Raising junior golfers....

[Mike_Young]

I had an interesting discussion with an older (oldstyle) golf professional yesterday.  And I think he has a point.  First, I think First Tee is an expensive joke used by many of the larger Golf organizations as a politically correct gesture for which they will pay the cost and not worry of the results.  He was discussing such with me and agreeing.  BUT, he said that one reason our juniors did not grasp onto the game the way many of us did as youngsters was because of the way we now "specialize" our kids.  They either focus on football or baseball or basketball or golf.  We sned them to the camps that match the sports.  And so the kids that choose golf become "addicts" and burnout before adulthood often leaving the game until their 30's.  But in the 70's and before many of us were taught to play the game along side of football, basketball, baseball and grasp the fundamentals which allowed us to enjoy the game when we came back to it as adults.  That doesn't happen now.  It's either all or nothing .

I think he had a point.  Yes or no?

[Bart Bradley]

Mike:

Yes.  He has a point.  The whole "travel team" concept forces a kid to commit all of his time (and much of his family's time) to a single sport at a time.  Even if the sport is seasonal, it requires full commitment towards that sport for some portion of the year.  I watched as many of my son's friends gave up playing golf or other sports that they played for fun to concentrate on their "best" sport.  My wife and I never bought into this concept.  We wanted our son to have a broad experience with the benefits of sporting activities and team play but refused to make any one sport an around-the-clock monster.

Bart

[David Harshbarger]

Mike,

Saturday morning, baseball season ended for my older son at 10:45 am.  At 11:30 we were picking up his pads for football season.  At 2:00 we were teeing it up with my younger son, too.

Yesterday, when he called to check in from football camp, he asked if when camp is over, can we go golfing?  He was a little jealous, I think, when I told him that his younger brother and I just got back from an evening 9.

It was a running joke at my office during the school year that at 3:35 my phone would ring, and the following conversation would ensue...

"Hi, Paul."
....
"Yes, I am in a meeting."
....
"Yes, we can go golfing when I get home."
....
"Bye, Paul."

Sure, we make decisions on resource, time and money, allocation, but we try not to push the activites too hard.  Instead, we focus on providing access to what interests them, giving opportunities to experience new things, and making it fun.

The desire to be competitve and successful seems to take care of itself, and ultimately drives how much they want to immerse themselves.

Oh, and they still find plenty of time for the XBOX. :-)

Dave

[Scott Warren]

The title of the thread says it all.

Here's me thinking you raised children.

Defining a child by a sport they play (especially in pre-pubescent years) seems to me to be a fast track to unhappiness - and I must admit I say that as someone who hasn't got any children (that I know of ).

[Mark Pearce]

The last couple of years I have worried that my eldest son, who is a half decent golfer and has a much admired swing, was wasting the potential to be a good golfer because he didn't play that much and only got keen when on holiday in Elie.  Instead, during the summer, all he wanted to do was play cricket.  With some reservation I followed my wife's advice and didn't press him.  This year, now that, at 15, he's old enough and good enough to play adult cricket (at 3rd XI standard), I took up cricket again so we could play in the same team.  Of course, over the winter he grew and bulked up (it's all that rugby).  He has discovered that he can drive the ball 250 yards and all of a sudden all thos elong 400+ yard par 4s are reachable.  He can even get to some of the par 5s in 2, in the right conditions.  Now, all he wants to do is play golf.  Persuading him to turn up for cricket games is getting harder.

Some kids may be incredibly focussed and disciplined.  They may want to spend hours every week dedicated to a single sport and also have the talent to be really, really good.  Most, though, should be given the opportunity, encouraged to take it and be allowed to choose what they do. 

I don't think Cameron (or either of his brothers) will ever be a star.  I'm confident that he'll play 1st XV rugby at school (at a very good rugby school) and decent club rugby afterwards, if he wants.  He'll be good enough to play good level club cricket, if he wants.  And, if he wants, he has the tools to be a low single figure golfer.  Frankly, he'll be better at cricket and golf than I ever was but probably not as good a rugby player as I was hockey player.  If he gets the same level of pleasure from sport that I have over the years then I'll be absolutely delighted.

[John Shimp]

Raising a jr golfer is complicated now. They need to play a pretty extensive summer schedule at a min to play college golf if they want. They don't have to travel the country and hit all the ajga events though. They also don't need heavy year round competition to play major college golf. It is possible to dabble in other sports on varsity teams and be serious in the pursuit of college golf. I can back these statements up based on some kids in the Charlotte area. The intensity and focus does need to inrease as the jr reaches the last years of high school.

Not sure how to predict burnout and turning away from golf later.  I doubt there is much to that unless the parent/child go overboard against the Childs will

Also not sure why the swipe at the first tee. It isn't generally  about serious tournament golf, or singe minded golf focus.  I think the first tee provides a great first exposure to the game and some of it's lessons for mostly disadvantaged kids that otherwise wouldn't get any chance.  My limited first hand exposure to it has been really positive and nothing akin to "a joke".

[Mark Bourgeois]

A delightful surprise this summer with one of my kids has me turning over and over in my mind this prescient quote from GMBF:

"The key to getting involved with golf was Dad’s relaxed approach to the game."

[John Kavanaugh]

If you want your child to be like you be like your father.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike:

Yes.  He has a point.  The whole "travel team" concept forces a kid to commit all of his time (and much of his family's time) to a single sport at a time.  Even if the sport is seasonal, it requires full commitment towards that sport for some portion of the year.  I watched as many of my son's friends gave up playing golf or other sports that they played for fun to concentrate on their "best" sport.  My wife and I never bought into this concept.  We wanted our son to have a broad experience with the benefits of sporting activities and team play but refused to make any one sport an around-the-clock monster.

Bart

Bart,

I took this from your web-site "Matt Bradley-Travel Consultant", is this legit or some kind of tax dodge?  Isn't your travel an around-the-clock monster? 

[PCCraig]

Mike:

May I ask why you find The First Tee as an "expensive joke?"

I tend to agree with you regarding your second, more legitimate, point. I grew up playing quite a few different sports (Football, Hockey, Baseball, etc...) but ended up finding a love for golf pretty much on my own, considering my parents didn't play. Because I decided I liked it better by mid-high school, I naturally focused on it the most and pushed aside the other sports.

That being said, what's wrong with The First Tee being there so that children from low income families can find golf for themselves, as well? 

[Tim Martin]

Nothing could have made me happier than to see my oldest son become interested in golf at the age of 12 after a summer of travel baseball. He recently turned 16 and plays high school and junior golf. I have been extremely careful not to push him toward a rigid practice regimen as I want him to develop a love of the game without likening it to a job. Some kids will put more time in than others and they will develop quicker. The key I think is to not drive them away because at the end of the day the game has to be fun. I think everyone on this board gives their children a leg up because of their love for the game regardless of how far the kids take it. As far as the First Tee I don`t feel comfortable making a judgement but as a program designed to get kids interested in golf how bad can it be?

[Emil Weber]

I was raised playing tennis, basketball and golf. At one point I was pretty decent at all 3 sports, and that was just too much, then for a couple of years I focused only on golf. Now I've taken up basketball again (motivation to get started again was being able to dunk ), and sometimes play tennis again. It is a lot of fun to play several so different sports at the same time, I wish I hadn't given up tennis and basketball, especially now that I haven't really become a very good golfer.

[Ron Farris]

We all talk of perpetuating the game and to do that our children must be able to enjoy the game!  With the high price of golf memberships and the 4 (GD) hours it takes to play a round of golf, it is ever increasingly difficult to get children who are accustomed to Instant Gratification interested in golf. 

Jr. Golf has been a sour grapes situation for me.  I was fortunate to grow up on a golf course...literally.  My children have been afforded the opportunity to play golf at no charge, which turns out to me a non-issue for them.  Problem is their friend's parents, in a society that nearly requires both parents to work, can ill-afford the time, money, and effort it takes to get their children to golf.  Thus without friends taht play golf they all but find golf as a nuisance. 

My only goal for my children was to get them to the point where they could simply "enjoy the game".  I didn't expect the to compete at the highest level.  Certainly I hoped they would have the passion for the game that I have, but "forget about it".

My son is 17, going to be a senior, and he is pushed, PUSHED, daily by his mother to play golf.  So much so that he hates the game and it has now become work for him.  However, when he comes home from a round of golf his attitude is much improved.  He is playing Jr. Golf tournaments this summer, but only at the PUSHING of his mother.  The Push has given him a laisie faire attitude and his score reflects that attitude.

My son is not conflicted with football, basketball, or other sports. 

Is it an all or nothing endeavor for him.......I think not.  I know that he can now enjoy the game the rest of his life.  He can do business on the course, enjoy a corporate outing, and generally enjoy the sport.  Goal accomplished.  Will he will the State Championship.......no way.

Children today live in such a structured environment and they have become robotic in their nature.  The Asian culture is more programmed for such robotic approach to life, with children put on tracts in life at an early age.  Perhaps that is why the LPGA is now dominated by Asian robots.

Being like Dad is not going to happen in my family.  The majority of my golf in the last 2 decade has been played between 5:20 am - 7:00 am.
I have plans to play 10 days straight with my son when I return home from China.  This, according to my wife, will prep my son for Varsity golf.  Personally he could care less.  Personally I could care less……I just want to enjoy some treasured time with him to talk about other aspects of his life and not the fact that his elbow is too far from his body on the backswing. Other kids on the team have a passion for the game that he will never have.  I believe that to be a self-motivation problem in our family.   However, our back yard is full of ski jumps, rails, and other apparatuses that are passion driven, produced by self-motivation.  He can spend hours with his friends on the slopes and in the back yard. 

Have I failed as a golfing father?  I don't think so as he is now the 2nd best golfer in the family and likely to take over 1st place soon.

Is there something fundamentally wrong with Jr. Golf?  I don't think so.  I still see kids with a passion for the game, self motivation to go hit balls, and striving to be State Champions.  Robots will destroy the game, not a 2$ nausea.

How is Sean O'hair doing these days?

[Steve Kline]

I'll provide two perspectives - one as a kid and one as a parent.

I played many sports as a kid - baseball, basketball, soccer, tennis, golf (mom wouldn't let me play football but I probably wouldn't have liked the contact anyway). In the team sports I was almost always the best player on my team. I was always pretty good at golf for my age. I only played tennis one summer but probably could have been pretty good if I had a passion for it. My dad had me on the driving range at age 3 and other sports followed quickly. My parents coached my teams early on and were always at every sporting event - encouraging but never pushing. By the age of 9 I played on a traveling soccer team. We played year around - spring season, summer tournaments, fall season, and multiple indoor/winter seasons. All along my parents and I played lots of golf together. I played a few tournaments. One day at age 12 I wanted to play golf in the early spring as it was the first nice day. The soccer coach called that morning and said we were going to have practice. I told my dad I didn't want to go practice and I would rather go play golf. He if that was the case I needed to call the coach back and tell him I was no longer part of the team. I did just that (I was going to have to make a decision that fall anyway with soccer and golf in the same season in high school). I began playing golf all day, every day. My parents never pushed me but they gave me opportunity to pursue my interests. I played college golf with the hopes of turning pro. But, after two years in the SEC realized that turning pro was probably not going to be very fulfilling. I still play competitively at a reasonably high level and enjoy the game immensely.


My son is now 11. Before he was born I dreamed of having a son who was a fantastic golfer. We would play golf together every day like my dad and I did. Before he was born my dad even talked about the trips to Scotland the three of us would take together. At age five my son tried soccer but it was pretty obvious he didn't quite get was going on or have much interest. He played two seasons. Then he played football. He liked it at first as all his friends were on the team, but he was small and slow and didn't really have a good grasp of the game. TNow he has played basketball the last two years. He's clearly the worst player on the team. He just doesn't understand the game. But, he loves being on the team and always wants to go to practice. All along I have taken him with me to the golf course. Usually I ask him to go and he always says yes. But, he has never once asked me to go play golf (or do anything else as it is not his personality). He llikes playing golf with me and is good for about nine holes. He has a good natural swing and is starting to get the hang of chipping and putting. I want to him to swing as hard as he can because in the back of my mind I think if he ever wants to get good and play college golf he will need that distance. But, then I remind myself that we are out there to have fun and if he can actually hit the ball better swinging slower who cares? I wish my son had the potential to be a great golfer. At times I think it is already too late. But, then I read about Norman and many other pros who didn't really start playing until they were 15 or so and by 19 they were turning professional. It all depends on how much passion you have and how hard you are willing to work. While my son isn't a great athlete he is a very good piano player. So good that he got accepted to play in a piano festival in Italy in August. It wasn't my dream for him but I feel he needs to pursue what he wants and not what I want. Only then willhe be satisfied and successful.

[Michael Ryan]

I suggest anyone interested in this topic get the book "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle.  It was recommended to me by Mark Blackburn, a golf instructor who works with Robert Karlsson and Heath Slocum.  He is an Aussie who has some fascinating thoughts on the environments that people learn in-not just golf or sport for that matter.  My wife and I don't have kids yet, but I'm always skeptical observing parents of young children to pre-teens who feed their kids into 12 month a year programs related to any sport.  My opinion is that the obsession with college scholarships as well as "keeping up with the Jones' mentality" here in the US.  Specialization is something that Blackburn feels is necessary only around someone's 18th birthday, anything prior to that might help someone make an elite travel team at the age of 14, but probably stunt their development in later years.  I've had the pleasure through work of being around some very accomplished professional athletes, and I'm constantly amazed to hear them say things along the line of "I played baseball in the Bigs, but I could have been in the NBA".  I'm talking about guys like Chris Carter, Dave Winfield-not to mention guys that actually did play in multiple professional leagues like Jackson, Sanders and Ainge.  As you look at golf, I understand that the early years of guys like Rory, Tiger and Phil seem to be 100% golf, so as with anything in life, there are exceptions to any theory.  

Mike

[Jud_T]

Yes,

Things are different than when we were kids.  To keep up with the Joneses in sports kids are specializing by 5th grade, including travel teams, private coaches etc...  I even have one buddy who built a full indoor basketball court for his kid who will probably end up being all of 5'6"!  My son had a lukewarm experience with junior golf.  Even though he has a great natural swing, grinding over 6-footers in medal play events as a 10 and 11 year old, when all his buddies were playing baseball, basketball and football was not for him even though his best potential by far is in golf.  So now we've agreed that he just has to play with me and take the occasional lesson.  Why there isn't more match play in junior tournaments, particularly at that age, is beyond me.  Seems like it's all about grooming for college scholarships rather than teaching the etiquette of the game and particularly about instilling the joy of it...

[John Kavanaugh]

Steve,

Instead of writing bible verses on your golf balls put a skull and cross bones.  Your son might then think the game is cool.

I don't know many guys who are scratch golfers whose sons enjoy the game.  We make it look too easy and they get frustrated.  The game was more fun to learn when many of the pros hit low fades with ugly swings.  Geeze, if I couldn't have beat my dad by the time I was 12 I probably would have quit.

My sons biggest problems with junior golf have centered 100% around the adults who insist on being ever present.  No self respecting kid wants to spend time with their parents or the parents of others.  Why do you think they love XBOX?  It is the one damn thing they can do with their friends that Mommy doesn't want to watch and tell them how great they are doing.

While it won't work today my generation became far more successful on drugs than the current batch is doing with hugs.

[Will MacEwen]

Shivas,

Your point supports my theory on athletic scholarships.  They are not windfalls for the parents, they are likely just reimbursement. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Shivas,

Well that and most scratch golfers can get a game with an interesting group of guys while wall flower hacks are left with no one but their wives to play.  It is natural for a wife to enjoy playing if she feels she is her husbands first choice and not just some marital obligation.

[Bart Bradley]

Mike:

Yes.  He has a point.  The whole "travel team" concept forces a kid to commit all of his time (and much of his family's time) to a single sport at a time.  Even if the sport is seasonal, it requires full commitment towards that sport for some portion of the year.  I watched as many of my son's friends gave up playing golf or other sports that they played for fun to concentrate on their "best" sport.  My wife and I never bought into this concept.  We wanted our son to have a broad experience with the benefits of sporting activities and team play but refused to make any one sport an around-the-clock monster.

Bart

Bart,

I took this from your web-site "Matt Bradley-Travel Consultant", is this legit or some kind of tax dodge?  Isn't your travel an around-the-clock monster? 

John:

Not at all.  Our travel business is quite legit.  He works about 5-10 hours per week and thereby earns his own spending money. I don't even understand your last question.  My family loves to travel and we do it TOGETHER.

Bart

[Padraig Dooley]

A child will love golf if it's fun, they are good at it, they can do it with their friends or make more friends, they can do it with you and it makes them feel good. A child will dislike golf if it's not fun, they can't do it, they feel pressured to play, there is too much emphasis on competition and it physicaly hurts them.

Anybody teaching golf to a child should look to develop athletic abilities, teach golf skills and forge a love for the game.

As has been mentioned a child should only look to specialise at 16 at the earliest, mutliple sports (at least 5) up to 12, 2/3 sports up to 16. The problem is generally not with the sports but with the parents. Way too much emphasis on results rather than the process required to get them. Learning that the process is important will stick with someone for life, learning that results are important will only lead to lots of potential disappointment.

[JMEvensky]

I don't know many guys who are scratch golfers whose sons enjoy the game.  

This is damn insightful.I've sat here for 30 minutes trying to think of just 1 good player whose son actually enjoys the game and I'm not sure I can.I know some fathers whose sons play,and some of them play well,but I'm not certain that any of them really enjoys it.

I'd guess you'd need to find a father who was capable of just goofing off sometimes on the golf course and most really good players either can't or won't.

[Paul OConnor]

"... some guy to make a living under the fraud of a 501(c)(3) organization, and then moonlight as a for-pay coach on the side after hours on top of that.  It's disgusting."

Sad, but true.  And all the North Shore parents who fall for this racket are chumps. 

[Tim Gavrich]

In almost all the burnout cases I knew about when I was growing up playing competitive golf, the common thread seemed to be over-reliance on teachers.  If you think travel teams are crazily expensive, just consider what's going on when parents, in an effort to craft the next great golfer, send Junior to the local pro when he/she turns 10, 11, 12.  Congrats, parents: you have just created a child who may never be able to practice or play confidently without an expert pair of eyes watching EVERYTHING.  So much for self-reliance.  Small wonder there are so few young golfers who play by feel anymore.

I became drawn to golf and specialized in it from a fairly early age was partly because it was the one sport I was actually good at!  The other major part was that my father is a golfer (~10 hcp) and I wanted a way to spend time with him.  He knew and taught me the basics of the swing when I was five or six, and for the next few years the only other instruction I received was from fairly large junior golf camps in the area.  And even since then, I would wager I have received less personal instruction than at least 90% and probably more like 98% of people of my approximate age and ability.  I've had a total of, at most, 10 or 12 hours of one-on-one help in 15 years of playing golf.  I've always preferred to work stuff out on my own and supplement my knowledge with what I've read about the golf swing and what I've seen from better players on TV and in person.  The result is that I'm probably the biggest feel player I know--to a fault sometimes, I'll admit.  I see guys who get super-mechanical about EVERY SINGLE SHOT and wonder if they even have fun playing that way.

[David Harshbarger]

"... some guy to make a living under the fraud of a 501(c)(3) organization, and then moonlight as a for-pay coach on the side after hours on top of that.  It's disgusting."

Sad, but true.  And all the North Shore parents who fall for this racket are chumps. 

Y'all do it different downstate.  Up here, $75 for the travel team for the season covered all the itemized expenses: balls and umps.  Uniforms are numbers only, and came out of the rec league budget, as did the insurance.  Same uniforms are used in rec league all-stars, and are expected to be used next year.  Coaches are all volunteer dads.  I bet the cheers are just as loud, and the tears sting just as much for $75 as they do for $1000.

Back on topic - I've found the following successful with beginning kids:

• Use the Junior Par System http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/Golf-is-for-Kids-too!/ My kids ask now, "What's par for me, 7?"  Then when they get a 6 on a par 4, they are psyched!
• Don't count duffs, lost balls, misses, etc.  They've got plenty of time to take penalty strokes later.
• As long as we're not being pushed, allow redos.  Count the redo score.
• Let them steer the cart.  (Corollary: no forced death marches with bag over shoulder.)
• NO unsolicited swing advice.  If they ask, answer.  NO negative comments or post swing corrections.  Lots of high-fives and fist bumps on good shots.
• When they call you to ask if you will take them golfing, just say YES!