Pine Valley and Topos

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

I clicked on your link and the Clementon Station is shown as being on the main line, not a branch.

Not sure what you are trying to pull here, but you seem to be mistaken.

BTW, I don't care how you cut it, Tillie got his info from Crump, as evidenced by him NOT reporting it until Crump allows him to.  Thus, I doubt he got the train story from a third party.  He reported what Crump wanted him to report.  Is it possible that Crump told him the train story because it sounded romantic?  Yes.  Is it likely? Maybe.  Has anyone proven anything like that he actually did make up a legend? Not at all. 

Certainly your pompous gasbagging doesn't prove a thing, as you keep pounding the drum that you couldn't tell this land was different than the surrounding land from a window. I recall knowing it was different from a bus window, and that is all the proof I need to that Crump could have seen something unique from a train window.

Again, not sure why or what you are trying to pull with this excersise, but I'm not buying.

And yes, I did answer your original thread question.  Worthy of discussion (if also unanswerable) and its a shame this has turned into another one of those threads.  It does occur to me that "another one of those threads" was your intention.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

You are wrong on every count and you're beginning to appear both desperate and foolish.

I suggest you drop your latest advisors, as your success with them is equivalent to Tiger's with Sean Foley.

You picked the losing team and yo're playing worse than the Mets these days.

Quit while your behind.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

It also occurred to me that if you started this thread, you would have been accused by Patrick of an agenda of some sort.  And he resorts to his old tricks of calling you intellectually dishonest, while at the same time, flat out misrepresenting that Clementon wasn't on the main line from Camden to Atlantic City.  Maybe he thought we were going to be intellectually lazy, and never check his sources, and accept his word?

For instance, on the rail map he uses, he suggests the red and black lines are branches and mains, while the map legend clearly shows that they are different railroads completely.  He doesn't really care for facts, just blustery arguments.  As I said, "pompous windbag" comes to mind every time I see green type now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

It also occurred to me that if you started this thread, you would have been accused by Patrick of an agenda of some sort.

Which sort of agenda ?
You continue to throw out vague generalizations absent supporting evidence.
I"ve learned to discount most of what you state. 

And he resorts to his old tricks of calling you intellectually dishonest, while at the same time, flat out misrepresenting that Clementon wasn't on the main line from Camden to Atlantic City.

It wasn't.
If you'll look below, you clearly stated that the black line and red line were two seperate railroads.
That's correct.
And, on the West Jersey and Seashore Railroad, the black line, Clementon is listed as one of the BRANCH Lines, not the Main Line.

Branch Lines:
Millville
Clementon
Cape May
Ocean City
Wildwood
Penns Grove

The next time you accuse someone of being intellectually dishonest, get your facts right first.


Maybe he thought we were going to be intellectually lazy, and never check his sources, and accept his word?

No, I didn't think you were lazy, just stupid.
Clementon is listed on the West Jersey and Seashore Line as a Branch Line, not a main line.
Now, tell me again how I'm being intellectually dishonest.

For instance, on the rail map he uses, he suggests the red and black lines are branches and mains, while the map legend clearly shows that they are different railroads completely.  He doesn't really care for facts, just blustery arguments.  As I said, "pompous windbag" comes to mind every time I see green type now.

Jeff, just consider yourself mousetrapped.
You're the one with his facts wrong.
Clementon is listed as a "Branch Line" on the West Jersey and Seashore Railroad Lines

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sorry Patrick, but when I click on your Atlantic City RR page, its shown as a mainline station.  When I click on the West Jersey and Seashore Line you cite, I see no Clementon Branch.  Perhaps you can give me a direct link. I do see a branch line in black on that page that seems to end at Clementon just douth of the ACRR railroad, which is a through line.

But for you to have me believe that Crump and Tillie wouldn't take the ACRR mainline (and there was another nearby main, too, but that didn't go by PV) rather than a branch that stopped in Clementon is ridiculous, and a stretch on your part.  The AC RR is the one that goes by PV as a main line.  FACT.  It still runs as a mainline today, whoever owns it after years of corporate consolidation and govt takeover of commuter railroads, and still shows going by PV.

Perhaps your agenda is just that you like arguing.  I would post a justification for it, other than for the life of me, I cannot figure it out.  I suspect your foray into railroad history revisionism comes more from failing eyesight and a desire to prove yourself right rather than intellectual dishonesty.

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW, Tillie says they were going to Northfield, site of both the ACCC and what is now Linwood CC.  That was on the line that ran by PV.  That line has been abandoned east of Winslow Jct. as those many railroads merged over the years, making two or three lines to AC redundant.  They seem to combine at Winslow Jct.

You can trace much of the Pilly and AC line on an aerial photo, as their are traces of it all the way to the Atlantic City Airport.  You can see old ROW, places where the property lines are still affected, and even some old bridges and new rail connections.

As you can tell by this 1:30 AM posting, it perturbs me when someone like Patrick goes so far as to call some of us liars (using whatever words he likes as substitutes) stupid, and what not when he cannot even read a damn map or get it right.  No reason for that kind of behavior on a web site like this.  He has no facts, makes up others, and relies on his ability to discern what someone might have seen from a train window 100 years ago.

And, for what matter?  Crump discovered the property in question.  He routed a course by walking it and with topos, to what degree of each, it matters not.

Again, pompous gasbag are about the only things I can think to call him.  Deservedly so.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

With your 2011 glasses on, YOU can't see the Atlantic.  If you were around in 1907, perhaps you could have, from the higher points that I identified.  Happily, neither of us were around then, so neither of US can definitively say. But then, the people who were around at the time said they could.  But we KNOW that they were delusional.  

But then, you can be delusional too, what with your attachment to the heavily traveled main highway running through the course.  



............................


You don't have to debate with yourself.  You could debate the points in the following where I have given you my photo interpretation.


With regard to the picture below, how high is the hill on the left relative to the tracks?  To the base of the pines in the foreground?  

How high is the embankment leading from the pond to the tracks?

What was the setback of the tree line from the tracks in 1910?

Do the pictures that you mentioned in your initial post show the pre-construction lay of the land?  Have you been able to get a picture of them or scan them yet so we could post them.  They would be helpful in persuading me and others.

I'll let you figure those things out.

I have no desire to persuade you and others as I would be attempting to persuade you against your will, and after production of the data, you'd be unpersuaded still

You never know, I might be persuaded by rational supported argument.   Grin

Let me answer the questions above, since you won't.

The hill ramping up to the left side of the picture is about 50 feet higher at it's peak than the tracks and maybe 70 feet higher than the pond. The trees are nowhere near as tall as the hill.  Maybe they are 25 to 30 feet at most, and they would have been shorter in 1910.  And, pretty scrawny.  

The embankment from pond to RR track looks to be about 15 to 20 feet.  The trees immediately across the tracks do not appear to be any taller than the embankment.

The setback would have been around 25 feet.  Enough so that Crump just might have looked at an angle down the tracks and seen the hills as the train approached them.  Surely he would not have sat immobile looking straight out at 90* to the train, would he?


And, if I could add one more question, the RR embankment in the right part of the picture has no trees.  Did Crump clear them?  Or did the RR do it when they built the tracks?  The embankment was probably built to support the RR tracks as they passed the pond.  Even if there were trees at the bottom in 1910, they'd have to have been pretty tall to rise above the tracks and the train car and obscure the view over the pond.  And, since the forest appears to be a mixed deciduous and pine forest there would likely have been reasonable views through it in the fall, winter and early spring.  Even the undergrowth would be barren in those seasons.



 If you do take pictures, I'd be happy to post them for you.  If you could get pictures of the pictures in the book you described in the first posting, I'd be happy to post those too.  Always standing by to serve you.  

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Is that a picture of the Shinnecock Hills area circa 1907?

Thanks.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Obviously the RR was cleared for building.  For that matter, the road was cleared too.  Both allowed peeps into the site, enough to show sandy soil.

I can't tell for sure, but it appears there is a band of exposed sandy soil betwen the road and the RR bank, just above the pond.  It might also be water.

In either case, just the trees near the tee aren't as thick as in some spots across the tracks.  That road in front of the tee might have been existing, not built for golf.  It wouldn't take much of an opening to see that the property was different.  He wouldn't have to see full golf holes.

Patrick is really something.  I enjoyed tracing some old rail lines because of this thread, but that is all the value it has to me.  Enjoy arguing with an idiot if you decide to continue.

Cheers to all, including Patrick.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

Is that a picture of the Shinnecock Hills area circa 1907?

Thanks.

Yes, courtesy of David Moriarty on the lengthy NGLA thread.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Thanks...the funny thing is that it shows exactly what everyone said back then...that the area had wide open spaces with long views, as well as areas of dense, low growth as can be seen in the foreground and along the right side of the photograph.   There was also a fair amount of swampland in the lower elevations closer to the bays.  

CBM told us that most of the land he chose was a mix of dense thickets of bushy growth on sand and low-lying swampy areas that was accessible only on horseback.   I'm not sure why some chose not to believe him?

I'm also thinking that he was originally looking at all of the land of Sebonac Neck, which was over 450 acres and included today's Sebonack Golf Club which is at a higher elevation.   I'd guess that one could view the Atlantic from some of the higher spots of that property with such open long views as the picture shows.

After all, that is the Atlantic Ocean out to the right of the photo, yes?

[Bryan Izatt]

Yes, it is the Atlantic, but I don't think that we want to go over all that again.  Patrick will never be persuaded on these two points, nor will you be persuaded on other points.  I was just funning Patrick.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Thanks...the funny thing is that it shows exactly what everyone said back then...that the area had wide open spaces with long views, as well as areas of dense, low growth as can be seen in the foreground and along the right side of the photograph.   There was also a fair amount of swampland in the lower elevations closer to the bays.  

Mike,

The photo was not taken from ANYWHERE on the Sebonack property.
Not NGLA and NOT Sebonack.
It's taken at Canoe Place, which is just west of the Shinnecock Canal and about 3 miles from NGLA
Try being honest when presenting or supporting posted info


CBM told us that most of the land he chose was a mix of dense thickets of bushy growth on sand and low-lying swampy areas that was accessible only on horseback.   I'm not sure why some chose not to believe him?

I'm also thinking that he was originally looking at all of the land of Sebonac Neck, which was over 450 acres and included today's Sebonack Golf Club which is at a higher elevation.   I'd guess that one could view the Atlantic from some of the higher spots of that property with such open long views as the picture shows.

Your dishonesty knows no bounds.
The statement was that you could view both bodies of water from EVERYWHERE on the property except the low lying portions..
How convenient of you to alter the direct quote to say that you could view it from some of the higher spots on the property.
CBM was also specific about his search, it was East of Sebonack, he describes the holes and their location and it's not anywhere near the Sebonack property's elevations.

After all, that is the Atlantic Ocean out to the right of the photo, yes?

Yes, it is, but, the photo is taken from West of the Shinnecock Canal, and as we all know, NGLA is about 3 miles east of the Shinnecock Canal.

Can we ever expect you to begin being candid ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Before responding to Jeff, Bryan & Mike, I thought it would be of interest for you to know that a member who first played Pine Valley in 1925, who initiated his membership in 1928, wrote, in a document officially sanctioned by Pine Valley, that the train story was newspaper driven, and that Crump, who grew up about 8 miles from PV was very familiar with the property long before the "syndicate" decided to site and build a golf course.  Which occured in the fall of 1912.  Remember that date.

What's misleading many is Crump's description of the location of the property, where he references the location vis a vis milage and a nearby train stop.

The author of the official document states,

"Some reporting by the press at the time mentioned Crump had seen the property from the train, BUT, THERE IS PROOF THAT IN FACT HE KNEW THE GROUNDS BY TRAMPING THROUGH THEM WITH HIS GUN AND DOGS WHILE HUNTING FOR SMALL GAME WITH WHICH THE PROPERTY WAS WELL BLESSED.  A PHOTO OF CRUMP RESTING AMID THE PINES IN 1909 IS TESTIMONY OF THAT FACT.

I have that photo.

Now I know that Mike Cirba and Jeff Brauer, with egg all over their faces, and Bryan with a little yoke on his face as well, will try to deconstruct and undermine the official position of Pine Valley when it comes to their history.  But, the record seems sufficiently documented in PV's sanctioned history.

The train story is a myth, a sensationalized newspaper account, and nothing more

So cling to your train story, it's romantic, unfortunately, Pine Valley didn't and doesn't accept it as an accurate or factual version.

Now, can we get back to the site itself and the topo versus field issue, combined with Crump's inexperience at routing and designing courses by "feel"

[Patrick_Mucci]

BTW, Tillie says they were going to Northfield, site of both the ACCC and what is now Linwood CC.  
That was on the line that ran by PV.  

No, it wasn't.  The line ran directly in a straight line from Lindenwold to Clementon to Berlin.
There is NO connecting track directly between the Clementon Station and the tracks adjacent to PV
PV was on a spur or branch line.

That line has been abandoned east of Winslow Jct. as those many railroads merged over the years, making two or three lines to AC redundant.  They seem to combine at Winslow Jct.

Jeff, I believe I already cited Winslow Junction as the major depot/station for multiple lines.

Please look again and you will see that the line that runs through Clementon doesn't run past PV, it runs north of PV to Berlin, the line that runs past PV is a spur or branch line, not the main line.

You can trace much of the Pilly and AC line on an aerial photo, as their are traces of it all the way to the Atlantic City Airport.  
You can see old ROW, places where the property lines are still affected, and even some old bridges and new rail connections.

As you can tell by this 1:30 AM posting, it perturbs me when someone like Patrick goes so far as to call some of us liars (using whatever words he likes as substitutes) stupid, and what not when he cannot even read a damn map or get it right.  No reason for that kind of behavior on a web site like this.  

You're a major contributor when it comes to bad behavior so get off your soap box.
Mike infered/lied/misrepresented positions on numerous occassions, most recently in promoting the photo Bryan posted as being taken from NGLA/Sebonack, when it was taken 3 miles east of NGLA/Sebonack, East of the Shinnecock Canal.  Yet, you suck up and support his every post.

Perhaps misrepresentation is something you embrace.  I don't.

He has no facts, makes up others, and relies on his ability to discern what someone might have seen from a train window 100 years ago.
Yet, you can discern what they saw ?  You argue that you know exactly what they saw ?
An official history, sanctioned and published by PV refutes the myth you cling to.
How do you account for that ?

Would you cite, with specificity, the "facts I made up"  I'd like to see you list them for us.
You're great at making vague, generalized claims, but woefullly lacking in the supply of any supporting documentation and/or facts.


And, for what matter?  
Crump discovered the property in question.  He routed a course by walking it and with topos, to what degree of each, it matters not.

Agree, agree, disagree.

That's the main focus of the thread, with such a hostile environment, and with absolutely no experience in routing and designing a golf course, it's likely that topos played the major role in the design of PV versus some guy walking around in a "jungle" trying to decipher holes from hostile terrain, despite the fact that he was familiar with it.

They cleared 22,000 trees for the golf course.

That hardly sounds like a site that had been cleared or burned to the ground as some have claimed.
There is no evidence of fires or foresting from the early photos.

From 1912 and for six years after, he labored to design and construct the greatest man made course on the planet.

That's a long time.

As to agronomic issues, it seems that the german bent, probably equivalent to velvet bent, was the grass of choice and that it provided good putting surfaces from the very begining..

Again, pompous gasbag are about the only things I can think to call him.  Deservedly so.

You're knowledge of the site at PV is extremely limited, yet you posture yourself as an expert, claiming infallibility with respect to your positions.
That sounds more like a pompous gasbag to me.

Why would you want to perpetuate a myth that PV had already dispelled and debunked ?

[Bradley Anderson]

Before responding to Jeff, Bryan & Mike, I thought it would be of interest for you to know that a member who first played Pine Valley in 1925, who initiated his membership in 1928, wrote, in a document officially sanctioned by Pine Valley, that the train story was newspaper driven, and that Crump, who grew up about 8 miles from PV was very familiar with the property long before the "syndicate" decided to site and build a golf course.  Which occured in the fall of 1912.  Remember that date.

What's misleading many is Crump's description of the location of the property, where he references the location vis a vis milage and a nearby train stop.

The author of the official document states,

"Some reporting by the press at the time mentioned Crump had seen the property from the train, BUT, THERE IS PROOF THAT IN FACT HE KNEW THE GROUNDS BY TRAMPING THROUGH THEM WITH HIS GUN AND DOGS WHILE HUNTING FOR SMALL GAME WITH WHICH THE PROPERTY WAS WELL BLESSED.  A PHOTO OF CRUMP RESTING AMID THE PINES IN 1909 IS TESTIMONY OF THAT FACT.

I have that photo.

Now I know that Mike Cirba and Jeff Brauer, with egg all over their faces, and Bryan with a little yoke on his face as well, will try to deconstruct and undermine the official position of Pine Valley when it comes to their history.  But, the record seems sufficiently documented in PV's sanctioned history.

The train story is a myth, a sensationalized newspaper account, and nothing more

So cling to your train story, it's romantic, unfortunately, Pine Valley didn't and doesn't accept it as an accurate or factual version.

Now, can we get back to the site itself and the topo versus field issue, combined with Crump's inexperience at routing and designing courses by "feel"

This may be one of your best posts Patrick – except for your NGLA journey which I wish you would continue.

It also illustrates that we should be cautious with our sourcing of  newspaper clippings.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

There is a certain irony in you presenting snippets from a course history.  Are you channeling Tom Paul here?   If David were around on this thread, he'd be asking you to produce the original documents.   

It sure would be nice to have those pictures so that I could post them for you.  I'd certainly like to see what Crump looks like resting amongst the pines.  Was he entangled in the jungle-like undergrowth while he rested?   

In any event, sure it's possible that Tillie made up the train story or there was more to it than he reported.  Maybe Crump already knew the property and pointed it out to Tillie while they passed on the train.  Maybe it was even visible to some extent from the train.  Hard to imagine a reason for Tillie to make it up.

Vis-a-vis topo vs walking the ground, if he was hunting there, it couldn't have been all that difficult to walk.  Maybe Carr embellished a bit about the jungle.  For a novice, I would think a topo would be tough to work from to the exclusion of walking the land.  He'd have to have a pretty fertile imagination to use solely a top.  More likely that, if he hunted the property, he both walked the routing and used a topo too.  Are you assuming that he had a topo before the land was cleared or was it surveyed after it was cleared?

Before responding to Jeff, Bryan & Mike, I thought it would be of interest for you to know that a member who first played Pine Valley in 1925, who initiated his membership in 1928, wrote, in a document officially sanctioned by Pine Valley, that the train story was newspaper driven, and that Crump, who grew up about 8 miles from PV was very familiar with the property long before the "syndicate" decided to site and build a golf course.  Which occured in the fall of 1912.  Remember that date.

What's misleading many is Crump's description of the location of the property, where he references the location vis a vis milage and a nearby train stop.

The author of the official document states,

"Some reporting by the press at the time mentioned Crump had seen the property from the train, BUT, THERE IS PROOF THAT IN FACT HE KNEW THE GROUNDS BY TRAMPING THROUGH THEM WITH HIS GUN AND DOGS WHILE HUNTING FOR SMALL GAME WITH WHICH THE PROPERTY WAS WELL BLESSED.  A PHOTO OF CRUMP RESTING AMID THE PINES IN 1909 IS TESTIMONY OF THAT FACT.

I have that photo.

Now I know that Mike Cirba and Jeff Brauer, with egg all over their faces, and Bryan with a little yoke on his face as well, will try to deconstruct and undermine the official position of Pine Valley when it comes to their history.  But, the record seems sufficiently documented in PV's sanctioned history.

The train story is a myth, a sensationalized newspaper account, and nothing more

So cling to your train story, it's romantic, unfortunately, Pine Valley didn't and doesn't accept it as an accurate or factual version.

Now, can we get back to the site itself and the topo versus field issue, combined with Crump's inexperience at routing and designing courses by "feel"

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

In presenting Warner Shelley's 1982 account of Pine Valley, you mysteriously neglected to add a VERY important and relevant paragraph that immediately followed the section you re-typed.

Why?   This from a guy who constantly represents others here as lying and misrepresenting facts?

Shelley goes on to say;

"It could be that, in tramping through the grounds, he saw more of the trees and shrubs than the forest and perhaps only realized the rolling nature and its possibilities when he saw it at a greater distance from the train. In any case, he found a great location for the building of a golf course, no matter how."


I also have the 1909 picture of Crump hunting in the wilderness and frankly, it could be from virtually anywhere.   I'm not sure how Shelley saw that as proof that Crump hunted in the lands of Pine Valley prior, but it's very possible he might have.   After all, he was an avid hunter and those lands were not far from his home, as Shelley points out.

However, as Shelley also points out, Crump may not have tied that land to the idea for a golf course until seeing it from a wider perspective from the train.

It is wholly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest for you to purposefully omit that paragraph and present otherwise.


Also, I never presented that photo of the Shinnecock Hills section as being taken from NGLA or Sebonack and you know that as well.   What I did say is that much of the area was wide open with long views, and it's likely that you could see the Atlantic Ocean from high points on the 450 acres of Sebonac Neck that CBM was considering, and possibly from mid-range points as well.  

The photo clearly shows that the area was much more barren and open than at present, or that we understand simply through our modern "knowledge".
 

[Tom MacWood]

To give the proper context here are a couple of paragraphs from the history in question:

"In the fall of 1912 a few enthusiastic men of the Philadelphia golf district got together to discuss the building of just such a course [a winter course]. Fortunately, George Crump, of Merchantville, NJ, was one of the group. He accepted the assignment of finding a suitable site. It was not long after the he wrote to his friends: 'I think I have landed on something pretty fine. It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Summner, on the Reading RR to Atlantic City--a sandy soil, with rolling ground, among the pines.'

Within a few days a committee was sent to inspect the site. At once, it approved Crump's selection enthusiastically. Some reporting by the press at the time mentioned Crump had seen the property from the train, but, there is proof that in fact he knew the grounds by tramping through them with his gun and dogs while hunting for small game with which the property was well bless. A photo of Crump amid the pines in 1909 is testimony of that fact. It could be that, in tramping through the grounds, he saw more of the trees and shrubs than the forest and perhaps only realized the rolling nature and its possibilities when he saw it at a greater distance from the train. In any case, he found a great location for the building of a golf course, no matter how."

That 'some reporting in the press' is Tilly. To my knowledge he is the only source for that report. Wilson, Travers, Giles, Uzell, and now Shelley, all claimed GAC found the site while hunting. It is also interesting to note that Shelley makes no mention of the two sites Crump considered prior to the present site.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

It would appear that Shelley, who first played the golf course in 1925 and became a member in 1928 did not have all of the important contemporaneous documents at his disposal when he wrote his book in 1982.   If he did, I'm not sure that he didn't make some errors, and incorrect assumptions, including the dates/times of when the group decided to discuss building a course originally.

Later I'll post the supposed smoking gun of a picture of Crump sitting in a forest.   Unless there is more documentation about the photo and where specifically it was taken  I'm not sure how or why Shelley considered that to be "proof" of anything, except that Crump was an avid hunter.

In any case, Shelley doesn't seem so sure about his "proof" when he follows that section by writing;

"It could be that, in tramping through the grounds, he saw more of the trees and shrubs than the forest and perhaps only realized the rolling nature and its possibilities when he saw it at a greater distance from the train.  In any case, he found a great location for the building of a golf course, no matter how."

[Tom MacWood]

What important documents did Shelley not have? 

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Shelley apparently did not have, or misinterpreted, a number of documents based on what you and Patrick have provided.

According to your transcription, Shelley wrote;

"In the fall of 1912 a few enthusiastic men of the Philadelphia golf district got together to discuss the building of just such a course [a winter course]. Fortunately, George Crump, of Merchantville, NJ, was one of the group. He accepted the assignment of finding a suitable site. It was not long after the he wrote to his friends: 'I think I have landed on something pretty fine. It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Summner, on the Reading RR to Atlantic City--a sandy soil, with rolling ground, among the pines."

He makes it sound as though this idea for an Uber course and Crump's assignment to find suitable land began with a meeting in the Fall of 1912.   That is clearly and provably inaccurate.

First, we have Howard Perrin's letter to prospective members, dated April 1st, 1913, which begins;

Dear Sir:

For some years, a number of men who are interested in golf for golf's sake have been thinking about the possibilities of a course easily accessible to Philadelphia, where the ground conditions were such as to allow the maximum amount of winter play.   This place has been located by George A. Crump, some fifteen miles from Camden, on the line of the Reading Railway, just below Clementon, NJ.   It is sandy, rolling, wooded country, with streams of water flowing through it.   Near enough to a town to solve the caddy question and easily accessible, both by railroad and automobile.   After satisfying himself that all the various conditions of the soil, the general layout of the ground for a golf course and its accessibility were favorable, and acting upon the advice of friends, he has purchased 184 acres for the purpose.

Furthermore, we know Crump's purchase of 184 acres took place during the Fall of 1912, in October.

We also know that while abroad in the Fall/Winter of 1910 on a golf trip with Joseph Baker, Crump wrote to his brother-in-law Ralph Kellam on a postcard, saying, Please buy for me a large map of Camden Co. of most recent date.

Now, perhaps while golfing the great courses abroad Crump was worried about how to drive across the New Jersey county he grew up in, but I would suggest this had much more to do with locating a golf course than concern about motorways.    

We also know that J.E. Ford reported in 1928 (the same year Shelley joined Pine Valley, and ten years after Crump's death), in an article where Howard Perrin was apparently interviewed and quoted, that Crump took Perrin and "journeyed one morning late in the summer of 1912 to Sumner Station", where they spent the day traipsing around the site with Crump enthusiastically proclaiming it's suitability for a course, and where Crump asked Perrin to build the club, telling Perrin that he'd build the course.

I would guess that Shelley made his mistake by confusing Father Carr's account (published January 1915) of a meeting at the Colonnade Hotel with the other events that happened in 1912.   The Colonnade had been owned by Crump up until he was able to complete the sale of it in 1910.

Carr begins;

Some few years ago, a dozen Philadelphia golf enthusiasts met in the Colonnade Hotel to discuss the project of establishing a golf course in the Jersey sands.   They felt that the few summer months, during which the clay soils of the Philadelphia region keep in condition for playing golf, are not enough to satisfy those golfers who are truly fond of the game.

They desired a course where there would be practically no closed season throughout the year.  In discussing the problem, they had the seaside in mind, chiefly the region about Atlantic City; but the great distance from Philadelphia, and the extreme difficulty of securing a suitable location, caused the project of a seashore course to be dropped.

The region outside of Camden was searched in all directions, until, finally, Mr. George A. Crump discovered a perfectly wonderful bit of golf land at Sumner Station, on the Atlantic City Division of the Reading Railroad, thirteen miles outside of Camden.

Finally, by 1982, Tillinghast was long since dead, so I'm not sure how Shelley could have possibly either verified or ruled out what Crump may have told Tillinghast personally back on a train ride in around 1910??

Tom, since you apparently have the Shelley book, what exactly about that photograph is stated that either dates it, or indicates its location, or otherwise proves Tillinghast's first-person, contemporaneous reporting untrue?

Surely from what's been provided here of Shelley's book, now that the clarifying and curiously missing paragraph has been provided, Shelley surely didn't seem so sure.  

[Tom MacWood]

"He makes it sound as though this idea for an Uber course and Crump's assignment to find suitable land began with a meeting in the Fall of 1912.   That is clearly and provably inaccurate."

When exactly did that meeting take place? That membership drive letter certainly doesn't shed any light on when it took place, nor does Carr's article.

And I'd like to know the source of the supposed post card because it sounds more like legend than reality. Camden County would be one of the last places one would look for a suitable winter golf course site, and we know the first two sites GAC considered were not in Camden County.

So what important documents was Shelley missing?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

It doesn't shed any light on the process when Howard Perrin tells prospective members that this had been discussed among the interested parties "for some years" in April of 1913?   Or when Carr tells us in an article published in January 1915 that the men met "some few years ago"?

Well, it might not shed light on the exact date, but I can tell you this much...it sure as hell wasn't in the fall of 1912 as Shelley suggested in his book! (as transcribed here by you and Patrick)    

As far as Camden County, it actually WAS the last place Crump looked, so you're right on that statement!  

The postcard account is told in "Pine Valley Golf Club - A Unique Haven for the Game" by James (Jim) A. Finegan, Copyright 2000.

In the section where he quotes and paraphrases from James Baker's 1950 remembrances, he writes;

A postcard dated December 1, 1910, that Crump sent from England to his brother-in-law Ralph Kellam, in Merchantville, suggests that the traveler had in the forefront of his mind on this European odyssey the task he would undertake when he got home, a task he was eager to tackle:  "Please buy for me a large map of Camden Co. of most recent date."

Finegan does not share the source of his information, but he certainly did have access to the club's archival material in writing the history.  I'm also certain that Finegan wouldn't have made up either the date, Crump's brother in law's name and address, or the content of the message on the postcard out of whole cloth.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

In presenting Warner Shelley's 1982 account of Pine Valley, you mysteriously neglected to add a VERY important and relevant paragraph that immediately followed the section you re-typed.

First, please advise the viewers/participants/lurkers that you're repeating an email that TEPaul sent to a number of us last night, that these are NOT your words, but his.  Now let me correct you and that idiot savant.

I didn't neglect anything.
The text following the quote I posted was general and speculative in nature.
Had Shelly attached significance to it, he would have re-ordered his text.

Why?   This from a guy who constantly represents others here as lying and misrepresenting facts?

I neither lied nor misrepresented.
Your problem is that you blindly followed TEPaul's criticism and failed to carefully read what Shelly wrote.
Let me refresh yours and the idiot savants memory.

Shelly states, UNEQUIVICALLY, "But, there is PROOF that he knew the grounds by tramping through them.
....... A photo of Crump resting amid the pines in 1909 is TESTAMENT OF THAT FACT"

Now, what Shelly says in the next sentence is a general SPECULATION.  Let me quote it for you.
" IT COULD BE THAT, in tramping through the grounds, he saw more of the trees and shrubs than the forest and perhaps only realized the rolling nature and its possibilities when he saw it at a greater distance from the train."

Let me repeat what he wrote:  "IT COULD BE THAT"  Repeat, "IT COULD BE THAT", as opposed to, "BUT THERE IS PROOF THAT HE KNEW THE GROUNDS BY TRAMPING THROUGH THEM...... A PHOTO OF CRUMP RESTING AMID THE PINES IN 1909 IS TESTIMONY TO THAT FACT

Shelly states the facts first, then offers a speculative opinion second, but, you and TEPaul want to attibute more weight to the speculation than to the facts.  Why doesn't that surprise me.

Shelley goes on to say;

"It could be that, in tramping through the grounds, he saw more of the trees and shrubs than the forest and perhaps only realized the rolling nature and its possibilities when he saw it at a greater distance from the train. In any case, he found a great location for the building of a golf course, no matter how."

"IT COULD BE THAT,.......A purely general speculative statement.

I also have the 1909 picture of Crump hunting in the wilderness and frankly, it could be from virtually anywhere.  

Oh, so now that Shelly, and the officially sanctioned history of Pine Valley is at odds with your romantic or mythical version, you attack Shelly's credibility.

I'm not sure how Shelley saw that as proof that Crump hunted in the lands of Pine Valley prior, but it's very possible he might have.  


Maybe the back of the photo says, "Me, sitting at the site of the future 7th green in 1909"

After all, he was an avid hunter and those lands were not far from his home, as Shelley points out.

However, as Shelley also points out, Crump may not have tied that land to the idea for a golf course until seeing it from a wider perspective from the train.

Shelley didn't point that out, that's disengenuous on your part.
Shelley speculated.  That's what, "It could be that" means.  It's pure speculation by Shelley, nothing more.

Oh, that's right, he walked the land for years, maybe decades, but only saw it's real valule when he rode a train with less than 4,000 footage on the site, on tracks that sit at least 50' below the bulk of the golf course.  

It is wholly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest for you to purposefully omit that paragraph and present otherwise.

I wish you knew what you were talking about.
The quotes are contained in the SAME paragraph, however, one is a factual statement, the other is speculation.
There is a difference, unfortunately, you're unable to perceive the distinction and neither was the idiot savant.

Also, I never presented that photo of the Shinnecock Hills section as being taken from NGLA or Sebonack and you know that as well.  

B.S. you jumped all over that photo implying that it was taken from the grounds at NGLA.
Why else would you revel in its publication ?

What I did say is that much of the area was wide open with long views, and it's likely that you could see the Atlantic Ocean from high points on the 450 acres of Sebonac Neck that CBM was considering, and possibly from mid-range points as well.  



Tell us, from what mid-range points on the Sebonack property can you see both the Bay and the Atlantic
Go ahead, pinpoint those locations for us.

And, you told us that it wasn't wide open.
You told us it had thick undergrowth covering it, just like PV.
Don't you remember that ?

You can't keep switching your position to conveniently distort and deflect the truth.

The location, whereby the comment about viewing both bodies of water came from, was next to the Shinnecock Canal, NOT three (3) miles east of that location.  You just can't admit you were wrong...... again.

By the way, the ridge that Shinnecock sits on blocks ones view south when playing NGLA.

The photo clearly shows that the area was much more barren and open than at present, or that we understand simply through our modern "knowledge".

HINT:  It's not the same area.  The area of the picture is at least three (3) miles WEST of NGLA.
Please, try to maintain some degree of intellectual honesty.