Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday

[Greg Tallman]

Pretty sure should have been $306 and I fully understand the feelings toward the sales presentation following the round. You are not the only person to identify 12 and 13 as out character but i would bet if you asked Paul he would say it was born more out of their desire to fit the 11th hole as you see it today into the routing and the only way to do that was to go down out of the dune and come back after playing the 11th which is obviously a great hole.

Agreed that 11 is a great hole.  Tough decisions had to be made I guess, but 12 and 13 bring the entire effort down as I mentioned.  Really, the cost was much closer to 400.  Checked with my travel partners and they checked their credit cards.  Showed $392 based on the exchange.  

Interesting. That does not correspond to anything I have seen there. What part of the 12th and 13th brings down the entire course?

[Bart Bradley]

This thread is a great one, the same a golf hole is great. It identifies people's character.

Well Done Jim.

I fear you might be expected to live up to the tasks and deeds of the last 3 months.

Play it as you find it.

Adam or Bart,

Please name one thing remotely positive about this thread.

We found out you are a professional engineer.

Well, I am not above bragging which is why I understand why people enjoy having the chance to list the great courses they have played. I'm not sure, because I missed the movie, but isn't bragging one of the seven deadly sins?  It never leads to anything good.

John

First you complain that the votes are private and then you complain about bragging?

You sir simply enjoy making the contrarian statement.

Bart

[Jim Nelson]

Pretty sure should have been $306 and I fully understand the feelings toward the sales presentation following the round. You are not the only person to identify 12 and 13 as out character but i would bet if you asked Paul he would say it was born more out of their desire to fit the 11th hole as you see it today into the routing and the only way to do that was to go down out of the dune and come back after playing the 11th which is obviously a great hole.

Agreed that 11 is a great hole.  Tough decisions had to be made I guess, but 12 and 13 bring the entire effort down as I mentioned.  Really, the cost was much closer to 400.  Checked with my travel partners and they checked their credit cards.  Showed $392 based on the exchange.  

Interesting. That does not correspond to anything I have seen there. What part of the 12th and 13th brings down the entire course?

They take a course, which is an interesting routing thru the dunes, out to the flat area which you could find anywhere in the world on a basic resort course with 2 ordinary holes wrapped around a lake.  When you look at the lots lining 12/13, you are transported to Vegas/Scottsdale/Florida.  Again, the course has many redeeming holes, some great.  But when you are asking if it is a top ten post-modern, the answer for me is no.  A unique product for that market? yes.  

[Greg Tallman]

Jim,

In fairness 8 and 9 do the same. The difference in my mind is they flow within the routing whereas 12 and 13 break the flow. I dont see the housing as the reason or really intrusive. A narrow dune structure and prevailing wind would seem to be the major factors in choosing that routing, along with the quality and wow factor at 11.

[David Harshbarger]

This thread is a great one, the same a golf hole is great. It identifies people's character.

Well Done Jim.

I fear you might be expected to live up to the tasks and deeds of the last 3 months.

Play it as you find it.

Adam or Bart,

Please name one thing remotely positive about this thread.

We found out you are a professional engineer.

That is remotely positive.  Well played.

[John Kavanaugh]

This thread is a great one, the same a golf hole is great. It identifies people's character.

Well Done Jim.

I fear you might be expected to live up to the tasks and deeds of the last 3 months.

Play it as you find it.

Adam


This thread highlights the good and bad of the website.

Jim:

After visiting Ballyneal again this weekend, the extent of your efforts to help Ben Cox is even more clear to me.  You have EARNED much more good will than you have been afforded on this thread.  Your work on this thread deserves thanks as well. Your point about listing more courses is quite valid.  If we were ranking the Top 50 an entirely different list of nominees may have been generated.  In fact, I was asked to second a nomination but declined stating that I felt the course would not merit Top 10 status.  But I certainly would have nominated it if we were trying to identify the Top 50.

Bart

Bart,

 Thanks for the kind words. However, I don't view this thread as related to the Ben Cox fundraiser at all, nor do I expect any leeway or latitude because of it. . I simply offered to help Tom compile the ballots and post the results, which was bound to be more trouble than it'
 was worth. I do think the results are a pretty fair representation of the collective opinion of the 116 voters, though another 10 votes on Ellerston and Wolf Creek would've gone a long way.  If you polled 100 digest or golfweek Raters, you'd probably get a different set of results. I openly welcome anybody else taking a different stab at this and sharing the results.

Jim,

I'm sure we could agree on two things.  The first being that people submitted their votes because this is a Tom Doak thread and idea.  To tell people to take a stab at this without you freeing up the votes submitted because of Tom is misleading a best. If Tom Doak request the individual ballots will you reveal them to him?

[David_Elvins]

Please name one thing remotely positive about this thread.

8 of the top 10 courses are positively remote. 

[Jim Nelson]

Jim,

In fairness 8 and 9 do the same. The difference in my mind is they flow within the routing whereas 12 and 13 break the flow. I dont see the housing as the reason or really intrusive. A narrow dune structure and prevailing wind would seem to be the major factors in choosing that routing, along with the quality and wow factor at 11.

Thanks for reminding me about the long transport from 9 to 10 via cart.  Not a fan of 9 but I did enjoy 8.  I wonder if you will have different thoughts when 12/13 are surrounded by houses as the developer hopes and prays.  Again, this course is built as part of a housing development.  No crime there, but I am guessing that compromises had to be reached while still delivering a quality course.  I think they achieved that, but the routing has its challenges.  The exact reasons for the routing are known to those closely involved in the project.  It would be interesting to know, but these things rarely are brought to the light when there are various parties in the mix.  You could well be right and perhaps have some of that knowledge.  Greg, were you or are you involved in Diamante in some way?  An interesting routing challenge and one that probably merits further examination by those with much more knowledge than me.  

[Greg Tallman]

Jim,

In fairness 8 and 9 do the same. The difference in my mind is they flow within the routing whereas 12 and 13 break the flow. I dont see the housing as the reason or really intrusive. A narrow dune structure and prevailing wind would seem to be the major factors in choosing that routing, along with the quality and wow factor at 11.

Thanks for reminding me about the long transport from 9 to 10 via cart.  Not a fan of 9 but I did enjoy 8.  I wonder if you will have different thoughts when 12/13 are surrounded by houses as the developer hopes and prays.  Again, this course is built as part of a housing development.  No crime there, but I am guessing that compromises had to be reached while still delivering a quality course.  I think they achieved that, but the routing has its challenges.  The exact reasons for the routing are known to those closely involved in the project.  It would be interesting to know, but these things rarely are brought to the light when there are various parties in the mix.  You could well be right and perhaps have some of that knowledge.  Greg, were you or are you involved in Diamante in some way?  An interesting routing challenge and one that probably merits further examination by those with much more knowledge than me.  

Jim, No I am affiliated with Cabo del Sol but know Diamante rather well.

[Tom_Doak]

Well, I've been traveling all day today, and just got to an airport lounge to see all the fur fly.

First off, a lot of people here owe Jim Colton an apology.  All he did was offer to volunteer his own valuable time to input the data from all you experts, and he's gotten mostly grief for taking the trouble.  For my part, Jim -- I'm sorry I got you into it.


I have not seen the ballots and don't have any desire to see any of them that the posters did not choose to make public.

I DID ask Jim to cut off the list at 20 or 25 courses, max, because the point of the original thread was a top ten, and because the courses which finished #30 or #40 might be embarrassed as such.  Somewhere I still have a sweater from Tumble Creek embroidered to honor their #7 Best New finish in the GOLF DIGEST poll years ago    and I wear it with pride because that's how much these rankings really mean.

I don't even understand precisely how Jim added up the data, but I know if you crunch the numbers different ways the same courses still wind up around the top.  As Jim says, a few of the courses which have only a few votes are more suspect than the rest, but part of the fun here is to identify courses which MIGHT be worthy of inclusion, instead of just paying attention to the same courses everyone has already seen.

Personally, for me there were several surprises down the list a ways, but when you see them put in order, it does shine a light on the depth of quality courses that have been built in the past 15 years.  Melvyn doesn't like it being called a Golden Age, but it has certainly been a bit of a rebirth of quality design, or something like that.

I'm also surprised [and pleased] to see how close Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle finished.

[Jim Nelson]

Jim,

In fairness 8 and 9 do the same. The difference in my mind is they flow within the routing whereas 12 and 13 break the flow. I dont see the housing as the reason or really intrusive. A narrow dune structure and prevailing wind would seem to be the major factors in choosing that routing, along with the quality and wow factor at 11.

Thanks for reminding me about the long transport from 9 to 10 via cart.  Not a fan of 9 but I did enjoy 8.  I wonder if you will have different thoughts when 12/13 are surrounded by houses as the developer hopes and prays.  Again, this course is built as part of a housing development.  No crime there, but I am guessing that compromises had to be reached while still delivering a quality course.  I think they achieved that, but the routing has its challenges.  The exact reasons for the routing are known to those closely involved in the project.  It would be interesting to know, but these things rarely are brought to the light when there are various parties in the mix.  You could well be right and perhaps have some of that knowledge.  Greg, were you or are you involved in Diamante in some way?  An interesting routing challenge and one that probably merits further examination by those with much more knowledge than me.  

Jim, No I am affiliated with Cabo del Sol but know Diamante rather well.

Thanks for the clarification.  Wasn't trying to be confrontational, so hope you didn't take it that way.  Speaking of routing, El Dorado has some of the most bizarre routing i have ever experienced.   I think we can agree there were housing considerations there.  I would be interesting to start a thread on Cabo courses now that there are a couple of more with Diamante and Bahia de los Suenos (sp?) further up north.

[Jim Nelson]

This thread is a great one, the same a golf hole is great. It identifies people's character.

Well Done Jim.

I fear you might be expected to live up to the tasks and deeds of the last 3 months.

Play it as you find it.

Adam


This thread highlights the good and bad of the website.

Jim:

After visiting Ballyneal again this weekend, the extent of your efforts to help Ben Cox is even more clear to me.  You have EARNED much more good will than you have been afforded on this thread.  Your work on this thread deserves thanks as well. Your point about listing more courses is quite valid.  If we were ranking the Top 50 an entirely different list of nominees may have been generated.  In fact, I was asked to second a nomination but declined stating that I felt the course would not merit Top 10 status.  But I certainly would have nominated it if we were trying to identify the Top 50.

Bart

Bart,

 Thanks for the kind words. However, I don't view this thread as related to the Ben Cox fundraiser at all, nor do I expect any leeway or latitude because of it. . I simply offered to help Tom compile the ballots and post the results, which was bound to be more trouble than it'
 was worth. I do think the results are a pretty fair representation of the collective opinion of the 116 voters, though another 10 votes on Ellerston and Wolf Creek would've gone a long way.  If you polled 100 digest or golfweek Raters, you'd probably get a different set of results. I openly welcome anybody else taking a different stab at this and sharing the results.

Jim,

I'm sure we could agree on two things.  The first being that people submitted their votes because this is a Tom Doak thread and idea.  To tell people to take a stab at this without you freeing up the votes submitted because of Tom is misleading a best. If Tom Doak request the individual ballots will you reveal them to him?

I could care less about who started the idea.  And really, isn't this just about seeing what comes up for fun?  I think it is an interesting exercise which can spark some discussions on the relative merits of courses.  Rankings are not a science.  They are opinions pure and simple and will always be subject to interpretation.  So what?  The day you have a list where everyone agrees, the world will come to an end.  We don't want that, at least yet.

[Greg Tallman]

Jim,

In fairness 8 and 9 do the same. The difference in my mind is they flow within the routing whereas 12 and 13 break the flow. I dont see the housing as the reason or really intrusive. A narrow dune structure and prevailing wind would seem to be the major factors in choosing that routing, along with the quality and wow factor at 11.

Thanks for reminding me about the long transport from 9 to 10 via cart.  Not a fan of 9 but I did enjoy 8.  I wonder if you will have different thoughts when 12/13 are surrounded by houses as the developer hopes and prays.  Again, this course is built as part of a housing development.  No crime there, but I am guessing that compromises had to be reached while still delivering a quality course.  I think they achieved that, but the routing has its challenges.  The exact reasons for the routing are known to those closely involved in the project.  It would be interesting to know, but these things rarely are brought to the light when there are various parties in the mix.  You could well be right and perhaps have some of that knowledge.  Greg, were you or are you involved in Diamante in some way?  An interesting routing challenge and one that probably merits further examination by those with much more knowledge than me.  

Jim, No I am affiliated with Cabo del Sol but know Diamante rather well.

Thanks for the clarification.  Wasn't trying to be confrontational, so hope you didn't take it that way.  Speaking of routing, El Dorado has some of the most bizarre routing i have ever experienced.   I think we can agree there were housing considerations there.  I would be interesting to start a thread on Cabo courses now that there are a couple of more with Diamante and Bahia de los Suenos (sp?) further up north.

That is the second iteration of El Dorado and yes, it now ranks as beyond bizarre in terms of routing. They removed 4 ocean front holes. 15-17 are new, 18 used to be 7, 9 used to be 16, 13 & 14 used to be 4 & 5... and i could go on.

Fire up the thread and I will jump in from time to time. We might as well include the La Paz courses, an Art Hills and a Gary Player.

[Greg Tallman]

Jim - I should note I also really like 8 at Diamante which is a very good shortish par 4... particularly for someone of my modest length.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Barney
Here is what I see positive that came from this thread and or what I learned.

Doak and Coore & Crenshaw have a great body of work and have 1/2 of the courses on the list and have had the most opportunity.
Fazio and Dye are past their prime.
Phillips and Hanse have been doing very good work for a long time and are getting more opportunities.

And yet there are still opportunities (maybe given the right circumstances*) for an individual to do great work:
Harrison, DeVries, Kidd, Blasi and myself.
*Circumstances including good support from their bosses, Norman and RTJ2 or only having to only please 1 person.

I'll add Whitman too, even though I gave BlackHawk *, Cabot looks like **.

Lastly I learned Cape Kidnappers is not just a hot blonde.

Cheers
Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim lives for this crap.  He knew exactly what he was getting into when he took the job.  Where has anyone offended him? I know I have tried and it just ain't possible. When did questioning the evaluation of statistics become a sin?  No one, including me, has questioned his character, only his methods. The results are fine, but that is not the point.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

 I see zero credibility in a process where the architect with the most courses on the list and a guy who literally sings the praises of his home course control the ballots.  

Jim you have been exposed. Clearly this whole thread has been a conspiracy by you and Tom to get "I'm on a Doak" rereleased to the general public. Your lyrics mention 4 courses that have miraculously appeared in this top 10, I'm sure that was no accident. Have you no shame?

[Kevin Pallier]

Jim,

I'm sure we could agree on two things.  The first being that people submitted their votes because this is a Tom Doak thread and idea.  To tell people to take a stab at this without you freeing up the votes submitted because of Tom is misleading a best. If Tom Doak request the individual ballots will you reveal them to him?

John

Bollocks - I participated for the same reason I joined GCA - because I like to discuss opinions on golf courses. It had nothing to do with it being a Doak thread.

I find it laughable that you have a crack at transparency yet don't want to post your own rating of the 10 courses you've seen ? Hypocritical ?

[Chris Johnston]

All

I appreicate the work Jim/Tom did here.  I don't understand the methodology driving the final outcome.  I would like to see "another iteration" with average star ratings per course and total number of votes for the field - should be very easy to produce.  I don't much care to see the vote by individual and, since many participants haven't played the entire field allowing vote of one over another, it is less than scientific.  Its just fun.

Why not post the average star rating as a different look?  If it confirms the posted conclusion, that strengthens the original outcome.  I'm guessing this isn't the last time this will be done.

[Jim Colton]

Tom,

I'm not expecting an apology as like John said, it comes with the territory. Well maybe from Anthony Fowler for not giving me the benefit of the doubt.  Some of the comments about bias and cries of impropriety were revealing and mildly entertaining.

Mike, there are a couple guitar covers of I'm on a Doak out there. The chords are Am, C, F, G if anybody wants to take a stab at it - great fun! Somewhat fitting reference considering how much perceived b-boyism there seems to be out there. Do folks really believe that a huge chunk of GCAers simply follow Doak around like a lap dog? I guess I'm lumped into that group, although I don't know anybody who truly thinks that way.  I dd give Sebonack a *-star rating, but I guess folks will argue that I averaged *** for Doak's contribution, 0 for Jack's and just rounded down from there.

Chris, there aren't really any major differences when you look at average scores. Ellerston was 9th, Wolf Point cracked the top 10 and Ballyneal was 3rd. But like Anthony pointed out, those numbers are easy to manipulate by skewing one's ballot (definitely some of that going on). I didn't focus on the star ratings, instead looked how the courses fared relative to each other.

 I'm guessing you want to see where DR ended up. DR had 2 ***, 1 **, 6 * and 9 0's. Its average score would put it 46th. My scoring method put it 45th. There are about 55 public votes between this and the nomination thread. If somebody wants to take a stab at tallying them up, go for it.

[Anthony Fowler]

I'm not expecting an apology as like John said, it comes with the territory. Well maybe from Anthony Fowler for not giving me the benefit of the doubt.  

Jim, I never intended to criticize you personally and I did in fact apologize for misunderstanding your analysis.  I don't know how we're supposed to give you the benefit of the doubt when you don't explain your procedure and you don't provide any substantive interpretation of your estimates.  I would still like to know precisely what you did, and as I said before, I am suspicious of the standard errors (that's not your fault, it's just that standard errors are really hard to calculate in situations like this).

My own inclination, as a first cut, would be to use each individual rating as an observation, and regress (ordinarily least squares) each rating on dummy variables for each rater and dummy variables for each course (course and rater fixed effects).  You would omit one course (say Sand Hills, it's arbitrary), and then the coefficient on each course would represent the number of stars that that particular course got over (or under) Sand Hills (having controlled for each rater's level of generosity).  The standard errors would still be pretty tricky, but clustering by rater would give a pretty good approximation.  I'd be happy to talk more about this offline.

Thanks again for your hard work in putting all of this together.  These ratings are a great resource for me and other GCAers (much better than the magazine ratings).  That's part of the reason I'm so interested in the data and the methodology involved.   

[Andy Troeger]

There's no reason to believe there's any impropriety here--this list is an accurate reflection of the tastes of this group. What it does show is perhaps how different this groups tastes are compared even to the average magazine panelists. What's interesting to me in the results is the number of ballots from each course. Rock Creek, for example, has three times as many ballots (27) as Gozzer Ranch (9). Victoria National has been open for quite awhile and has 20 ballots, less than half of Friar's Head which is supposed to be one of the harder tickets out there to access. Ballyneal, a private club that requires some effort to get to, has far more ballots than Chambers Bay or Whistling Straits, public facilities (at least in name if not in cost for WS) within reasonable distance from major cities. I think its a very reasonable statement that folks in this exercise seek out a certain type of course and that is shown in the results. There's nothing wrong with that, but the results are very different than if you took a different group and did the same survey.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Nice Andy T.
And this group is one that appreciates the architecture, not the cart girls or steak tar-tar appetizers on the 12 tee.
I value this group's opinion above any other group.
Cheers

[Jim Colton]

Anthony,

 My tongue was firmly planted in cheek when I asked for an apology. It sounds like you are on the right path. I urge you to start a thread asking for data (or work with JaKa) and share the results. There are enough public votes on this and the nomination thread in order to get a jump start.

[John Kavanaugh]

Oh come on, we had 100 votes out of 1000 posters along with a few non-members.  There were nine people who claim to have played Pacific Dunes and not Bandon Dunes.  Jim asked on his twitter for votes.  The only thing this represents is what friends of Jim like and fans of Doak prefer thrown in with a few nutty Aussies who expressed concern that America was going to win.   It is like taking a shoe survey at a Taylor Swift concert.

That being said, I agree with the results as a reflection of that demographic.

There was a time in the not so distant past that Ran would delete any attempt to develop a Golfclubatlas rating system.  There have been instances in the past when posters have called courses asking for access posing as a Golfclubatlas employee because they ran an ongoing thread series similar to this. 

This site is best at providing individuals an avenue to express their own opinions and any attempt to suggest a consensus is harmful to its most valuable contributors.