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Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #425 on: August 25, 2011, 10:05:08 AM »
Tom,

There could be a million reasons, most of them likely financial.

You previously pointed out one of them...his sale of the Colonnade Hotel, which was prolonged over a period of three years, from 1907 until near the end of 1910.    We know it was sold for about $1,000,000.

We now know that Crump was trying to sell the hotel from sometime in 1907, likely after the death of his wife.  

We also know that much of his 1910 was dedicated to business, which likely was the final sale of the hotel, as well as likely other matters.

We also know that right after the hotel was sold in later 1910, that he went abroad to play the great courses of Europe for three months.

We also know that while there he wrote his brother-in-law requesting a recent map of Camden County.  We don't know if it was a topo map or not.

As far as looking at other prospective sites in Absecon and Browns Mills, we don't know when that was.   Baker doesn't tell us, but it is not inconceivable that it was prior to 1910, or in that same year.   We know the group was looking at alternatives where they could get to sandy based soils to build their own private club that could be open most of the year....Atlantic City was a public course, but we know they looked at potential sites near the shore since that originally seemed a logic choice.   Baker tells us that Crump dumped the Absecon site because of mosquitoes, so it's likely he viewed it in summer, but we don't know what year.    

We don't know when he looked at Browns Mills either, but it's about 26 miles due east of Crump's home in Merchantville (Absecon was southeast) going towards the shore towards Tom's River, NJ, about 30 miles from the ocean.

Tillinghast in his very first article in January 1913 seeks to explain why they chose the land of Pine Valley over land closer to the shore.   Simply, after looking at potential sites, this one was clearly the best, although being further inland, it does not shed snow as quickly as closer to the shore.

We also know about the sale of the hotel, but if Crump was doing a midlife change of this magnitude, it's likely he had other matters, financial and otherwise, to get in order before pursuing a large land purchase and building his own golf course..

What do we know about the sale of the land?   Was it for sale when Crump first looked?   If so, at what price?   What do we know about the seller?   Supposedly it was Sumner Ireland, but the sale was actually from the Lumberton Sand Company.  

Were they actively mining it at the time?   Using it for other purposes?   We don't know much about the sale, or what factors could have caused that delay, do we?

We know that Tillinghast told us that Crump looked at the land for some time, motoring out there by himself at first several times, then bringing some close friends to get their take...perhaps he hunted it at that time as well...but we know he took a long time studying it before the actual purchase.

To suggest that all of this just started in 1912 and was completed that year seems very much at odds with what we know...and what we don't know.



Here again is the first part of that article...

« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 11:27:27 AM by MCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #426 on: August 25, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »
Patrick,

Not an obsession, eh?  I think not, but that's okay, we're all a little looney tunes here.

BTW, in looking back on a first page post that has Crump de-training, it shows daylight and the photo is published in Dec 1909, for whatever that is worth.  Maybe someone can measure the shadows and calculate exactly what time of day it was so we can determine what train he was on.

The photo would appear to be in the AC Station in the morning, probably about 10:30.


BTW II, since we have photographic evidence that Crump was on a train in Dec 1909, and that date fits well within Tillie's comments of "nearly three years ago" it occurs to me, that even if Crump played no golf in 1910, perhaps that was the very train trip that he saw PV on!  TMac asks why someone would remember one trip out of many.  Its also fair to ask why they would photograph one de-training out of many.

They sure look bundled up.  Hearty guys if they were playing golf that day.
They were probably deboarding the Express train, the one that passed PV at about 60-75 mph.

So, I'll ask you the same question I asked Mike.

Is it your contention that Crump FIRST spotted the land that would become PV from the passing train, or do you believe that he was previously familiar with the land ?

Simple question, which is it ?


Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #427 on: August 25, 2011, 10:26:36 AM »
Patrick,

According to his very close friend and traveling companion and Crump's hand-picked chronicler of contemporaneous events, AW Tillinghast, Crump first considered the land for golf from the train.   He very well may have hunted it previously, or after, but from this account it seems that Tillinghast wholly believed the thought of using the land for golf first occurred to Crump from the train window.

As Shelly told us, it may have been that only from the longer view did Crump notice the forest from the trees.

Why are you trying to avoid moving the discussion to the topographical history of PV?   Did Tom Paul share with you the notation written on Crump's original stick routing?  


« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 11:04:47 AM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #428 on: August 25, 2011, 11:48:57 AM »
Pat,

All I can surmise is that he told Tilly that he saw it from a train window, and Tillie was the guy who he authorized to report it to the world, in the column Mike shows above.  He also apparently told other versions of the story to others and all have different memories.   If there is a myth one way or the other, George Crump started it, not Tillie, or Perrin, et al.

But, it might not be black and white.  At this point, I agree with Shelly - No doubt he was familiar with the area in general, but also saw something specific from the train window that caught his eye specifically for golf.  He didn't know for sure, as he wrote, and we don't know for sure.  Also, the important thing is he found it.
 
I see and prefer TMac's points and analysis of the contemporary documents, but don't think your analysis of train speed and what not is really good history or process - its really throwing as much poo against the wall to see what sticks. 

I propose we move on to analyzing the construction sequence of PV where TMac and others seem to have something of real value to offer.  You and I, well, we're just gasbagging it.  cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #429 on: August 25, 2011, 09:10:06 PM »
Tom,

There could be a million reasons, most of them likely financial.

You previously pointed out one of them...his sale of the Colonnade Hotel, which was prolonged over a period of three years, from 1907 until near the end of 1910.    We know it was sold for about $1,000,000.

We now know that Crump was trying to sell the hotel from sometime in 1907, likely after the death of his wife.  

We also know that much of his 1910 was dedicated to business, which likely was the final sale of the hotel, as well as likely other matters.

We also know that right after the hotel was sold in later 1910, that he went abroad to play the great courses of Europe for three months.

We also know that while there he wrote his brother-in-law requesting a recent map of Camden County.  We don't know if it was a topo map or not.

As far as looking at other prospective sites in Absecon and Browns Mills, we don't know when that was.   Baker doesn't tell us, but it is not inconceivable that it was prior to 1910, or in that same year.   We know the group was looking at alternatives where they could get to sandy based soils to build their own private club that could be open most of the year....Atlantic City was a public course, but we know they looked at potential sites near the shore since that originally seemed a logic choice.   Baker tells us that Crump dumped the Absecon site because of mosquitoes, so it's likely he viewed it in summer, but we don't know what year.    

We don't know when he looked at Browns Mills either, but it's about 26 miles due east of Crump's home in Merchantville (Absecon was southeast) going towards the shore towards Tom's River, NJ, about 30 miles from the ocean.

Tillinghast in his very first article in January 1913 seeks to explain why they chose the land of Pine Valley over land closer to the shore.   Simply, after looking at potential sites, this one was clearly the best, although being further inland, it does not shed snow as quickly as closer to the shore.

We also know about the sale of the hotel, but if Crump was doing a midlife change of this magnitude, it's likely he had other matters, financial and otherwise, to get in order before pursuing a large land purchase and building his own golf course..

What do we know about the sale of the land?   Was it for sale when Crump first looked?   If so, at what price?   What do we know about the seller?   Supposedly it was Sumner Ireland, but the sale was actually from the Lumberton Sand Company.  

Were they actively mining it at the time?   Using it for other purposes?   We don't know much about the sale, or what factors could have caused that delay, do we?

We know that Tillinghast told us that Crump looked at the land for some time, motoring out there by himself at first several times, then bringing some close friends to get their take...perhaps he hunted it at that time as well...but we know he took a long time studying it before the actual purchase.

To suggest that all of this just started in 1912 and was completed that year seems very much at odds with what we know...and what we don't know.



A million reasons? I'll settle for one reasonable reason.

So you reject the idea that the group organized in 1912, and Crump was given the task of finding the site? You believe they formed prior to 1910, and that is when Crump looked at Absecon and Browns Mills.

If you were to write the history of PV please give us your brief account of when the group was formed and when the site found...give us your account.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 09:16:09 PM by Tom MacWood »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #430 on: August 25, 2011, 09:11:32 PM »
If Crump found the site early in 1910 why did it take him until September 1912 (when he sent the letter to his friends) to rediscover it? Don't you find it odd he considered Absecon and Browns Mills before it?

What would be even more odd is if he had known the land very well for years and still considered other sites, don't you think?

If the initial plan was to have a year round course at the Jersey shore, I'm not sure why you would stop in Clementon...any thoughts Tom?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #431 on: August 25, 2011, 09:13:03 PM »
I'll answer your questions after you answer the last question I asked you a day or two ago.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 09:39:24 PM by Tom MacWood »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #432 on: August 25, 2011, 09:21:04 PM »
PS - Irene may end up solving Pine Valley's "tree problem" this weekend.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #433 on: August 25, 2011, 09:22:12 PM »
PS - Irene may end up solving Pine Valley's "tree problem" this weekend.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Was she wearing a fanny pack?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #434 on: August 25, 2011, 09:26:29 PM »
"Nearly three years ago George A. Crump, the well-known player, was on one of the Reading Railway trains bound for the seaside links. Glancing out of the window, he saw a tract of land which rivetted his attention instantly, for, unlike the usual flat Jersey landscape, this mediately it occurred to him that the land would be ideal for a golf course. It is situated close by the railroad tracks, about 15 miles from Camden near Clemonton."  ~~ 1/12/1913 Phila Inq


1 - We know he went on a three month golf trip in 1910. We know he didn't play any of the local club events that year. Otherwise, you have no idea how much golf he played, none! You have absolutely no basis to make the claim #1.


Jim
Which is it? Was Tilly off the mark or are you arguing the articles that claimed Crump was away from the game in 1910 were wrong?




Tom,

It's clear the articles were wrong because even you will not deny that he played golf in Europe at the end of 1910.

And Tilly could well have been wrong in recalling the time frame as well, but for the train story to be a myth would require Tillinghast to be a liar and I'm not ready to say that...

And I don't need an answer to my question because I know it already.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #435 on: August 25, 2011, 09:35:09 PM »
"Nearly three years ago George A. Crump, the well-known player, was on one of the Reading Railway trains bound for the seaside links. Glancing out of the window, he saw a tract of land which rivetted his attention instantly, for, unlike the usual flat Jersey landscape, this mediately it occurred to him that the land would be ideal for a golf course. It is situated close by the railroad tracks, about 15 miles from Camden near Clemonton."  ~~ 1/12/1913 Phila Inq


1 - We know he went on a three month golf trip in 1910. We know he didn't play any of the local club events that year. Otherwise, you have no idea how much golf he played, none! You have absolutely no basis to make the claim #1.


Jim
Which is it? Was Tilly off the mark or are you arguing the articles that claimed Crump was away from the game in 1910 were wrong?




Tom,

It's clear the articles were wrong because even you will not deny that he played golf in Europe at the end of 1910.

And Tilly could well have been wrong in recalling the time frame as well, but for the train story to be a myth would require Tillinghast to be a liar and I'm not ready to say that...

And I don't need an answer to my question because I know it already.

Why are they wrong? The 1911 article acknowledged he went on golfing trip in Europe, and the 1910 article obviously did not.

Tilly and the others claimed Crump died of a tooth ache. Were they liars?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #436 on: August 25, 2011, 09:41:51 PM »
Tom,

Any article that said Crump played zero golf in 1910 is wrong...but I guess there aren't any that actually said that are there? Can you provide a single one? So I guess that articles aren't wrong afterall.

If Tilly knew Crump died of suicide when he wrote that he died of a toothache then he lied...and in my opinion some lies are justified. What business is it of yours what Crump died of?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 09:46:52 PM by Jim Sullivan »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #437 on: August 25, 2011, 09:42:48 PM »

What would be even more odd is if he had known the land very well for years and still considered other sites, don't you think?

If the initial plan was to have a year round course at the Jersey shore, I'm not sure why you would stop in Clementon...any thoughts Tom?

I wondered about that myself, how could he have known the site as a youth and then discovered it late? But then I thought about the places my father and mother took me as a boy, and having no idea where I was or how we got there.

I do think the initial plan was to build a course near the Jersey shore.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #438 on: August 25, 2011, 09:48:02 PM »
Tom,

Any article that said Crump played zero golf in 1910 is wrong...but I guess there aren't any that actually said that are there? Can you provide a single one? So I guess that articles aren't wrong afterall.

Doesn't it depend on when the articles were written and what they said? Did you happen to read the articles before weighing in on them?

If Tilly knew Crump dies of cuicide when he wrote that he died of a toothache then he lied...and in my opinion some lies are justified. What business is it of yours what Crump died of?

He lied?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #439 on: August 25, 2011, 09:52:14 PM »
Tom,

Viewing the land Pine Valley sits on from the tracks as opposed to in the midst of the trees would reveal a wholly different perspective, I hope you can imagine that. Have you been there?



Regarding the articles discussing Crump's golf in 1910, I have only seen the newspaper clip that says he was missed at a couple tournaments and the one that says he was away from the game for business. Do you think he didn't go to Eurpoe at the end of the year? Or do you think he just left his clubs at home?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #440 on: August 25, 2011, 10:06:07 PM »
Tom,

Viewing the land Pine Valley sits on from the tracks as opposed to in the midst of the trees would reveal a wholly different perspective, I hope you can imagine that. Have you been there?

No, but I have read the articles in question, and have seen a copy of his death certificate. And I'm still wondering why you think the articles are wrong, and how you rationalize the tooth ache.

Regarding the articles discussing Crump's golf in 1910, I have only seen the newspaper clip that says he was missed at a couple tournaments and the one that says he was away from the game for business. Do you think he didn't go to Eurpoe at the end of the year? Or do you think he just left his clubs at home?

What did the articles say?

He missed a couple of tournaments? I assume you are not familiar with GAP tournament structure, or the Lesley Cup, or the winter tournament structure? 

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #441 on: August 25, 2011, 10:09:42 PM »
 >:( :( >:( :( >:(

If my good friend committed suicide, I would not be interested in publicizing same!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #442 on: August 25, 2011, 10:13:18 PM »
Agreed Archie, different strokes though...


Tom,

Do you believe George Crump traveled to Europe in 1910 and played golf?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #443 on: August 25, 2011, 10:21:57 PM »
Yes, why? Have you read the articles?

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #444 on: August 25, 2011, 10:26:58 PM »
Do we know that even Crump's closest friends knew the circumstances of his death?

I certainly don't see that in their reactions, or in the subsequent articles that they wrote...his body was delivered by someone at the club to his mother's home in Merchantville, and all the press reports said he died there at the home of an abscess from tooth and gum infections reaching his brain.

How do we know Tillinghast lied about that, even just to save the privacy and reputation of his dear friend?   What proof is there?

Or, perhaps those who possibly knew the truth should have gone to William Randolph Hearst, and should have written "Tell -all" books about what they knew and cashed in on their thirty pieces of silver out of their relationship with their friend George Crump?

About 15 years ago I was out at Rustic Canyon and was told by Tommy Naccarato and Geoff Shackleford that they knew George Crump had killed himself with a gun.   Both had that information way back, yet chose to respect his memory and achievements.

Were they lying?


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #445 on: August 25, 2011, 10:28:15 PM »
>:( :( >:( :( >:(

If my good friend committed suicide, I would not be interested in publicizing same!

I see your point, but what is your feeling about concocting a bogus story?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #446 on: August 25, 2011, 10:36:30 PM »
Do we know that even Crump's closest friends knew the circumstances of his death?

I certainly don't see that in their reactions, or in the subsequent articles that they wrote...his body was delivered by someone at the club to his mother's home in Merchantville, and all the press reports said he died there at the home of an abscess from tooth and gum infections reaching his brain.

How do we know Tillinghast lied about that, even just to save the privacy and reputation of his dear friend?   What proof is there?

Or, perhaps those who possibly knew the truth should have gone to William Randolph Hearst, and should have written "Tell -all" books about what they knew and cashed in on their thirty pieces of silver out of their relationship with their friend George Crump?

About 15 years ago I was out at Rustic Canyon and was told by Tommy Naccarato and Geoff Shackleford that they knew George Crump had killed himself with a gun.   Both had that information way back, yet chose to respect his memory and achievements.

Were they lying?



Since I've known for certain how he died, based upon their reactions, I've always gotten the impression they knew. Under the circumstances I would think that would be difficult to keep the info from your close friends. He shot himself. If someone told you your friend died of a tooth ache what would your reaction be? A tooth ache?

Were Tommy and Geoff lying? How could they be lying if they said nothing?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 10:40:32 PM by Tom MacWood »

henrye

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #447 on: August 25, 2011, 10:55:11 PM »
I pick no sides in this discussion, but glanced at it the other day and would only like to add one tidbit.  I have never been to Pine Valley, but   if the story is true that the property offered good hunting, it likely wasn't too densely covered in forest.  I have done my share of shooting & hunting and from my experience trying to hit a target in a dense forest is about as easy as hitting a golf ball in a dense forest.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 04:13:10 PM by HenryE »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #448 on: August 25, 2011, 10:56:00 PM »
TMac,

Technically, I guess they were lying, but there is friendly press and unfriendly press, and always have been.  Babe Ruth could let the press knew he drank beer and what not, and no one let on, more to protect their own stories.  And, in general, if you had a suicide, mentally ill, pregnant, or criminal relative, (or worse - GASP! - a golf architecture enthusiast!) you did what you could to hide it back in those days, as opposed to now.

So, while it might or not be right, I tend to agree that the suicide story being hidden was just a sign of the times.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Pine Valley and Topos
« Reply #449 on: August 25, 2011, 11:17:28 PM »
Tom,

More information about the link between gum disease and coronary problems can be found at this link.

http://www.dentalwellness4u.com/dentaldisease/attack.html

Crump's 90-something old caddy, when interviewed, indicated that Crump spent his final days walking around with a towel in his mouth to absorb the pain of infection.   Other reports at the time of his death mentioned he had long suffered from pain associated with poor dental health, with several extractions having been done in recent years.

While he may have ended his life based on agronomic issues, it's equally likely he decided to end things based on being in continual pain, and it's also likely that most of his friends knew of his struggles in this regard....which the family may have used as a way to avoid the embarrassment of the public knowing hat he had taken his own life.