Pine Valley and Topos

[JESII]

I saw that Mike, interesting snippet.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

My understanding is that the answers you're looking for in your first post can be gained by looking at a copy of the original Topo maps that are at the club.

Evidently, the drawings were done right atop the original pre-construction topo lines, and still reflect the site pre-construction.

If you can get a modern topo done to a five foot or less scale to compare against, you should be able to tell precisely where earth-moving took place.

I've already answered your other question from your first post.   Tillinghast and others like Perrin and Carr tell us that the initial site visits prior to Crump's purchase were to determine general suitability of the land and contours and soils for golf, as well as trying to identify key features that would be interesting to build golf holes around.

Tillinghast told us in January 1913 that additional topo surveys would prove to be useful and it's clear he used them to draw on.  

On the other hand, ask Tom about whether he used it in routing, or just to keep tabs about where he was while walking the land...you may be surprised.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

We've been through this. What you would see today is more or less totally unrelated to what you may have seen 100 years ago.

You have come up with no evidence of 40 foot tall trees anywhere on the property and I don't believe there were any.

Jim, photos of # 5 from the late teens and early twenties show pines about 80' tall.
How can you deny their existance ?

Every picture I've seen show scrawny little pines that wouldn't obstruct a thing from the seat of the train.

Then you've been looking at the wrong pictures, pictures of the cleared land where they left small trees.
Just look at the pictures, circa 1922-25 in Geoff Shackelford's book, "The Golden Age of Golf Design"
The trees are 40, 50 and 60 feet tall.
Even the 1917 photo taken from behind the 18th tee shows 60 foot tall pines in the cleared areas.
The same photo, north of the tracks shows trees in a dense forest 40,50 and 60 feet tall.
Do you think that no trees grew south of the tracks ?
The beautiful lake that some said he saw wasn't even there prior to 1915, it was a swamp/bog, hardly the land ideal for golf.
And, most of the site sits above the railroad grade, so even if there were no trees, what could he see ?

Carr stated that the area was a dense forest with jungle like undergrowth.
How can you dismiss that account ?

You and your Philly Phanatics keep looking at post-clearing and post construction photos, focusing on the cleared areas rather than the NON-cleared areas.  Focus on the non-cleared areas.  The contemporaneous photos show it to be tall, dense forest.

One of the most telling photos is circa 1922 of the 10th hole.
You know how sharply the land drops off behind the and to the north of # 10/# 17 green, yet tall pines are visible in the distance.
Just look through Brown's, Shelly's, Finegan's and Shackelford's books and it becomes self evident.

When's the last time the Philadelphia water supply was tested ?

Shelly's book shows post construction photos with trees 40, 50 and 60 feet tall.
They cleared 22,000 trees.

By the way, a page or so ago you were hypothesizing that the area down by the lake was bought later...where did you come up with that?

The original purchase was 184 acres.
TEPaul indicated that shortly thereafter they bought about 40 acres.
In July 1917 they bought 325 acres.

Shelly indicated that the subsequent purchase was because GAC "decided more land was needed to include lakes, roads, club buildings and a few bungalows.  Over a period of years, and piece by piece, the original property was added to by acquisition so that now Pine Valley owns a tract of 623 acres - 194.5 acres of GOLF COURSE, INCLUDING BUNKERS, LAKES, ROADS AND BUILDINGS;"

Since there are NO other lakes on the property, other than those at the northern section of the property, he must have been referencing those lakes.

Hope that helps

I can understand Cirba clinging to the train myth, but you ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Per your request, I am happy to remove the offending parts of my earlier post as inappropriate on this site.   For the record, TePaul still has nothing to do with my posts.  Like you, I delete most of his emails after a cursory glance.  Its not worth my time to retrieve them from my garbage pail to prove to you that I don't post for him.

TMac,

For the record, I was referring to the Colt 1913 plan, and not the 1914 newspaper plan.  Don't know how you would know, but you are wrong and thanks for giving us yet another example of how you have no qualms in misrepresenting something to insult someone or make a false point.  BTW, still waiting for your long list of Philly myths.  I've asked a few times, and if you don't answer soon, I presume logical minds will conclude its another one of your agenda driven false statements.

Pat,

I love RR history  more than most, but I really think you are on a better track (pun intended) to focus on your topo questions.  I have a few, too, including how much of the area was actually mined before Crump bought it.  The survey topo in the area of holes 1-4 seems flat, whereas the 1908 state topo shows a pretty big and steep rise right in front of 2 Tee.  Was that dug out?

If it helps you, I will state that I think Tillie's train story is only partial truth, or his truth.  Ditto for the other guys.  I just don't think it all has to be mutually exclusive, but rather a difference in understanding among reasonable people (them, obviously not us!)

Whenever I tune into these psuedo history threads, I am reminded of this quote from the great Satchel Paige: "Don't participate on golf club atlas, it really angries up the blood."

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer,  Rather than setting the record straight you are now exacerbating the problem by suggesting your libelous statements have some sort of source other than the twisted imaginations of you and your creepy friend.

Quit making shit up about me, Jeff.  Quit posting the petty fantasies of your sick friend as if they were reported elsewhere as truth.  And quit making excuses for your abhorrent behavior.   

You've turned out to be a real creep, Jeff.  I want nothing more to do with you. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Below is a timetable for the Atlantic City Railroad from "The Official Guide of the Railways and Steam Navigation Lines of the United States, Porto Rico, Canada, Mexico and Cuba" published in January 1908.

It clearly shows a stop for Sumner station along that line.  

I know my eyes are bad, but, LOOK more carefully.

You'll see:

1    NO EXPRESS TRAINS STOP THERE.

2    ONLY TWO (2) TRAINS THAT GO FROM PHILADELPHIA ALL THE WAY TO ATLANTIC CITY STOP THERE
      THOSE TRAINS TAKE 2.5+ HOURS TO MAKE THAT TRIP.  
       DO YOU REALLY THINK CRUMP WOULD TAKE ANY OF THOSE TRAINS IN HIS HASTE TO GET
       TO ATLANTIC CITY TO PLAY GOLF ?

3     OF THE TWO TRAINS FROM PHILLY, ONE DEPARTS AT 7:30 AM, THE OTHER AT 5:00 PM
      SINCE MIKE TOLD US IT WAS THE WINTER, WITH THE LEAVES OFF THE TREES, IT WOULD BE DARK WHEN THE TRAIN
      PASSED THE SUMNER STATION, AND AS SUCH, NOTHING WOULD BE VISIBLE

4    BOTH TRAINS FROM AC DEPART LATE IN THE AFTERNOON AND EVENING, SO IT WOULD BE DARK WHEN THE TRAIN
     PASSED SUMNER ON THE WAY TO PHILLY

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I think you're making things up.

NO ONE, not Crump, Simon Carr, Baker. Brown, Shelly, Finegan or anyone else stated that any of the property comprising the 184 acres was EVER mined.

Perhaps you're misreading the topo/s.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Perhaps, but I am pretty good at reading them, and do see some differences in that area.  However, I have not heard anyone say any part of the land is mined either.  But, they bought it from a mining company, so it is possible, no?

But I am asking questions. I know many out there know more about PV and its development than I.  I will sit back and listen.

As to the fruitless train debate, I would agree that most days, the golf crowd would take the express.  Don't know how light situation is, but its not mutually exclusive that they took every train in winter.  As Tmac pointed out (I think) in his 1933 telling of the story, he stared intently on many trips.  So, you have to presume all golf trips were in the winter, and also that the schedule didn't change from 1908 to 1910, and also that they NEVER missed the early train and had to take a slower train.  Hey, they could go mid afternoon, stay in a hotel and play first thing the next morning.  Or, were they known to always be day trips?

Again, its not worth the time we expend on it. 

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Do you want to talk reality and find answers to your questions or do you want to keep going down the wrong set of tracks with your alternative agenda of anti-Philly rhetoric?

Your most recent response to SPBD shows how ridiculous you've become here.

Where is it dark at 7:30 am in the winter...the Arctics?  

Are you claiming that Crump never had occasion to take the train into South Jersey below Pine Valley for any reason in his life but to play golf in Atlantic City, especially as a native of Merchantville?

Are you claiming that Crump never would have stopped at the Sumner station for any purpose?...that the stops and trains were the same in 1910 as they were in 1908?   That Crump was wholly unfamiliar with that spot along the tracks?   Wasn't this his supposed "backyard"??

First the train was going too fast...then, there was no station...then, there were too many trees...then, the station exists but it was for freight only...then, the times didn't work....

You're running out of ammunition and I'd really prefer we discuss something productive as nobody but MacWood perhaps, and probably Moriarty agrees with you, which isn't much in the larger order of things.

Why can't you simply say...yes, Mike...David and I, despite our arrogance and argumentative nature are WRONG...yet AGAIN.  

This would be much simpler if you'd simply own up to your mistakes and constant omissions and misinterpretations, all predicated on your pre-judging of evidence due to your ridiculous agendas.

[JESII]

Pat,

I'm looking at Geoff Shackelford's "The Golden Age of Golf Design" right now...80 feet huh?...I wonder what you're calling 6 inches...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I'm reminded of the Irish/Italian (insert any other nationality here) wife whose husband told her he was buying her a 10,000 square foot home and thus promptly ordered 2,500 square feet of carpeting. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just looked at the tables for Feb 1 in NJ and its a 7:06 sunrise and 5:14 Sunset.  That is within a week of winter solstice, no?  Don't know about daylight savings time, etc. back in the day, so anything is possible, but if they left Camden at 7:30, by the time they got to Sumner, it would be light.

Again, just shows what Patrick will throw out there for a desparate argument.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Do you want to talk reality and find answers to your questions or do you want to keep going down the wrong set of tracks with your alternative agenda of anti-Philly rhetoric?

Your most recent response to SPBD shows how ridiculous you've become here.

My response isn't ridiculous, it's your reading comprehension skills that are ridiculous.

Where is it dark at 7:30 am in the winter...the Arctics?   '

Go back and reread # 3.
One train left at 7:30 am, the other at 5:00, it's dark in the winter by 5:46, when the train would pull into Sumner.

Are you claiming that Crump never had occasion to take the train into South Jersey below Pine Valley for any reason in his life but to play golf in Atlantic City, especially as a native of Merchantville?

No, that's your absurd, extreme example.
Crump went to play golf in Atlantic City in the WINTER.
Hint, it gets dark early in the winter, so he couldn't see a thing on the 5:00 pm train from Philly, same for the two trains departing AC in the evening.
That leaves ONE train, departing at 7:30 am and stopping at almost EVERY stop, taking 2 hours and 40 minutes IF it was on time., getting him into AC at 10:10.  He could take the Express train, departing an hour and a half later, at 9:00, getting into AC only 15 minutes after the milk stop train.
and, chances are, the Express train was more on time than the milk run train.  

Are you claiming that Crump never would have stopped at the Sumner station for any purpose?...

Not when he was going to play golf in AC.

that the stops and trains were the same in 1910 as they were in 1908?


While departure and arrival times might vary slightly, I doubt the structure of the schedule varied much.  

That Crump was wholly unfamiliar with that spot along the tracks?  

If the Express trains didn't stop there and were traveling at 60-75 mph, I don't think he was famiilar with that spot.
There would be no reason for him to take the train that stopped at every stop when getting to AC in the least amount of time was important to him.

Wasn't this his supposed "backyard"??
The area was in his backyard.  As to being famiiar with railroad tracks, the question is absurd.

First the train was going too fast...

60-75 mph remains a high rate of speed, to fast for any substantive evaluation.

then, there was no station...

The railroad chart indicates that there was no station, just a platform and a shelter.
No Express trains stopped there and ONLY TWO trains stopped there, trains that stopped at every stop, taking over 2 hours and 40 minutes to make the trip from Philly to AC.  Hardly the train that a successful, wealthy businessman like Crump would ride

then, there were too many trees...

The early photos show the dense trees, you just don't want to see them.

then, the station exists but it was for freight only...

then, the times didn't work....

The times don't work, just look at them.
Depart Philly at 5:00 in the winter, get to Sumner at 5:46 IF the trains on time.
It's dark at that time, or didn't you notice.

You're running out of ammunition and I'd really prefer we discuss something productive as nobody but MacWood perhaps, and probably Moriarty agrees with you, which isn't much in the larger order of things.

Actually Mike, I'm adding ammunition, including Shelly's direct debunking of your myth, but, you choose not to believe Shelly because he destroys your myth.

Why can't you simply say...yes, Mike...David and I, despite our arrogance and argumentative nature are WRONG...yet AGAIN.  
Because we're not wrong, you are.   Shelly told you you were wrong but you just can't come to grips with it.

This would be much simpler if you'd simply own up to your mistakes and constant omissions and misinterpretations, all predicated on your pre-judging of evidence due to your ridiculous agendas.

Pre-judging evidence ?  Like Shelly's direct refutation of the train story, which you refuse to accept.

You're the one with the agenda.
Protect the myth surrounding the club and endear yourself to members, ergo, get invitations to play

I have NO agenda.

If I do, would you cite, with specificity, what exactly it is ?

Thanks

[Tom MacWood]

Give me break. I have logically explained why the Tilly 1910 train story makes little sense.

1. Crump was not playing golf in 1910. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
2. Tilly was playing little or no golf in 1910 because of his involvement at Shawnee. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
3. Crump considered two other sites prior to settling on the current site in 1912. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
4. Every other contemporaneous source other than Tilly said Crump found the site hunting. You have presented nothing to dispute that.
5. You and no other person on this thread can explain why Crump looking out the train on this train trip was any different then GAC looking out the train window on the other fifty passes by the site.

You have presented nothing, and please did not read this as an invitation for you to post another bunch of unrelated articles for the tenth time.

Tom,

If you call that logic, then I see why we almost never agree.  

You are the only person on this thread who interpreted Tillinghast writing in November of 1910 that Crump, Tilly (and many others including Hugh Wilson) had been sadly absent from local tournaments of late as having played no golf at all during the winter of 1909/1910, or never having traveled on a train along the Clementon stop during the entire year.   Jim Sullivan has already provided proof that Tillinghast played in the US Open that year. You have presented nothing that disputes Crump was not playing golf in 1910. There is a very simple resolution....show evidence of him playing golf. I wrote Tilly was playing little or no golf. I think I have found evidence of Tilly playing in three events that year. By the way it was also reported in January 1911 that Crump had been away from the game the previous year, and the fact there is no evidence of him playing would seem to confirm that.

Crump did consider two other sites, at least according to Baker's 1950 account...at first these guys thought they needed another course near Atlantic City.   Nobody has ever dated those events and they easily could have been in 1910, or even prior. There is no guessing necessary. We have the Crump's September 1912 letter to his friends documenting the order of things. Logic tells us the other sites must have been considered some time before that...probably in 1912 since most accounts say the group was formed in 1912. Tilly's 1910 train story makes little sense in light of this evidence. By the way Carr also said they first considered a site on the coast.

Please show me even one contemporaneous account that states that Crump found the site for golf while hunting.   Any will do...quote and date and source included please. So you are pleading ignorance. You know darn well Tilly is the only person who claimed he found the site by train. The quotes from Alan Wilson, Jerome Travers, Ellsworth Giles, Thomas Uzell, Joe E. Ford, and Shelley are on this thread, please go back and look them up. Don't be an idiot.

As far as you last question, perhaps because he never thought of building his own golf course prior to 1910 and the sale of his hotel.  It's only when looking that one usually sees. Huh? That is your explanation for why that particular glance out the window stood out from the other fifty. Nice try.

You have presented nothing.

Jim
Nice try, but its difficult to overcome No. 1.

No golf in 1910 = no golf excursion to AC in 1910 = bogus train story

I posted this yesterday or the day before, and you must have missed it.

I will tell you the same thing I've told Mike. If you have your heart set on the train story who I am I to tell you not to continue to hold on to it. It the greater scheme its not that important.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

For the record, I was referring to the Colt 1913 plan, and not the 1914 newspaper plan.  Don't know how you would know, but you are wrong and thanks for giving us yet another example of how you have no qualms in misrepresenting something to insult someone or make a false point.  BTW, still waiting for your long list of Philly myths.  I've asked a few times, and if you don't answer soon, I presume logical minds will conclude its another one of your agenda driven false statements.

For the record I know you referred to the 1913 plan, and that is not the blue plan on the so called red and blue plan. It is the Colt plan that appeared in the Inquirer. Are you aware they are different? You may want to check with your handlers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just looked at the tables for Feb 1 in NJ and its a 7:06 sunrise and 5:14 Sunset.  

Which means that at 5:46 pm, when the train pulled into Sumner that it was pitch black.
Don't you get it.

That is within a week of winter solstice, no?  

NO, it's not.
The winter solstice is on December 21/22, not a week from Feb 1st.
Maybe this confirms you inability to reason, you don't know what time of day or year it is.
You don't know elevation differentials from # 14 tee to # 15 tee.
In short, your desire to just argue to the contrary has blinded your ability to reason

Don't know about daylight savings time, etc. back in the day, so anything is possible, but if they left Camden at 7:30, by the time they got to Sumner, it would be light.

Jeff, we know that, I cited that earlier, didn't you read # 3.
But, why would Crump take a train that stops at every stop, taking 2 hours and 40 minutes, arriving in AC at 10:10 if he could take a 9:00 express train arriving in AC at 10:25 ?  Why ride a train for 2 hours and 40 minutes when you could ride a train for 1 hour 25 minutes and only arrive 15 minutes after the earlier train, IF the earlier train was on time ?  Remember, this was Crump, a wealthy businessman, who rode with other weatlhy businessmen to AC to play golf in the winter.

On the return, would you point out what non-express train departing in the afternoon stopped at Sumner.
My eyes are bad and I'm having trouble reading that chart.

By my calculation, that leaves one train and one train only that stopped at Sumner during daylight hours, the 7:30 am train from Philly, the one competing with the 9:00 Express.  And NO afternoon trains from AC.

Again, just shows what Patrick will throw out there for a desparate argument.  

Desperate argument ?
You must have been a lousy math student.
The argument is as sound as geometric/mathematical logic will allow.

You and Mike are the obtuse ones in this exercise.
Please, do yourself a favor and study the tables such that you have a modicum of knowlege with respect to this subject.

I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if irrefutable facts are presented to you, you're incapable of getting past your personality biases and understanding facts and prudent reasoning, and that's causing this thread to deteriorate.

Bluntly put, you guys are dolts when it comes to math and logic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I'm looking at Geoff Shackelford's "The Golden Age of Golf Design" right now...80 feet huh?...I wonder what you're calling 6 inches...

Then take a look at page 56 and tell me what you estimate the height of the trees on the left and right side of that picture to be.
Then go to page 62 and tell me what height you estimate the trees behind the 15th tee to be.
The trees on the left of page 54 are at least 40 feet and theyre cropped off well before their tops

[Tom MacWood]

Jim,

I'm reminded of the Irish/Italian (insert any other nationality here) wife whose husband told her he was buying her a 10,000 square foot home and thus promptly ordered 2,500 square feet of carpeting.  

Mike
Thank God you are still on this thread. I was very concerned when you said you were exiting this thread for good...I've never know you to make a threat like that before.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Perhaps, but I am pretty good at reading them, and do see some differences in that area.  However, I have not heard anyone say any part of the land is mined either.  But, they bought it from a mining company, so it is possible, no?

No, they didn't buy it from a mining company, they bought it from a sand company.

But I am asking questions. I know many out there know more about PV and its development than I.  I will sit back and listen.

As to the fruitless train debate, I would agree that most days, the golf crowd would take the express. 

Agree.


Don't know how light situation is, but its not mutually exclusive that they took every train in winter.

Jeff, he belonged to half a dozen clubs in the Philly area.
Golf at those courses in the winter wasn't ideal.
Golf in Atlantic City was. 

As Tmac pointed out (I think) in his 1933 telling of the story, he stared intently on many trips. 

I think it was a "chance glimpse" with one "gaze"

So, you have to presume all golf trips were in the winter, and also that the schedule didn't change from 1908 to 1910, and also that they NEVER missed the early train and had to take a slower train. 


Jeff, please reread the schedule.  The EARLIER TRAIN WAS THE SLOWER TRAIN.


Hey, they could go mid afternoon, stay in a hotel and play first thing the next morning. 

Jeff,  PLEASE reread the schedule, there was NO mid-afternoon train that stopped in Sumner.

Or, were they known to always be day trips?

If they went at night, there wouldn't be anything to see, would there ?

Again, its not worth the time we expend on it.

Yes, it is.

There were NO trains from AC to Philly that stopped at Sumner except one, and it was dark when that train, a train that made every stop, stopped at Sumner..
In addition, by the time the afternoon/evening express trains passed through Sumner from AC to Philly, except for the 3:00 pm train, it was dark.

So the window of opportunity, the underlying principles of the myth, are being narrowed down to improbable.

Plus Shelly directly refuted the newspaper myth in the officially sanctioned history of Pine Valley.

Are Mike Cirba and you stating that Pine Valley got it wrong ? 

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Why the obsession with proving what time it gets dark in NJ in winter?  Crump could have used Sumner station as a landmark to describe a location.  At least we know now that it existed.  It doesn't mean that he was on a train that stopped there when he noticed the site from the train.

What does it matter how much of the property he could see from the train? He wasn't designing all the holes from the train.  He presumably only noticed it as a potential site with interesting topographical features.  Whether he designed it on topos, or by going around on foot, or both, he certainly didn't have visions of specific hole corridors while riding past on the train. You favorite source, Shelley, said that maybe he saw the big picture, i.e. interesting terrain, from the train.  I think he may have speculated correctly.  All the proof he offers of the hunting option is Crump sitting in a forest, undated.  Hard to see the big picture in the undergrowth. 

No, they didn't buy it from a mining company, they bought it from a sand company.

What does a sand company do, if not mine it?   

How tall do you suppose the trees were in the swamp?  How would you know if it was a swamp if it was heavily forested with impenetrable pines?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Many old structures had cornerstones or date plates indicating the year of completion.
When I"m there next I'll look to see if there are any date markings.  It's reported that the lake was created in 1915-1916.
Perhaps it was this late date that allowed the 14th and 15th holes to take form.

It was reported 12/1914 that a 20 acre bog would be made into lake. Colt had a photograph of the lake in his 1920 book taken by Strohmeyer. I believe Strohmeyer photographed the course in 1915. And the 14th was described as a water hole in early 1915, so they had made the change by that time.

The electricity generated by that dam and water wheel structure were used to power the clubhouse and other facilities.
It's a clever idea, a twofer, create ponds/lakes for the golf course and generate power for the club.

If you look at the schematic below, you can see how the routings attempt to avoid that area since it was deemed swamp.
Someone, cleverly dammed the area, created holes within it and the capacity to generate power for the club.



It would seem that the individual who came up with the idea leading to the dual usage should get significant credit.

Supposedly, the genesis for the 14th and 15th holes was Crump's discovery/alteration in 1915 of the site for the 13th green, which led tot the reconfiguration of # 14 and # 15.

The new 13th hole was discovered early in 1915 or late in 1914. Tilly reported at the time Crump discovered the hole; Tilly some years later claimed he discovered the hole.

Could the creation of the lake and the resiting of the 13th green be connected in terms of the final routing ?

Not necessarily, when you have a 20 acre swamp I think the natural inclination would be to get rid of it by turning it into lake. The original routing skirted the bog so they were going to have to deal with it one way or the other, but you may be right because the repositioned 13th did necessitate a shift in the routing that produced more contact with the bog.

Perhaps the delay in holes 12-15, primarily 14 & 15 was the time necessary for the lake to form.
If the project to create the lake was undertaken in 1915-1916, perhaps it took a year or more for the lake to mature into its final configuration,  World War I might have influenced the pace of development/construction as well.

The 12-15 holes were the farthest holes from the clubhouse. The holes were completed in stages with the holes closest to the clubhouse being completed first. I believe the reason for delay was more related to there inability to keep the already completed holes alive. They were continually dying off.

Crump's resiting of the 13th green could have triggered the need to dam the outfall and create a lake, and new holes along with it.

In viewing some 1922-1925 ground and aerial photos, I noticed how dense the trees in the non-cleared areas surrounding the corridors of play are.
In addition, it's apparent that the height of many trees is well over 40', even in the cleared areas.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

First, let me apologize for going over the top the other day in my post.  Then, let me say, the post above makes me glad no one took me seriously.

Not sure why it took 12 pages for us to learn more about the progression of PV construction in your post than in all 394 posts that went before, but your post was factual, informative and concise.  It shared what you knew about PV for all our benefit, which is how I recall gca.com being back in the old days before we started taking it other acrimonious directions.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I would agree with Jeff's sentiments above.

If you keep posting like that I may never threaten to leave again.   


Jeff,

Over the top would have been "shot, then hung". 


Tom,

Just kidding...Jeff was out of line and I'm glad no one followed his lead.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I've been told "should be shot" is an internet slang for "remove his posting privleges."

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Did a quick re-read of the early posts on this thread, and you can see this derailing by the 20th post or so.

I found a re-read of Mikes post 26 - with the EJ Ford article - to be enlightening.

I get the sense from BOTH the Tillie and Perrin account that with all the accolades coming in, they were anxious to tell of their part of process.  Perrin sitting on a hill with Crump, Tillie riding from a train.  It's quite probable, IMHO, that there was a little prideful exageration on more than one side of this, and again, probably some truth to the discovery stories all around, as well.

Personally, I hope those who have real info on the process, rather than just opinion, continue to share what they have regarding how PV really developed.