Sun Mountain Or Clicgear?

[Kirk Moon]

"Speaking of which, can anyone enlighten me as to why so many private clubs still do not allow the use of push carts?"

Kirk Moon -

You comments have touched a nerve! Over the past few years, a number of the "better" private clubs in Northern California have purchased fleets of push carts for the members and guests to use, which I think is great. Unfortunately, there are still a few hold outs and one of them is where I play some of my golf.

I wish I had a definitive answer for you. I think push carts are still viewed in some quarters as being a little too "down market" and smacking of muni golf. It really is a shame.

DT    

Thanks David. I can see this is a somewhat hot topic here in the US.  It is a shame.  (Edit: I searched and found this thread -  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39230.35.html - devoted to the topic, so I can see that it has been hashed out before.  Apologies for the replay.)

I imagine that I am a not uncommon demographic in golf.  I'm 60.  A bit overweight.  Out of shape.  I play golf in part to get low level aerobic exercise in hopes of altering the aforementioned traits.  

I don't want to take an electric cart.  It defeats one of my main goals for playing.  

I would be happy to carry, but I am just not able to do it without becoming fatigued enough that my game starts falling apart on the back nine (perhaps some day this will not be a problem, but at the present time it is my reality.)  

I don't particularly want to hire a caddie for several reasons: 1) they aren't readily available, 2) I don't really want or need whatever information they might wish to impart to me - I like thinking for myself, 3) I don't want the added complexity of having to deal with managing a relationship with a stranger on the course when all I really want to do is get out and play and, 4) it adds a significant expense to the game that I don't wish to incur in order to walk the course.

In my experience, people (and institutions) that are very confident and comfortable with their status are less concerned with "maintaining an image" and do not find it necessary to create artificial barriers to separate themselves from the "riff raff".  An artificial defense of prestige smacks of insecurity, IMHO.  

The financial argument about electric carts vs. walking is understandable, but somewhat perverse.  I would like to think that private clubs, in particular, exist to meet the needs of their membership.  If my needs and desires (particularly when they are not unreasonable or irrational) cannot be met by the club because of perverse financial incentives or image related concerns, why would I want to be a member of that club?  

The speed argument seems specious to me for reasons stated above.  It is the player's speed of play, not the mode of transportation, that defines the overall speed of play.

BTW, in our area I notice that the Cal Club has its own fleet of push carts for the member's use.  The O Club won't allow them.  Not sure, but I think SFGC also doesn't allow them.  I commend the Cal Club for what I guess passes for "forward thinking" in this day and age.  

Shabby chic rules. Push carts now!  Denim next!   : )

[JMEvensky]

I am not saying this is true because I wasn't around back when riding carts were taking over the scene a few decades back. But purely as a disinterested observer here's what I can reconstruct of the history based on hand-me-down accounts...

At private clubs mid-20th-century the norm was to use caddies. A riding cart was viewed as a low-class, cheaper replacement for the caddie. Eventually the riding carts became so popular that most clubs could not keep their members from demanding to use them. So at some point the clubs bought fleets of carts and rented them to the members as a (considerable) income stream that also satisfied the demand for carts from the members.

Now along come the popular three-wheel trolleys. They are viewed as a low-class, cheaper replacement for the riding cart as well as for caddies at the clubs which still offer them. Some clubs insist that trolleys not be used but eventually the demand from their members becomes so great that they buy fleets of trolleys and rent them to the members as a (small) income stream that also satisfies the demand for them from the membership.

Is this anywhere close to the reality? Or just what it looks like from a distance?

A pretty good synopsis.

I'd add only that pull carts were always seen at muni's and are still associated with them.Also,what Lou Duran said about the club revenue from carts can't be exaggerated.Clubs' entire annual budgets are now reliant on cart fees.To alter this is uncharted territory and nobody wants to go there.

[David_Tepper]

Kirk Moon -

I agree with just about everything you say and you have summed up the situation pretty well. The Cal Club, Lake Merced, Monterey Peninsula CC and Sonoma here in NorCal have all made push carts available over the past few years. Regrettably, there are still holdouts.

I am 62 and still carry, but there are times when I would like to have the option of pushing a 3-wheeler if I was in the mood to do so.

DT    

[Kirk Moon]

Kirk Moon -

I agree with just about everything you say and you have summed up the situation pretty well. The Cal Club, Lake Merced, Monterey Peninsula CC and Sonoma here in NorCal have all made push carts available over the past few years. Regrettably, there are still holdouts.

I am 62 and still carry, but there are times when I would like to have the option of pushing a 3-wheeler if I was in the mood to do so.

DT    

Good to know about Lake Merced, MPCC and Sonoma.  Thanks.

BTW, it was not my intention to bash on caddies.  In some circumstances they are invaluable.  And fun.  I just don't think it is reasonable to be forced to use them simply because push carts are not an option, particularly when the option is excluded for what appear to be relatively indefensible reasons.  It's all about choice.  When paying an arm and a leg to belong to a private golf club, choice would seem to be a reasonable expectation.   

[Brent Hutto]

I would like to think that private clubs, in particular, exist to meet the needs of their membership.

The needs of the walking membership, the cart-riding membership or the non-golf-playing membership. My club has no problem with push carts so I shouldn't even be involved in this discussion but our membership is probably roughly 1/3 each of those three groups.

The non-golfers like people renting carts because it provides more money to subsidize the dining room and various social functions.

The cart riders don't seem to mind (much) paying their fees.

So that leaves us walkers to be viewed as free loaders by 2/3 of the club. And don't believe for a moment that they think anything else. Various "fees" and punitive "minimums" have been tried at times to equalize what the "other 2/3" thinks is our lack of contribution to the club's bottom line. None are satisfactory to the "other 2/3" (because they don't actually generate a significant amount of income) yet all of them piss off the most vocal of the walkers.

Me, I don't much care. I just pay the damned bill when it comes every month, show up and play golf, have lunch and go home. But the "needs of the membership" can not be defined by any one point of view, alas.

[Kirk Moon]

I would like to think that private clubs, in particular, exist to meet the needs of their membership.

The needs of the walking membership, the cart-riding membership or the non-golf-playing membership. My club has no problem with push carts so I shouldn't even be involved in this discussion but our membership is probably roughly 1/3 each of those three groups.

The non-golfers like people renting carts because it provides more money to subsidize the dining room and various social functions.

The cart riders don't seem to mind (much) paying their fees.

So that leaves us walkers to be viewed as free loaders by 2/3 of the club. And don't believe for a moment that they think anything else. Various "fees" and punitive "minimums" have been tried at times to equalize what the "other 2/3" thinks is our lack of contribution to the club's bottom line. None are satisfactory to the "other 2/3" (because they don't actually generate a significant amount of income) yet all of them piss off the most vocal of the walkers.

Me, I don't much care. I just pay the damned bill when it comes every month, show up and play golf, have lunch and go home. But the "needs of the membership" can not be defined by any one point of view, alas.

Enlightening.  Thank you.  I am in the process of looking for a club to join.  The one I am currently most interested in is a pure golf club that doesn't have social members (no pool, no tennis, no sun for that matter!).  It also happens to be one that allows push carts. I imagine that this is no coincidence. 

[Jerry Kluger]

I tried to get my club to consider electric hand carts to help those who want to walk but find some of the hills on #s17 and 18 really tough to push a cart up but they didn't want to spend the money.  So far as pushcarts go I think the stigma has passed at many clubs and more and more of our members are using them - I am still able to carry my bag.  I must admit that I am still a bit of a traditionalist, although some may call it a snob, when I find it in bad taste to change your shoes in the parking lot at a private club where every member must have a locker.

[Brent Hutto]

What do I know, I change my shoes at home before I leave to drive to the course!

[JMEvensky]

I must admit that I am still a bit of a traditionalist, although some may call it a snob, when I find it in bad taste to change your shoes in the parking lot at a private club where every member must have a locker.

I understand your point--one man's traditionalist is another's snob.

Here's the problem,IMO.You and I don't like to see guys changing shoes in the parking lot.Someone else finds wearing hats indoors classless.Same for denim and/or having your shirt untucked.

Back in the day,all of these "rules" and a million others were never questioned.This was just the way one acted at a private club.I'm not saying this was good or bad--just the way it was.

Now,pull carts are part of this generation war.To some,they scream "muni".To others,they represent one of the great joys of golf--walking.Neither side will ever convert the other.

It's tough to remain a traditionalist (snob) when clubs try to be everything to every member.Every member wants his own set of rules--and few clubs are willing to draw a line.

[Jerry Kluger]

I still believe that you should be courteous to others and if they would prefer that you act in a certain way then you should do what you can not to offend them - clubs have rules which can be changed but until they are it is best if everyone conforms to those rules otherwise each member will decide which rules to follow and which ones to not follow.  I believe that if you proposed that all rules of etiquette will be dispensed with at your club the vast majority would not find that acceptable.   

[JMEvensky]

I still believe that you should be courteous to others and if they would prefer that you act in a certain way then you should do what you can not to offend them - clubs have rules which can be changed but until they are it is best if everyone conforms to those rules otherwise each member will decide which rules to follow and which ones to not follow.  I believe that if you proposed that all rules of etiquette will be dispensed with at your club the vast majority would not find that acceptable.   

I agree completely.

I don't necessarily think the problem is with the members--the problem is with the clubs and their Boards.What seems to happen is that a few members don't like "this" rule--so rather than run the risk of a few resignations,a club changes the rule.Another few then don't like "that" rule,and the process repeats.

You end up with a million and one opinions of what constitutes that which is/isn't important.Nobody is really happy but nobody has resigned over what they consider a stupid,anachronistic rule.

The problem is that there's always somebody who thinks that some rule is stupid and anachronistic--and they're not shy about sharing their opinion.

[Ken Moum]

FWIW, when my wife and I moved to Topeka in 1998, one of the main criteria for choosing aplace to play was whether or not walking was allowed, and whether or not they'd allow her to use her electric motorcaddy.

The course we chose had a lot of other things going for it, but the fact that she saw several people walking with such devices on her first exploratory trip to teh course was a huge relief--because we wanted to join this club anyway.

Now we both use them, as do a number of others here, and the number of push carts sometimes amazes even me.

Back on topic, in addition to my Powakaddy, I have used a Sun Mountain V1 and V2, and pushed a Clic 3.0 at Prairie Dunes for two rounds. I also fooled around a bit with a friend's Sun Mountain Mini.

Given the furnace-like heat around Kansas these days, I find the umbrella option great, and use it with a Sun Mountain silver, UV umbrella to great effect.  But on all of them, the water-carrying equipment is horrible.  The Clic was the worst of all, dumping my water out when I needed it the most, on the back nine.

On my Powakaddy, I installed the sand bottle holders from one of these, now I can carry a quart water bottle, and a sand bottle.



Sadly, there's no way to install one on a pushcart.

Nevertheless, having pushed them all, I'd most likely buy a SM mini.

I would, however, love to see one of these new Bag Boys in operation.

[Kalen Braley]

Its funny how these sights on the golf course can be "OK"











But yet, this is "Not OK":   

[Garland Bayley]

...
I'd like to get an inexpensive ClipGear, but so few people I play with anymore locally walk that I just carry my bag most of the time on the few occasions when I get to do it.

So why do you play a course if they won't let you walk?

[Lou_Duran]

...
I'd like to get an inexpensive ClipGear, but so few people I play with anymore locally walk that I just carry my bag most of the time on the few occasions when I get to do it.

So why do you play a course if they won't let you walk?

At Great Southwest, after so many years of being an important part of my life, I quit playing tournaments and social events that required riding carts.  Being that golf is such a social endeavor and nearly all in my once very large group had either acquiesced or left, it took a few years, but I left the club.

Today, it is too awkward playing with friends and being the only walker in a foursome.  Though walking is an integral part of golf for me, it is obviously not for the vast majority of golfers.   And whether we want to admit it or not, riding carts are a hugely important economic factor for many golf clubs.  I may get to where golf loses its hold on me to the point that I stop playing, but it will likely be due to declining skills as opposed to not being allowed to walk (for the most part I can avoid those courses, but finding a walking game may be much more difficult).

[hick]

I belong to a private club in Rhode Island that has Kangaroo carts. Half the members have these motor push carts, and the new ones have remote controls as well. we have a dedicated building for these carts. I am surprised more clubs do not go this route. you buy it and pay a fee to store it.

[Sean_A]

As I definitely use a light weight carry bag, it sounds like the Clicgear is my best option.  Thanks for the input folks. 

Ciao

[Sean_A]

After haggling mightily with with a club pro I was able to buy a Clic Gear 3 at a good price.  I used it for the first time yesterday and was quite impressed even if I did feel a bit like I was pushing a zimmer frame around.  My ONLY negative criticism of the contraption is the umbrella holder is not adjustable.  This is a major oversight that will often mean I cannot use the holder.  Otherwise, a fine machine.  Thanks again for all the input.

Ciao

[A.G._Crockett]

After haggling mightily with with a club pro I was able to buy a Clic Gear 3 at a good price.  I used it for the first time yesterday and was quite impressed even if I did feel a bit like I was pushing a zimmer frame around.  My ONLY negative criticism of the contraption is the umbrella holder is not adjustable.  This is a major oversight that will often mean I cannot use the holder.  Otherwise, a fine machine.  Thanks again for all the input.

Ciao

Why would you not be able to use the holder?  I don't use my clic gear often; I mostly use it just for rainy days to get under the umbrella as I walk and not have to carry it.

I suppose if the angle of the holder is way, way off at the position that you like the handle, you could loosen it (on the 2.0 there are two screws that hold it on the handle) and get it just right.

[Sean_A]

AG

With wind about its important to tilt the umbrella into the wind or else too wind gets under the umrella.  This results in rain hitting me and the umbrella being lifted.  I noticed  the electric trollies had adjustable umbrella holders and I was jealous - heavy sigh.

Ciao 

[PThomas]

I must admit that I am still a bit of a traditionalist, although some may call it a snob, when I find it in bad taste to change your shoes in the parking lot at a private club where every member must have a locker.

I understand your point--one man's traditionalist is another's snob.

Here's the problem,IMO.You and I don't like to see guys changing shoes in the parking lot.Someone else finds wearing hats indoors classless.Same for denim and/or having your shirt untucked.

Back in the day,all of these "rules" and a million others were never questioned.This was just the way one acted at a private club.I'm not saying this was good or bad--just the way it was.

Now,pull carts are part of this generation war.To some,they scream "muni".To others,they represent one of the great joys of golf--walking.Neither side will ever convert the other.

It's tough to remain a traditionalist (snob) when clubs try to be everything to every member.Every member wants his own set of rules--and few clubs are willing to draw a line.

of course I dont do it, but I'm STILL waiting for someone to explain exactly why changing shoes in the parking lot is considered such a heinous act

[PThomas]

Its funny how these sights on the golf course can be "OK"











But yet, this is "Not OK":   

well said Kalen...maybe next time you can add in pictures of guys with shorts with knee high socks, guys wearing really out of date clothes,e tc...

[Paul Nash]

Sean - I think there is an optional adjustable umbrella holder! More bucks I am afraid but it is better!!

[Howard Riefs]

Any new opinions/experiences on the Sun Mountain vs. Clicgear debate?  I'm considering buying a push cart for my wife.

[Pete Balzer]

Howard,
Just ordered my wife the SM Micro. The main factor in my decision was the ease of use (folding/unfolding), weight, compact folded area (trunk space).