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Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #825 on: September 12, 2011, 08:18:37 AM »
Patrick,

Which are/were the Alps holes at Piping Rock and Sleepy Hollow?

Why again wouldn't CBM and/or Whigham have mentioned their latest Alps creation at Merion in their 1914 Alps article?

CBM clearly thought a lot of the course, stating before construction the the last seven holes were the finest of any inland course he knew.   He certainly had no problem with claiming authorship of other courses he designed, even his paper jobs like the Greenbriar.

Why do you think during his lifetime, with Merion hosting 3 major championships and the scene of other large tournaments that he or Whigham never claimed the same about Merion?  

Tom MacWood,

Are you planning to write a point-by-point rebuttal to your March 2005 "In My Opinion" piece, "George Arthur Crump : Portrait of a Legend"?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/thomas-macwood-george-arthur-crump-portrait-of-a-legend/
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 09:21:57 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #826 on: September 12, 2011, 09:44:20 AM »
If I do any thing I may edit the piece to reflect new information, but I have no immediate plans to do so. As I've siad many times, the train story is really not all that important in the greater scheme of things. As Philadelphia myths go it is a relatively minor one.

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #827 on: September 12, 2011, 09:49:08 AM »
Tom,

I'm not talking about the train story.

I'm talking about this recent attempt by you to remove Crump from all design authorship of the golf course.   What new information have you come across since 2005 that leads you to that new conclusion, which runs counter to your entire essay?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #828 on: September 12, 2011, 09:56:43 AM »
The essay was designed to explore Crump's life...his life prior to the project, during the project and his ultimate death. I never intended it to be an essay about who designed the golf course.

I have new info about the sale of the hotel, and the issues dealing with its ownership....the reason he was away from the game that year.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 10:01:40 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #829 on: September 12, 2011, 10:33:32 AM »
Tom,

Except that your essay does describe the design process, and in pretty explicit detail.   You make very clear that Crump had a leading role.

Why the sudden change?   What new evidence led you to new conclusions?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #830 on: September 12, 2011, 10:56:21 AM »
As I said in my previous post the essay was never meant to be an exploration of who designed the course, and therefore that side of it was not discussed in detail. There is only a brief mention of the stick plan, no mention of the July 1913 plan or the January 1914 plan (and their differences). No detail regarding the multiple iterations of the 14th or the changes to 7th and 8th. I did not explore if Colt continued to consult or not. No mention of all the contemporaneous reports that said Colt was the architect. I draw no conclusions about who designed the golf course so I'm not sure why you now think the essay was about who designed the golf course.

There was much more emphasis on the construction aspect (as opposed to the design process) because that frustration may have ultimately resulted in Crump's untimely death.

Is this another one of your disinformation campaigns?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 11:07:06 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #831 on: September 12, 2011, 11:24:02 AM »
No Tom,

I found very little to quibble with in your essay.  It says what it says and is based on fact, not this new campaign to discredit Crump by attacking the credibility of Tillinghast.   I think you see that as killing three birds with one stone.

I also have to ask, is it one of your's?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 11:29:05 AM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #832 on: September 12, 2011, 11:26:53 AM »
Bryan,

Sorry about that screw up with the quote.  I changed it.  

Above you posted a photo from the 18th at Prestwick looking sideways at the green.  You don't happen to have a photo from a similar angle showing the area of transition from the bunker to the green, do you?  If not, I'd appreciate if could you describe what happens there from the bunker to the green?  Thanks.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #833 on: September 12, 2011, 11:30:28 AM »
Very few had reason to quible with the essay because it was focused on Crump's life, and not who designed the golf course. We all know how you'all react when your architectural myths are challenged.

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #834 on: September 12, 2011, 11:33:45 AM »
Interestingly, CBM's version of the land between the fronting cross-bunker and the green does not slop down at all except on the left side, but actually functions a bit as a false front for much of the green, requiring a carry not only of the bunker, but also the ensuing rise in elevation;





« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 11:43:49 AM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #835 on: September 12, 2011, 02:00:30 PM »
David,

My position is simple...I enjoy discussing these courses, especially with you guys because so much material is produced on both sides. I don't have an agenda, other than a compulsion to call it like I see it.

What's yours?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #836 on: September 12, 2011, 03:13:03 PM »
David,

My position is simple...I enjoy discussing these courses, especially with you guys because so much material is produced on both sides. I don't have an agenda, other than a compulsion to call it like I see it.

I understand that is why you are here, Jim, but I am trying to understand your point in this particular discussion of this particular hole and how you get from there to your broader conclusion.

You stated above that you see this hole, among others, as the best evidence that the Merion committee designed and built the holes with input and advice from HJW and CBM.  While I agree that these holes and others leave little doubt that Merion's Committee built the course with the input and advice from HJW and CBM, our difference seems to come down to the nature and extent of that input and advice, and the degree to which it was followed.  Agreed? 

Along those lines, I do not know the precise level of specificity of CBM's input in the planning --we'd need to see the plans they were working on at NGLA and finalized Merion to know that. That is why I have always concentrated on hole concepts and hole placements, and from all I have see, I believe that CBM and HJW played a major role in determining these.

But while I see this hole as confirmation of CBM's and HJW's extensive involvement in determining at least the hole concepts, you seem to view this hole as confirmation that their involvement was minimal.  I don't get this.  Would it be possible for you explain specifically how you get from looking and learning about this hole has lead you to think that their involvement was minimal?  Or perhaps I still don't understand your position?  If so please set me straight?

Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #837 on: September 12, 2011, 04:37:42 PM »
This January, 1914 article from the Philadelphia Inquirer also discusses the lengthy process of discussing and finally building an Ideal course in the Philadelphia area.

It's a shame it doesn't expand further on what they meant by "train windows".






On another note, Hugh Wilson with William Robinson also built a Punchbowl green at Seaview circa 1913.   Tillinghast criticized it as too easy, as only a short pitch was required to the green.


« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 04:46:01 PM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #838 on: September 12, 2011, 07:32:00 PM »
David,

I don't think I said "their involvement was minimal" because I don't think it was. I just think it fell far short of calling the shots. Ithink the attempts at the template holes support the notion that CBM was helpful in an advisory role but never felt nor acted as though this were his project.

You mentioned earlier that you have reason to believe CBM was involve thrughout construction...do you care to reveal what you'e sitting on?

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #839 on: September 12, 2011, 07:40:57 PM »
This came out of the blue  from someone on a farm in Pennsylvania. 
A participant on  GOLFCLUBATLAS.com said about the topo maps of Pine
Valley:
“If the stick routing  was superimposed on the topo circa March 1913, then
we know it had to be done on  or subsequent to March 1903. The question
remains, WHEN was the stick routing  superimposed on the March 1913 Topo ?”
To the question  above an observer would like to offer the following:
The  surveyor/map-maker date on the so-called Crump stick routing says
"Topographical  Plan of the Property of George A Crump, Camden  County, New 
Jersey, March,  1913"
Therefore that map  was probably in Crump’s hands at some point in March
and at least by the  beginning of April. That gave Crump (et al) seven weeks
to two months to work on  a routing with it before Colt first arrived.
Colt arrived in the  end of May or beginning of June 1913 and stayed at PV
for a week (mentioned in  various reports. I also believe that Colt and Mrs
Colt stayed with Mr and Mrs  Hugh I. Wilson in Philadelphia before he spent
that  week with Crump at Pine Valley and that Colt looked  over Merion and
Seaview. I also believe Wilson stayed with Colt  when touring England for
architecture in  March/April 1912. My source for deducing that is a letter Colt
wrote to Wilson in the early  1920s).
The reason I believe  Crump worked on that initial stick routing and
probably finished it and then put  it away when Colt arrived are these:
    1.  Tillinghast  described a few of the first holes of Pine Valley in a
periodical in the May  1913 issue, which means to me that Tillinghast
derived his information and  then wrote his article in April 1913.
2. Colt  apparently always drew with a light blue pencil and there are no
light blue  lines on 
that initial stick routing, at least I am quite sure there aren’t but I 
will be going back down      there to check that item.   
    1.  I believe  when Colt arrived a fresh copy of the March 1913 topo
map was used and that  was what Colt began to put his blue line  Pine Valley
routing  on.
The Crump stick  routing shows the first four holes are as they were built.
 
#5 was from the  present tee to a green in the hill side to the left of
today’s hole  approximately where the driveway turns left to go up to the cl
ubhouse. It was a  shortish drop shot par 3.
From that spot there  were two iterations on the map for #6. One went from
about mid #5 up over the  ridge (right about over Ewing’s house because it 
was not there and neither was the road) to a green about where #6 is today;
It  may’ve been a par 5 concept. The other iteration for #6 was from a tee
near that  shorter left #5 green up over the ridge to the left of #18 to a
green  approximately where #10 green is today; a par 4.
#7 was from a tee to  the right of #10 green to a green approximately where
John Ott’s house is to the  left of today’s #9 fairway; a par 4.
#8 was today’s #6; a  par 4.
#9 was essentially  today’s #7; a par 5 probably.
#10 was essentially  today’s #12 except it was slightly to the right and
appears to have been a quite  long par 3.
#11 was from a tee  around or slightly behind today’s right #13 tee to a
green to the right and well  short of today’s #13 green.
#12 came down over  the ridge to a green approximately at the beginning of
today’s #15 fairway; a  fairly long par 3.
#13 went back up and  over the ridgeline between today’s #13 and #15 to a
green quite near today’s #12  green; a medium length par 4.
#14 came back down  the ridge parallel to #13 to a green on today’s #15
fairway about 300 plus yards  off today’s #15 tee; a medium length par 4.
#15 was from a tee  somewhat less than midway up today’s #15 to a green
approximately where today’s  #11 green is and probably a bit to the right of
it; apparently a very long par  4. 
#16 was a long par 5  from a tee to the right of today’s #11 green to a
green site at approximately  today’s #16 green or perhaps slightly farther on.
#17 was today’s #17  except perhaps slightly to the left (its green seemed
to be pretty much directly  behind today’s #10 green) and at 385 longer than
today’s #17 probably because  the tee was behind today’s waterworks behind
#17 tee because at that point the  waterworks was not there because the
lake on #14, #15 and #16 was not  there.
#18 was today’s  #18.
Did Crump do this  routing perhaps with some help and collaboration from
his friends and new  members? Well if you believe, as I do, what the following
note says and means, I  think any logical or reasonable mind (which frankly
GOLFCLUBATLAS.com has many  of these day although not all) it is hard to
conclude that this stick routing  was not Crump or Crump completely in control
or holding the editorship of this  project and its routing, design and
development. Don’t forget, at this point,  George Crump owned the property
himself, and for the rest of his short life he  owned most of the rest of it
through his anonymous bond purchases!   
To wit-----Crump’s  notation on the top of this early stick routing
superimposed on top of the  original topo map of March 1913:
“Am not sure if the  greens are marked on this map
Where I marked them  on the ground”
GAC
That note is in  Crump’s handwriting. I believe it says and means that at
that point he probably  wasn’t very good at using a topo map or figuring out
how to specifically  correlate the contour lines on the topo map with the
same spots on the ground  (this writer commiserates with that dilemma having
spent about two years and  about 1,000 hours routing and designing a course
in Philadelphia and never being  very comfortable with the use of his topo
contour map). By the way, the contours  lines are five feet elevations and I
think the map is in 1”=200 ft scale or  close to it.
I believe when Colt  arrived at the end of May or the beginning of June
1913 Crump put away this topo  map stick routing with his iterations and
changes on it and broke out a fresh  copy for Colt on which Colt put his routing
on it in light blue pencil using a  number of Crump’s holes and coming up
with some of his own  iterations.
I think the major  changes Colt made was to create the much longer version
of the famous #5 (which  I believe was one of the keys to unraveling some of
the previous routing Crump  had with his original stick routing), to slide
the green for #7 well short and  to the left of Crump’s iteration, to create
the short par 4 #8, the long par 4  #9, the short par 3 #10, the par 4 #11
in its present position, a longer version  of #12 than is there today with a
tee just short and very close to today’s #11  green, a shorter version of
#13 (280-300 yards), a shorter version of #15 and a  version of #16 that may’
ve been a par 5 in the position of the present #16 but  which was a much
shorter tee version of Crump’s stick iteration of #16 which was  a long par 5
(by the way, according to his friends, at the very end Crump was  struggling
with what to do with #15 and also wanted to go back to his original  par 5
#16; there is a totally unique and remarkable balance and variety  structure
Crump seem to get into later (around 1914) which I will try to explain  and
describe some other time). I think Colt’s #4 may’ve been a shortish par 5 
and it was routed slightly to the right of the present hole because Colt’s 
2nd green was approximately 30 yards left of today’s #2 green and  almost
into the left side of today’s 4th fairway which according to  one of Crump’s
friends Crump said ‘No Good” (about the left placement of #2’s  green). By
the way, Crump’s favorite holes, according to his friends, were #2  and #18.
Colt’s 3rd tee was just about in the middle of today’s  2nd green.
And then Colt left  never to return to Pine Valley. Following his visit 
Crump began to change the holes and put his red lines on the “Blue/Red Line” 
topo map (and some other lead pencil lines on the map) for close to the
next  four years.
That “Blue/Red Line  topo map hung on the wall in the clubhouse for what
could be up to 90 years now  but not until about 2001 did someone begin to
figure out what the blue lines  meant and whose they were and whose the red
lines and others were and when, and  the routing and design puzzle between Colt
and Crump began to be revealed and  the architectural attribution between
the two became more  clear.
Colt also left a hole  by hole flip-top booklet of the individual holes of
his routing with some text  instructions on them. The holes of that booklet
almost perfectly match the blue  lines on the “Blue/Red Line” topo and they
both match the so-called Pine Valley course map of July  1913 that says on
it “as suggested by Harry Colt.” I believe Crump gave his map  maker the
blue line topo and the Colt hole by hole booklet and asked him to make  that
map. That’s the map we bought on EBay about 2005. It was found some years 
ago in a flea market sale in Clementon and bought for $56. We bought if from
the  EBay seller about five minutes before the gavel for 15 grand and turned
it over  to Pine Valley were it now hangs in  copy.
When Crump died on Jan 24,  1918 only fourteen holes  were in play. #12-#15
were in one state of development or another and they would  not come into
play until 1921 when the full Pine Valley 18 hole course would be  completed
eight years after it began.
Before that the club  played and 18 hole course by playing 1 through 11,
then #16, #17 and #18 and  then #1 through #4 over again and you were right
back at the  clubhouse.
That’s my version of  the stick routing and some other maps of 1913 that
were used to create the  routing and much of the course. The story will be
done in far more detail both  hole by hole and otherwise. I plan to devote a
chapter to each hole and its  conception, creation and entire evolution in
real detail using the timeline of  all the remaining chronological details
available to the club at this time.   
I firmly believe this  will assign and explain the complete and
historically accurate evolutionary  architectural attribution of Pine Valley and hole
by hole to  those who conceived of them and created them. The real story of
Pine Valley is remarkable in its  time-span and effort and particularly in
its collaboration amongst Crump and  friends and the fact that if ever there
was a “Walden  Pond” experience with a  golf architect, creator, editor etc,
this one IS IT!
And of course it is  just so interesting that early on and right on along
it has been considered  perhaps one of the greatest golf courses and arguably
the greatest golf  architecture in the world.
THERE’S MORE-----but  that will be for Pine Valley only for  now! 


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #840 on: September 12, 2011, 07:48:27 PM »
Thanks Bob,

Tom seems to think his participation in this conversation is better suited off this particular website...altough still connected to it because his blast emails to 30 or more participants (past and present) are always initiated by a comment on the site. If you look at that particular email there are probably dozens of oter recipients...I know I was one...

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #841 on: September 12, 2011, 08:31:13 PM »
Jim,

I saw other names and found that no one had submitted the information.

TEP is a friend of mine and asked a favor of me, I had no hesitation in complying.

Bob

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #842 on: September 12, 2011, 08:59:09 PM »
Bob,

Thanks for sharing that.

So good to see some actual factual evidence and some reasoned, objective analysis enter this agenda-driven, speculative circus with the usual protagonists again trying to make names for themselves by attempting to rewrite history.

I didn't always agree with Tom's methods here, but I can certainly understand his frustration.  

For every ounce of knowledge, insight, and analytical judgement the new town bullies have here, Tom had a bushel-full.  

The site is half of what it once was, due to his loss and the loss of quite a number of others who sickened of the agenda-driven bullshit here masquerading as solid, objective research and analysis.

I'm sure I'll get insulted again by the usual crew for speaking the truth, but I'm wearing it as a badge of honor.

In that light, and because those few here spend their time trying to convince the uninitiated that the entire amateur sportsman architect movement was a myth, I would present the following from the London Daily Mail from 1909 that detailed the exact same phenomenon happening on those shores at that time.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 09:36:39 PM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #843 on: September 12, 2011, 09:06:41 PM »
Bob,

I wouldn't ask you not to post it. Tom is full of valuable insight. Did you suggest he rejoin the site so he can post for himself?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #844 on: September 12, 2011, 10:41:07 PM »
David,

I don't think I said "their involvement was minimal" because I don't think it was. I just think it fell far short of calling the shots. Ithink the attempts at the template holes support the notion that CBM was helpful in an advisory role but never felt nor acted as though this were his project.

You mentioned earlier that you have reason to believe CBM was involve thrughout construction...do you care to reveal what you'e sitting on?

First, given that CBM and HJW decided upon the final layout plan, I am not sure who you think was calling the shots.

Second, I haven't gone back to check, but I believe what I wrote was that there is evidence that CBM was still advising Wilson during construction.

Third, I am not sitting on anything regarding this particular issue. It has all been covered before ad nauseam.   To refresh, a letter from CBM to Wilson found its way into the USDA letters because Wilson forwarded it to Piper and/or Oakley.  As I recall, the letter was dated months after tCBM and Whigham determined the final layout plan.  

Knowledge of the letter has been floating around for years, but in their zeal to besmirch CBM and discount his involvement, the Merionettes had long misunderstood and misrepresented the letter as evidence of a fight or falling out or parting of the ways between CBM and Merion.  But they ignored the accompanying letter which explained it otherwise.

I don't have the two letters handy, but as I recall the gist is that Reginald Beale, the British seed guy, had met with Wilson at Merion and would later be meeting with CBM, so Wilson had asked CBM to try to get Beale's candid opinion on some agronomy issues at Merion. After CBM met with Beale he wrote to Wilson relaying the requested information.  Wilson then forwarded the letter to Piper and Oakley to run Beale's ideas by them.  Thus the letter made its way way into the USGA files.  

« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 10:46:10 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #845 on: September 12, 2011, 11:22:57 PM »

Interestingly, CBM's version of the land between the fronting cross-bunker and the green does not slop down at all except on the left side,

That's absolutley NOT true.

The ground does fall down and away on the land between the bunker in front of the green and the green.

Don't you remember Redanman stating that he tries to hit over the bunker and short of the green to get the turbo boost onto the green ?


It's a trough like effect, the ground slopes down from the bunker until just short of the green, then it slopes back up


but actually functions a bit as a false front for much of the green, requiring a carry not only of the bunker, but also the ensuing rise in elevation;


Again, you're completely MISREPRESENTING the characteristics of the land between the bunker and the green.
The land falls DOWN from the bunker to a point short of the green and only then does it begin to rise up to the green.

IF you would look more carefully at the third picture you posted you can see just how steep the downslope just over the bunker is.

You should really consult me before making definitive comments about NGLA. ;D
And, if this is an indication of your ability to interpret photos at Merion, I'd say that you're photo-analysis skills are in deep trouble.

Who supplied you with those photos ?

Who helped you arrive at your erroneous conclusions ?






« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 11:28:40 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #846 on: September 12, 2011, 11:30:59 PM »
Jim,

I saw other names and found that no one had submitted the information.

TEP is a friend of mine and asked a favor of me, I had no hesitation in complying.


Bob, I"m  very fond of you and I"m fond of TEPaul, but, I think you erred on this one.

I can see Mike Cirba shilling for TEPaul, but you ? ;D

In addition, the first sentence of the second paragraph has a glaring error in it.

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #847 on: September 13, 2011, 08:06:02 AM »
Pat,

Once again, I speak for myself.

The pics are from Ran's NGLA profile on this site.

Who's feeding you information? 

Can't you see this is the type of insulting nonsense that is poisoning this site?

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #848 on: September 13, 2011, 09:16:25 AM »
Jim,

Interesting response from David to your question re: where he notes that he cannot determine with any degree of specificity CBM's role in the planning of Merion, unless we had their original design plans.   He wrote;

You stated above that you see this hole, among others, as the best evidence that the Merion committee designed and built the holes with input and advice from HJW and CBM.  While I agree that these holes and others leave little doubt that Merion's Committee built the course with the input and advice from HJW and CBM, our difference seems to come down to the nature and extent of that input and advice, and the degree to which it was followed.  Agreed?

Along those lines, I do not know the precise level of specificity of CBM's input in the planning --we'd need to see the plans they were working on at NGLA and finalized Merion to know that. That is why I have always concentrated on hole concepts and hole placements, and from all I have see, I believe that CBM and HJW played a major role in determining these.


This is an amazing couple of paragraphs.   First, you'll notice the tricky word games.   Initially, he tries to get you to agree to something you clearly do not.   He says that while he agrees with you that Merion's Committee "built" the course with advice and input from CBM, et.al., your differences come down to the nature and extent of that advice.   You'll note he never says he agrees with your basic belief that the Committee was largely responsible for the DESIGN of the course, or even involved at all in that DESIGN process.

David then states pure supposition as fact in concluding that they were working on the design plans for Merion while visiting NGLA, and then working on them again while at Merion.

I would ask David to supply us one bit of concrete evidence from anyone...Tillinghast, members of the Committee, Hugh Wilson, CBM and/or Whigham themselves who ever said that CBM and Whigham either routed a single hole at Merion and/or designed any of the internal features of any hole at Merion.   He can't, because no such evidence exists.

Hugh Wilson told us that the first night at NGLA they spent looking at CBM's maps and drawings from abroad and the next touring the course.   In neither of his accounts, either the one that appears in the April 1911 MCC Minutes, or his 1916 article for P&O does he say they worked on the design layout of Merion.   It would certainly be reasonable to believe it was discussed in concept but it is not known as fact, nor did anyone who was there ever say they did.

His brother Alan said that CBM and Whigham "advised as to OUR plans."

Richard Francis didn't mention them at all, nor did Alex Findlay or Tillinghast in their Opening day articles.

Similarly, Wilson did not tell us that they were working on the design plans during CBM's visit to Merion.   He told us that CBM helped them pick (of which he approved) the best of the five "different" plans the Committee had come back after their visit to NGLA and laid out.  

In fact, no one ever, including Whigham, stated as fact that CBM and Whigham were involved in the creation of the routing or the creation in internal hole designs at all, did they?    Most of the accounts spoke of the value of the agronomic and construction and teaching hole principles advice, specifically.

Finally, David would have us believe that if he was holding the design map, only he has the super-intelligence to unlock the key after 100 years.   He would have us believe that if only he had that in his possession that he could tell us what was CBM's and what was the Committee's, and probably what was Barker's as well.

It really is amazing.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 09:19:25 AM by MCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #849 on: September 13, 2011, 09:31:35 AM »
Pat,

Once again, I speak for myself.

The pics are from Ran's NGLA profile on this site.

Who's feeding you information? 

Can't you see this is the type of insulting nonsense that is poisoning this site?

Mike,

You made a false claim, presenting a false fact and drawing a false conclusion regarding the configuration of the land between the fronting bunker at # 3 at NGLA, in order to support or reinforce your point about the land between the fronting bunker and green at the old 10th at Merion.

You were dead wrong regarding the FACTS and you were dead wrong regarding your conclusion and you were dead wrong in trying to draw an analogy between # 3 at NGLA and # 10 at Merion.

And, when I correct you, you have the nerve to tell me that, "that's the type of insulting nonsense that's poisoning this site".

You make a wild, factually incorrect statement and when you're corrected your response is to state that the presentation of the FACTS and the TRUTH and the refutation of FALSE statements is insulting and poisoning this site.

One would hope that the underlying theme/foundation for these discussions/debates/arguments is "intellectual honesty"

What bothers me is that you had a motive for making that false statement.
You hoped that by stating that the land between the fronting bunker and green at # 3 at NGLA would disprove and/or undermine David's contention that the land between the fronting bunker and green at # 10 sloped down to the green, making the hole blind.

You were attempting to discredit his position by presenting false or factually incorrect information.
And, few on this site would know that you were dead wrong.
Many would accept your false claim and reason that David must be wrong about # 10.
That's disengenuous.
If anything, the 3rd photo YOU posted shows the steep incline from the fronting bunker down toward the green.

What's hurting this site is when knowingly false statements are presented as fact.