well.   As you know, that slimy Jim Sullivan has estimated based on his extensive knowledge of the property that the photo was taken from near this corner.

Are you saying that the rail line wouldn't be visible from the 164 foot elevation of the 6th fairway down the length of the 4th hole if the camera was oriented in the way that Jim Sullivan, Bryan, Jeff Brauer, and I have argued?

One can clearly see how elevated that railbed was/is in that section along 18.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 03:36:17 PM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1232 on: September 28, 2011, 03:32:58 PM »
By the way, here's the actual, un-truncated version of the 1931 photo above, again showing the prominence of the rail line.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1233 on: September 28, 2011, 03:48:18 PM »
You are pure sleaze, Cirba.  Everything you touch turns to slime.  

Now you are claiming the land had already been timbered prior to Crump finding the land? You are just going to conveniently discard the multitude reports about them having cleared the trees and tens of thousands of tree stumps? Sleaze.  

As for the "un-truncated" photo, unlike you I clearly identify my source material and the date.  All anyone had to do is follow the link on my photo and it would take them right there - you figured it out so any moron could.   So let's not conjecture or imply that I was trying to pull a fast one.  That is your bailiwick, not mine.  

Speaking of idiotic conjecture. . . your claim of the  "prominence of the rail line" in an aerial is just that.  The rail line was sunken well below the surrounds for most of its passage by Pine Valley.  But because you can see it on a AERIAL you think it must have been clearly visible from ground level from 660 yards away?  Asinine.  And no f'ing way it would be visible "down the length of the 4th fairway" the way  YOU have argued.   The spot you picked (virtually on the 6th green) is at about 165 feet elevation.   On a direct line over the crest of the 4th fairway, the RR is over 700 yards away, and the crest of the 4th fairway is about at the mid-point.    The elevation of the RR is at 90 feet.  Now why don't you hire a seventh grader to explain to you why you would not be able to see the RR "down the length of the 4th fairway" from the spot you chose near the 6th green?  


« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 04:00:09 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1234 on: September 28, 2011, 03:56:14 PM »
An honest question for Jim and Bryan . . . Why do you put up with Cirba's endless bullshit?   Wouldn't these conversations work a lot better if you would call him on it once in a while, instead of letting him go on endlessly, just making shit up and manipulating the facts to suit his needs? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1235 on: September 28, 2011, 03:58:31 PM »
David,

You're too funny.

The view and orientation of the camera is from the right side, "down the length of the 4th fairway".   That's not where the railroad tracks are visible.

Instead, they are clearly visible on the right side of the photo near/along the 18th green, and are blocked by the high ridge of the 4th hole/2nd green on the left side of the photo.

We also know he cleared hundreds of trees...that's not disputed.   But, the initial deed was from the Lumberton Sand Co.    Do you think perhaps they just did nothing to the land and simply placed a train station there for funsies?

How much of the rail line would need to be elevated above the land for Crump to have gotten a good view do you think...especially the land elevated above the golf course along most all of #18 to the ridge across to #9 green, or perhaps down by the #14th, with the glorious view back up the ridge to #13?

Are you saying that wasn't possible?   Are you kidding me?   Have you ever been to Pine Valley?

« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 04:00:44 PM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1236 on: September 28, 2011, 04:03:38 PM »
David,

I'm pretty sure that Bryan and Jim have no problem and I think we've had a nice discussion.   Of course, they are free to state otherwise if they feel that way, but it seems we've been in agreement on most things here, or within reasonable limits of disagreement.

I'm also sure you'd love it for me to just go away and let you, MacWood, and Patrick spin your wildly revisionist theories of history, and that may happen soon, just like you guys have discouraged many others here who simply had an interest in golf course history with your constant personal insults and bullying.

But while I'm here, can you post the photo from the Brown book?

By the way, I clicked on your photo and nothing happened...could it be that I'm using Firefox for my browser?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 04:09:08 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1237 on: September 28, 2011, 04:09:20 PM »
The RR tracks are CLEARLY VISIBLE???

You are a waste of time.  What a fool I am to bother.
________________

Jim,

If you see my questions above, I hope you will answer them.  In the mean time I am going to go back to ignoring Cirba.

_
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1238 on: September 28, 2011, 04:11:19 PM »
Phew, thanks David.    I'm happy to reciprocate, especially since I think we're making slow but steady progress here despite attempts at derailment.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1239 on: September 28, 2011, 04:23:08 PM »
If you are happy to reciprocate then why the fuck don't you just leave my posts alone.  I made it abundantly clear that my comments above were NOT to you, but were directed to those actually capable and willing to have a productive discussion.  Yet since my post above where I asked you to leave it alone you have posted FIVE TIMES.  

YOU'VE POSTED FIVE TIMES.  Yet you have said nothing.  And added nothing. That is hardly ignoring me.  

About every one of my posts prompts a stinky slew of misinformation from you.  EVERYTHING IN MY POST WAS ACCURATE.  Nothing in your FIVE POSTS even touches it.  Your sleaze and deflection had nothing to do with my posts, yet you POSTED FIVE TIMES.

So PLEASE, ignore me.  Let me communicate with others without you sticking your pointless crap into my attempts to move the conversation along.

QUIT WASTING MY TIME.  QUIT WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME.  
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 04:26:42 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1240 on: September 28, 2011, 04:24:30 PM »
-
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1241 on: September 28, 2011, 04:28:15 PM »
David,

I'd be delighted to ignore you and your posts.   I wasn't answering your question to Jim, but posting a modern photo of the 4th hole from the tee that shows the curvature of the ridge line for comparison with the ridge line in the old photo.

And to be fair, it is admittedly difficult to ignore you when your post asking me to leave it alone referenced me by name six separate times, including the usual bunch of personal insults.

I haven't mentioned you in this thread at all except when you directed attacks at me.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 04:29:48 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1242 on: September 28, 2011, 04:31:06 PM »
Jim, Bryan, and Patrick, here is a post of mine above which has been lost in the usual Cirba slime:

All else.  I finally pulled out both the Pine Valley books and looked at the images in question side by side and at a number of the other images as well.  A few generally comments.

Anyone who thinks that prior to clearing this was a scattering of small bushes (as you guys seem to implying with the constant sarcasm and comments about scrubs and dwarfs) and that the land would have been easily discernible from a moving train, then either you have not seen the photos in the books, or you are delusional, or like Mike you are purposefully misrepresenting the facts.    

Bryan, there is a photo in both books showing the steam winch used to pull the stumps, along with a number of stumps. The "scrub" or "dwarf" stumps look to be in the range of eight inches to a foot in diameter, larger than a man's thigh but narrower than his waste.  While they may not have been redwoods, were not five foot saplings either.   Of course Mike knows this because he has seen at least one of the books.  Yet he is too slimy to tell you this, and instead plays along with notion that these were tiny trees.

As for the two photos in question:
- Neither is great, but the photo in the Brown book is much better.  Someone with a working scanner (not me) should scan it.  
- Both photos are cropped.   The photo in brown shows less sky, less immediate foreground (what appear to felled trees)  and a bit more to the left of the photo.
- There may be a few man made structures visible in the Brown photo, but I cannot tell for sure.  

As for what Mike is absolutely certain must be the RR tracks, it doesn't look like it to me at all.  To me it looks like more bare area that has recently been cleared.  The perspective and the exposure of the rough copy in the Shelly book make it look like a line but I don't think it is one.

Here is a section of the 1931 Aerial from the Dallin Collection showing the area in question.  If nothing else it ought to give you guys an idea of this density of the surrounding woods, and everyone but Mike ought to be able to extrapolate back what the site might have looked like before it was cleared.  They didn't call it Pine Valley for nothing.  



And another aerial from the next year, showing a smaller area from the opposite perspective:


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1243 on: September 28, 2011, 04:45:13 PM »
David,

You really can't help yourself, can you?

How about trying to re-post, making your points without referencing or insulting me?

It's really not that hard...let me try for you;

Jim, Bryan, and Patrick, here is a post of mine above which I've edited for strictly factual content and personal opinion:

All else.  I finally pulled out both the Pine Valley books and looked at the images in question side by side and at a number of the other images as well.  A few generally comments.

Anyone who thinks that prior to clearing this was a scattering of small bushes (as you guys seem to implying with the constant sarcasm and comments about scrubs and dwarfs) and that the land would have been easily discernible from a moving train, then either you have not seen the photos in the books, or you are delusional.

Bryan, there is a photo in both books showing the steam winch used to pull the stumps, along with a number of stumps. The "scrub" or "dwarf" stumps look to be in the range of eight inches to a foot in diameter, larger than a man's thigh but narrower than his waste.  While they may not have been redwoods, were not five foot saplings either.  

As for the two photos in question:
- Neither is great, but the photo in the Brown book is much better.  Someone with a working scanner (not me) should scan it.  
- Both photos are cropped.   The photo in brown shows less sky, less immediate foreground (what appear to felled trees)  and a bit more to the left of the photo.
- There may be a few man made structures visible in the Brown photo, but I cannot tell for sure.  

As for what some here have argued must be the RR tracks, it doesn't look like it to me at all.  To me it looks like more bare area that has recently been cleared.  The perspective and the exposure of the rough copy in the Shelly book make it look like a line but I don't think it is one.

Here is a section of the 1931 Aerial from the Dallin Collection showing the area in question.  If nothing else it ought to give you guys an idea of this density of the surrounding woods, and I think you should be able to extrapolate back what the site might have looked like before it was cleared.  They didn't call it Pine Valley for nothing.  

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1244 on: September 28, 2011, 04:49:18 PM »
If we're trying to prove the RR tracks either were or were not visible from the ridgeline, why not just look straight down the ravine/pond/lake from the 6th green?

For those unfamiliar, the 6th hole is at the bottom-right of David's last picture there, it's a dogleg right and the picture cuts off about 50 yards from the green. Now, consider that the green is about 60 feet higher than the lake just 100 yards to it's right (with a house in between, I believe it's Warner Shelly's house ironically...). That lake goes all the way to the tracks jut about...but what's the point? Who ever said you could, or could not see the 6th fairway from the train, or the reverse?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1245 on: September 28, 2011, 05:12:32 PM »
Jim so far as I know the issue of whether the RR tracks are visible from the 6th green is yet another idiotic and irrelevant tangent.

I am still wondering about your suggested location for the 2nd green relative to the ravine.  Where would you place the 4th fairway in relation to the  road we can see?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1246 on: September 28, 2011, 05:17:59 PM »



Pat,

Look down the right side of that picture. We can see the opposite bank along way down there. With an 8:30 - 2:30 orientation we couldn't.


David,

A few posts ago I speculated that the road we can see would be in about the middle of the 4th fairway. Where do you think these features are?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 07:16:13 PM by Jim Sullivan »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1247 on: September 28, 2011, 05:50:08 PM »
I don't know.  I am just curious and trying to make sense of it.

The 2nd green isn't far from the middle of 4th fairway, is it?

« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 05:53:39 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1248 on: September 28, 2011, 07:01:32 PM »
Mike Cirba,

You're unbelievable.

Simon Carr describes the land, land he walked and studied, as Jungle like.
Tilliinghast, describes the land, land he walked and studied as so dense with trees and undergrowth that it was hidden from mortal eyes, TWO years after the land had been purchased and clearing begun.

But, you have the balls to declare that it was mined and/or cleared of trees, thereby making it highly visible from the train. ?

Two, highly reliable sources, according to you, both declared the land dense with forest and undergrowth and yet you in your desperate attempt to perpetuate the myth, insult everyone's intelligence by stating that the land had been cleared and/or mined.

Mike, this is what I really, really object to, your complete disregard of the facts and your insertion of wild, reckless, inaccurate statements, all made to perpetuate a myth.

As I asked you previously, when will you start posting credible, honest posts ?

I think it's a fair question.

David,

With the 6th fairway at 47 M and the top of the 4th fairway and 2nd green at 45 M and the 3rd tee at 47 M, you couldn't see below that sight line while standing on the 6th fairway.

If you'll notice in the Brown/Shelly photo, you can't see beyond the cleared area.

Mike just can't tell the truth when his myths are being revealed for what they are, and that's unfortunatel

From viewing the photos you posted, from different angles, it should put an end to the lunacy regarding the visibility of the RR tracks.

Especially since the train was traveling East, toward the top of the photo.
With the course covered in dense woods and jungle like underbrush, what would GAC see other than dense woods and jungle like underbrush

I want to get back to the 1927 article that indicated that GAC owned 300+ acres prior to the bifurcation into 184 acres for PV.

Mike,

Let me ask you this.

If it's proven that GAC owned 300+ acres prior to the Oct/Nov spin off of 184 acres for PV, would you then admit that the train story is a pure myth ?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 07:08:56 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #1249 on: September 28, 2011, 07:20:41 PM »
I don't know.  I am just curious and trying to make sense of it.

The 2nd green isn't far from the middle of 4th fairway, is it?




Google Earth will be more accurate than my guestimate...for what it's worth however, when you asked about the nearest point of the 2nd gree to the treeline on 4 I guessed 100 yards and Google Earth said 97 yards. I added in that I thought it would probably be 200 yards from the 2nd green to the water..it measured 195!

There's no way the cameraman would tak the picture from a point between the 6th tee and 150 yards out because the ground drops off significantly...and there's no way that picture is from ther 6th tee!

You could see the tracks clear as day on a straight shot down the ravine from just right of the 6th green...

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