Pine Valley and Topos

[Jeff_Brauer]

The topo map prepared for Crump was dated March 1913.

Colt visited in May and sent his plan in July 1913.  This plan doesn't show a topo, but we would have to think he used it since it was available.

The red mark plan shows Colts routing and is on the detailed topo.  BTW, while it also shows the Colt bunkering plan, there are enough differences to let us know that the Colt plan was traced onto this plan.

It would follow that the red marks occurred after July 1913, although, we don't know how much past, and it certainly could have been a period of several years.  The red marks show routing changes from Colts plan to 2 and 3 and from 11 to 16.  The red marks aren't even the final routing, since 14 and 15 change and final 14 can be seen in a thin black line, probably added even later.

Colt's plan sure looks like the bunkering proposals are sort of typical parkland course, rather than sandy waste, and the red marks almost totally over ride his bunker proposals, including the Hells Half Acre on 7, which Tillie took credit for.  Perhaps if there are some known dates of Tillies involvement, that would shed some light.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,  If you agree with my a lot of my post then why have you been going on and on about how Crump discoverd the land from a passing train? If Crump had previously been hunting over the same land, then he didn't discover it from a passing train.  One rarely "discover" one's own yard by riding by and pointing at it.

As for your link, what "additional information" do you think it provides?  I'd say it is useless to our purposes because it is not only undated, but also it was obviously created after Pine Valley was built.  Look again at the list I posted above.  There is no Sumner Station on that list. Here is a 1913 map on which I've marked the approx. location of the course in green.  Clementon Station is there, but again, no Sumner Station. Whether or not Sumner Station ever existed prior to Pine Valley, it doesn't seem to have been an active station during the specific period we are discussing.  Perhaps it was a freight station associated with the quarrying activities, but was no longer in use.


David,

The Sumner Station existed in the timeframe in question as can be seen from the following quotes;

"I think I have landed on something pretty fine.   It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Sumner, on the Reading R.R. to Atlantic City - a sandy soil, with rolling ground, among the Pines." - George Crump 1912

"The region outside of Camden was searched in all directions, until, finally, Mr. George A. Crump discovered a perfectly wonderful bit of golf land at Sumner Station, on the Atlantic City Division of the Reading Railroad, thirteen miles outside of Camden." - Father Carr, January 1915
Mike,

Sumner appears to NOT have been a passenger stop.
It does NOT appear on the 1908 schedule of stops posted by David.

Interestingly enough, the "Station Pages" you posted, do NOT list the station as "SUMNER", but rather, 'SUMMER"

I suspect, that Sumner Ireland, who owned the land. (directly or indirectly) owned the Lumberton Sand Co, and had a commercial/freight stop that serviced his business.  Thus, the reference isn't to a passenger station, which didn't exist in 1908, but a freight stop.  The fact that there is NO Sumner Station on the 1908 passenger station list would seem to bear this out.

So I think we can put that one to rest, at least.

I know that you'd like to put it to rest, stifle debate and short circuit the presentation of facts undermining your position, but, the issue is not at rest.

Further, I've yet to see any of the quotes that contemporaneously  tell us that Crump "extensively hunted" the specific land in question.  
Neither of two of his very best friends...Tillinghast and/or Carr indicated that to my knowledge.

To posture that the verification of any event or fact hinges upon your knowledge and/or familiarity with the event, is to set back mankind several centuries or millenia.  I believe Joseph Baker hunted with Crump on the Pine Valley site.

As far as commending your post, I particularly like the way you seemed to approach the topic with an open mind.   You said you felt that both the train spotting and the hunting stories had some grain of truth, which is what all of us here with the exception of Tom MacWood and Patrick feel is accurate.

Mike, please don't interpret, "grain of truth" with equal weighting of the two events.
Shelly clearly stated that there was "Proof to the contrary" when it came to the discovery of the land vis a vis a train ride.

In my case, I feel that Crump had decided to build a great course somewhere some time after his wife died but first needed to get his own house in order.   I think this likely happened around 1909.

Isabell Crump died in Sept of 1907.

I think he spotted the land from the train as Tillinghast remembered, but does anyone even know if it was available for sale at that time?  

Shelly says that's not true, Shelly states that he was already familiar with the land.  Shelly produced photos circa 1909.
Why do you keep repeating that Crump FIRST spotted the land from the train when Shelly, in the officially sanctioned history of Pine Valley, clearly states that that's not true ?

I think he searched several sites for a few years.

Tom MacWood and others have stated that he looked at Browns Mills and Absecon.

I think during that time he sold the Colonnade Hotel to finance his dream,
but Tom MacWood tells us that ended up to be a bit of a fiasco requiring his attention most of 1910.

As soon as that matter was settled, Crump with Joseph Baker went abroad for three months to play and presumably study the great courses abroad.   While there, he sent to his brother in law asking for a recent map of Camden County.

Crump requested the map of Camden County on December 1, 1910, during his three month trip to Europe.
Perhaps the exact saiiing dates would help narrow down where Crump was during 1910.
We already know he was hunting on the Pine Valley site in 1909.

For whatever reasons, we know from Tillinghast the Crump largely kept this topic to himself for some time.  
Perhaps the land wasn't available...perhaps the price was exorbitant...perhaps Crump had other affairs to take care of prior.

Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps.  All speculation on your part.

We do know at some point that Crump began to motor back to the land in question and studying it.  
It would be reasonable to assume he also had a gun and hunted while there.

Why ?
If his purpose was to study the land for it's golf potential, why would he divert his attention by hunting it since he had already hunted it on prior occassions.  

We also know he took select friends like Tillinghast and Perrin out there to get their take.

On what date did he take AWT ?

In any case, the project finally gained traction in the latter part of 1912 when he was able to buy the land.

Just a few more thoughts....

Although it's been consistently presented as "in his backyard", the land of Pine Valley was 12.5 miles away from Crump's home in Merchantville, NJ, without a major highway to get from one to the other.  
Today, via auto, Mapquest estimates the trip to take almost half-hour (27min).  

Once again, you make a completely false statement.
The White Horse Pike (Turnpike) was a major highway that went from Camden to Clementon.

As to Map Quest's estimated time, I've made it in far less, it's mostly dependent upon how many lights you catch.

The fact is, it was just down the road.  12.5 miles is and was nothing in terms of distance in those days.
In addition, the White Horse Pike, established in 1854 ran from Camden right through Clementon, so, please, cease your attempts at revisionist history, it's disengenuous to say the least.  And, according to you, he could just hop a train and be in Sumner/Clementon in a jiff.

Crump's family was a prominent Merchantville family, Crump grew up in Merchantville, attending grammar and high school in Merchantville.
Crump played golf as early as the 1890's at the Merchantville Country Club.

For you to state that Clementon was too far for him to be familiar with the Clementon area is beyond belief, especially when Shelly stated that Crump hunted on the very property that would become Pine Valley.  Shelly produced a photo of Crump, sitting in the wilderness, on the site that would become Pine Valley.  Yet, you're telling us it was too far for him to travel.  Crump was a member of St David's, Philadelphia Country Club, Torresdale Country Club, Huntington Valley Country Club and others, so apparently he didn't mind traveling.  I wonder if there were any major highways connecting his house in Merchantville to the front gates of those clubs ?

While he may have hunted there, it certainly wasn't around the block.

It sure was.  12.5 miles on the White Horse Pike was a very short journey

But more importantly, one has to wonder...

"More importantly" ?  ?  ?   According to whom ?

Living in Merchantville, NJ, and travelling to Atlantic City, NJ by train, which station would George Crump have gotten on the train at?  ;

Take your pick

[Tom MacWood]

The topo map prepared for Crump was dated March 1913.

Colt visited in May and sent his plan in July 1913.  This plan doesn't show a topo, but we would have to think he used it since it was available.

The red mark plan shows Colts routing and is on the detailed topo.  BTW, while it also shows the Colt bunkering plan, there are enough differences to let us know that the Colt plan was traced onto this plan.

It would follow that the red marks occurred after July 1913, although, we don't know how much past, and it certainly could have been a period of several years.  The red marks show routing changes from Colts plan to 2 and 3 and from 11 to 16.  The red marks aren't even the final routing, since 14 and 15 change and final 14 can be seen in a thin black line, probably added even later.

Colt's plan sure looks like the bunkering proposals are sort of typical parkland course, rather than sandy waste, and the red marks almost totally over ride his bunker proposals, including the Hells Half Acre on 7, which Tillie took credit for.  Perhaps if there are some known dates of Tillies involvement, that would shed some light.

You are confusing the two Colt plans, the plan with red lines is the plan that appeared in the Inquirer in 1914, which is different from the July 1913 plan. Why do you find a need to interject yourself into these discussions?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

As I've stated previously, I don't know how to post images on GCA.com.

Can you post the different Colt plans, understanding that their clarity may not be the best, but, at least we'll be able to see the non-nuanced differences.

What's the date of the plan below ?



In terms of accuracy, the 12th fairway seems far too close to the 15th hole, and, the 12th hole seems far too removed from the 7th green/8th tee.  I also noticed that the 15th hole appears to have a bunker/waste area short of the green.  This would appear to be the  early and not the final rendition that addresses holes 12-15 ?

Are there any 1919-22 aerial photos available ?

Since TEPaul is lurking, 1925 aerials seem to indicate that the 13th green IS visible from the 13th tee as the woods to the left of # 13 fairway have been cleared.  Same for # 12,  And, the dual fairway on # 17 is clearly visible.

Geoff Shackelford reported that Colt spent a week with Crump "surveying" the site. 

Critical to some holes at PV is the dam and water wheel works behind # 17 tee.
Ascertaining the date of construction would help establish a time line.

Perhaps # 14 and 15 couldn't be built until the lake was created.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Why do you need to be such an idiot and flaming asshole.  Go jump off a bridge jerk.  You should be shot.

[DMoriarty]

TMac,

Why do you need to be such an idiot and flaming asshole.  Go jump off a bridge jerk.  You should be shot.

You should learn to control yourself, especially given your habit of sermonizing about what you perceive to be the bad behavior of others.  

_____________________

As for your post above, are you again shilling here for TEPaul, or did you make all that up yourself?  Either way, I am not interested in your speculation or his.   If you have facts, then bring them forward.  If not then I join in TMacWood's question.  

[Tom MacWood]

Pat
I don't have the ability to post pictures either.

Its difficult to see in your picture, but there are blue lines underneath the red lines in your drawing. The Colt blue lines appeared in the Inquirer in 1/1914. That original image was posted on the other PV thread not too long ago (it is also on the Ed Oden thread). If you remember there was a demand it be taken down because of confusion between it and the 7/1913 drawing.

The red lines drawn over the blue lines are undated, and unattributed.

I would agree it is transitional version of 12-15.

There are no aerials from that time frame that I'm aware of.

When that lake was created, I believe, was covered on that other thread, and you might be right about 14 and 15.

[Mike Cirba]

So I guess George Crump sent a letter to all of his friends telling them about his idea for building a golf course at some unknown or not yet created "Freight Stop" that none of them would have been familiar with?  I guess Father Carr would have referenced the unknown or not yet created "Freight Stop" when he was telling his story two years later??

A station schedule from 1908 is offered as proof that the stop at Sumner didn't exist in 1910?

God, this place once again becomes a freaking joke now that Tweedle-Dee, Tweedle-Dumb, and Tweedle-Dumber are back here in full force.

Now that all three "Moronics", or "Blind Mice" are back in session, it's quickly turns to circus time.

Cue the calliope music.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I will valiantly try to let others combat the nonsense.

David,

You lie again, because I am not shilling for TePaul.  I felt I had something to offer and also spent an hour going over the red/blue plan, trying to add bits that might add to the PV timeline, which is interesting to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Many old structures had cornerstones or date plates indicating the year of completion.
When I"m there next I'll look to see if there are any date markings.  It's reported that the lake was created in 1915-1916.
Perhaps it was this late date that allowed the 14th and 15th holes to take form.

The electricity generated by that dam and water wheel structure were used to power the clubhouse and other facilities.
It's a clever idea, a twofer, create ponds/lakes for the golf course and generate power for the club.

If you look at the schematic below, you can see how the routings attempt to avoid that area since it was deemed swamp.
Someone, cleverly dammed the area, created holes within it and the capacity to generate power for the club.



It would seem that the individual who came up with the idea leading to the dual usage should get significant credit.

Supposedly, the genesis for the 14th and 15th holes was Crump's discovery/alteration in 1915 of the site for the 13th green, which led tot the reconfiguration of # 14 and # 15.

Could the creation of the lake and the resiting of the 13th green be connected in terms of the final routing ?

Perhaps the delay in holes 12-15, primarily 14 & 15 was the time necessary for the lake to form.
If the project to create the lake was undertaken in 1915-1916, perhaps it took a year or more for the lake to mature into its final configuration,  World War I might have influenced the pace of development/construction as well.

Crump's resiting of the 13th green could have triggered the need to dam the outfall and create a lake, and new holes along with it.

In viewing some 1922-1925 ground and aerial photos, I noticed how dense the trees in the non-cleared areas surrounding the corridors of play are.
In addition, it's apparent that the height of many trees is well over 40', even in the cleared areas.

[Patrick_Mucci]

My interest in the topos was triggered by several factors/features.
Amongst, but not limited to them are the following:

The 1st green.

The footpad for the entire 5th fairway and green.

The fairway approach short of # 15.

Area right of the 6th fairway.
Area behind # 9 green
Area left of # 12 & # 13.
17th & 18th holes.

Simon Carr's description portrays a hostile site.
The steep slopes found throughout the course combined with the swamp/bog portray a similiar picture.

When hunting, common sense dictates that hunters would avoid the hostile areas, diminishing familiarity, thus, wouldn't topos be the critical tool in understanding the terrain and it's potential for a golf course ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

So I guess George Crump sent a letter to all of his friends telling them about his idea for building a golf course at some unknown or not yet created "Freight Stop" that none of them would have been familiar with?  

You'll notice that Crump didn't call it the "Sumner Station".
He called it "A stop" on the Reading R.R.
In the letter you cite, Crump described the site as "among the pines"
You may recall how you previously refuted the site being forested with Pines, yet Crump, along with Simon Carr tells us so.
It's amazing how you twist your logic and use the same source to unknowingly contradict yourself.

Why do YOU claim it was an "unknown" stop ?
Why do YOU claim that none of them would be familiar with it ?
It was a point of reference, nothing more.


I guess Father Carr would have referenced the unknown or not yet created "Freight Stop" when he was telling his story two years later??
YOU are the ONLY one claiming it was unknown.

The situation is analogous to the "stop" that trains made at Croton on Hudson - Harmon, NY when going to or coming from Penn Station in New York City.

In New York City, the tracks go underground into at tunnel at about 96th street, down to about 34th street, thus diesel or coal burning locomotives couldn't be used for that portion of the journey.
So, they created a "stop" at Croton on Hudson - Harmon, where the engines would be switched to or from an Electric powered Engines.

Everyone knew about the stop.  It was another point of reference.
If the engines didn't have to be swithched, most of the the trains NEVER would have stopped there

A station schedule from 1908 is offered as proof that the stop at Sumner didn't exist in 1910?

If it was an operating passenger station, why wouldn't it be on the schedule ?

God, this place once again becomes a freaking joke now that Tweedle-Dee, Tweedle-Dumb, and Tweedle-Dumber are back here in full force.
Now that all three "Moronics", or "Blind Mice" are back in session, it's quickly turns to circus time.
Cue the calliope music.

Whenever you lose a debate you often resort to these generalized hystrionics.

[Dan Herrmann]

As an aside, to post a picture, you need to do the following:
1.  If you want to share your own picture, upload the picture to a picture sharing website.  Photo Bucket (www.photobucket.com) is a good one.

2.  Determine the URL address of the pictue you want to share.  Normally this can be done by can right-clicking on the photo and choose "Copy Shortcut" or "Copy image URL"

3.  In a GCA.com post, enter {img}http://and paste the URL from step 2.  After the URL, enter{/img} (SUBSTITUTE [ FOR {} )

Trust me, it sounds a LOT more complicated than it is.

For example, here's a picture we all like:

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

You spew more dis-informative garbage in a single post than all of the open sewers of Calcutta.   Yes, it was both a stop and a station, and it served both passenger and freight service.  

Other than that, I'm done addressing your nonsense.

For anyone truly interested in some of the actual facts and timelines here rather than just more speculative nonsense, it appears that Crump had been trying to unload the Colonnade Hotel for some time after the death of his wife;

On February 11, 1909, it was reported under the headline "$1,000,000 Hotel for Philadelphia" that;

"Negotiations have almost been completed for the sale of the Colonnade Hotel at the southwest corner of 15th and Chestnut Streets to a company headed by a well-known hotel man, which will remove the old building and erect on the site a 20-story hotel to cost about $1,000,000."

"The price agreed upon for the ground occupied by the Colonnade...is said to be $1,250,000.   This will be paid to Martin E. Greenhouse, who two years ago entered into an agreement with the Crump estate to take over the property within three years at a price reported to be about $1,000,000...."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

If it was a passenger station, WHY isn't it listed on the 1908 schedule of station stops ?

[Joe Bausch]

As an aside, to post a picture, you need to do the following:
1.  If you want to share your own picture, upload the picture to a picture sharing website.  Photo Bucket (www.photobucket.com) is a good one.

2.  Determine the URL address of the pictue you want to share.  Normally this can be done by can right-clicking on the photo and choose "Copy Shortcut" or "Copy image URL"

3.  In a GCA.com post, enter {img}http://and paste the URL from step 2.  After the URL, enter{/img} (SUBSTITUTE [ FOR {} )

Trust me, it sounds a LOT more complicated than it is.

For example, here's a picture we all like:

Dan, many members at GolfClubAltas cannot apparently figure out how to post pictures.  Heck, you don't even have to go through the above steps if you simply use tinypic.com

I'm guessing those that can't figure it out actually have a broken keyboard and either the '[' or ']' keys are non-functional.

I find this completely amazing, quite frankly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

You're forgetting the adage about old dogs and new tricks.

Download ?  URL ? Paste ?  Substitute ?  What kind of language is this ?

Since I don't have the pictures on a digital camera and I don't have a flat screen scanner, but rather the feeder type, I'm out of the loop on this for the time being.

[JESII]

Give me break. I have logically explained why the Tilly 1910 train story makes little sense.

1. Crump was not playing golf in 1910. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
2. Tilly was playing little or no golf in 1910 because of his involvement at Shawnee. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
3. Crump considered two other sites prior to settling on the current site in 1912. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
4. Every other contemporaneous source other than Tilly said Crump found the site hunting. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
5. You and no other person on this thread can explain why Crump looking out the train on this train trip was any different then GAC looking out the train window on the other fifty passes by the site.

You have presented nothing, and please did not read this as an invitation for you to post another bunch of unrelated articles for the tenth time.

Tom,

1 - We know he went on a three month golf trip in 1910. We know he didn't play any of the local club events that year. Otherwise, you have no idea how much golf he played, none! You have absolutely no basis to make the claim #1.

2 - Tillinghast played in the US Open AND US Amateur in 1910. Wrong on point #2.

3 - How does this do anything to the possibiities of the train story? Point#3 is an intentional misdirection...and a worthless statement.

4 - So what? It's pretty easy to imagine he first walked the site on a hunting trip either before or after being intrigued by it from the train.

5 - Could be the same as you needing to be explained 50 times that just because it doesn't "seem logical" to you doesn't actually mean it couldn't have happened.




Question for everybody on ths thread: Are we debating whether Crump first became aware this location existed from the train versus on foot? Or are we debating whether or not he first thought about it for his golf course from the train or on foot?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

You've driven on East Atlantic Ave dozens and dozens of times.
It's a few feet away from the RR tracks.

Tell me what, other than the amuzement park, is intriquing on either side of the road ?

I'll take pictures next month

Since Tom and David are superior researchers, perhaps they could obtain a 1910 map of Camden County.
That would be an interesting start, since GAC requested that document to facilitate his search and selection.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

In answer to your question, it really doesn't matter.

I think anyone fair-minded without a pre-stated agenda would find that both stories were true, and it truly doesn't matter what came first.

I think it's clear that throughout his life, as he reported in three publications contemporaneously in early 1913, and again in 1933, AW Tillinghast believed that his good friend and traveling golf partner George A. Crump discovered the site for golf from the Atlantic City railway and reported his belief.   Whether Crump had hunted the property prior or after really doesn't matter at all.   If Crump had any issues with Tilly's story he certainly could have mentioned it, or disputed it any time in the next 5 years, and I believe Tilly loved Crump enough to correct the story by 1933 after Crump's death, or at the least, not repeat it again had he reported in error.

The whole issue is a red herring designed to discredit Tillinghast because Tom MacWood, David Moriarty, and to a lesser extent, Patrick have a stated agenda to uncover Philadelphia "myths", no matter how they have to twist facts and create outright misinformation in order to do so.

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer,

What the hell is wrong with you?  You just accused me of conspiring to commit murder.  Your accusation is false, outrageous, and actionable.  It is libelous per se.  You need to delete your post and refrain from defaming me in the future.  

Ironic that in a post where you claim to be independent of your pal, you continue to try and do his bidding.

[JESII]

Pat,

We've been through this. What you would see today is more or less totally unrelated to what you may have seen 100 years ago. You have come up with no evidence of 40 foot tall trees anywhere on the property and I don't believe there were any. Every picture I've seen show scrawny little pines that wouldn't obstruct a thing from the seat of the train.

By the way, a page or so ago you were hypothesizing that the area down by the lake was bought later...where did you come up with that?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

If you'd talk to TE Paul, you'd get a better understanding of how this thread originated.

It was all about the terrain and the natural and manufactured elements at PV.

You were the one who diverted the thread away from the topo/terrain issues when you tried to reinforce the myth

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

By the way, the information I presented a few posts ago shows that Crump was trying to sell his hotel from back in 1907 around the time of the death of his wife.

To believe, as has been presented and perpetuated here, that all of this started around 1912 would be a very incorrect assumption.

[SPDB]

Below is a timetable for the Atlantic City Railroad from "The Official Guide of the Railways and Steam Navigation Lines of the United States, Porto Rico, Canada, Mexico and Cuba" published in January 1908. It clearly shows a stop for Sumner station along that line.