Top Ten Post-modern - voting ends Sunday

[Jim Colton]

Here are courses that are in need of more votes, so if you've played any of these, I urge you to chime in:

http://www.dunkladder.com/sort2.html

Wolf Point 8
Calusa Pines 8
Castle Stuart 7
Kauri Cliffs 7
Diamante 6
Alotian Club 6
Sagebrush 6
Gozzer Ranch 6
Quarry at Giant's Ridge 6
Sutton Bay 4
Nanea 3
Pinnacle Point 3
Kinloch NZ 2
Ellerston 1
Oitavos Dunes 1

[John Kavanaugh]

If the results are going to be posted a link to the votes should be posted also.  I see zero credibility in a process where the architect with the most courses on the list and a guy who literally sings the praises of his home course control the ballots.  I mean really, three threes and a one averages 2.5. What the hell is that, a three or a two?  It all depends who gave it a one, doesn't it?

[Jud_T]

Shiv,

hard to find much to quibble with, but 0 for Rustic?

[Jim Colton]

If the results are going to be posted a link to the votes should be posted also.  I see zero credibility in a process where the architect with the most courses on the list and a guy who literally sings the praises of his home course control the ballots.  I mean really, three threes and a one averages 2.5. What the hell is that, a three or a two?  It all depends who gave it a one, doesn't it?

John,

  You do raise an interesting point, although I'm slightly offended that you'd think I'd cook the books on a silly GCA ranking where my home course is bound to be in the top 3-4 regardless of who's doing the numbers. There aren't going to be any big surprises at the top: Sand Hills, Pac Dunes, Ballyneal or Barnbougle and then Friar's Head. Feel free to go through the public posts in this and the other thread and you'll come up with the same findings.

  I thought about asking balloters to denote when and where they had an affiliation with a particular course on their ballot, then I could account for it in the numbers. But in the end, I don't think it makes much of a difference. I think people join a course because they love it, not the other way around.

[Carl Nichols]

I thought I had played more of these courses.  

Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
Ballyneal
*Bandon Dunes
*Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Black Mesa
Boston G.C.

*Cal Club
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
**Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Ellerston
Erin Hills

Friars Head
Gozzer Ranch
Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kinloch (N.Z.)
*Kinloch (Va.)
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea

Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
***Pacific Dunes
Pinnacle Point, S. Afr.
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon

Sagebrush
Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
*Whistling Straits (Straits)
Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

I think you proved you would not cook the books when I won sixth place in your raffle.  

[Jim Colton]

Jim,

I think you proved you would not cook the books when I won sixth place in your raffle.  

I was more offended when you didn't pick the Yucca

[John Kavanaugh]

Shivas,

How about the really odd fact that I believe both Jim and I would have joined Sand Hills instead of Ballyneal and/or Dismal if we had that opportunity.  That makes it impossible not to give Sand Hills at least a rating as high as our home course without looking like some kind of spiteful twit.  I also believe that if the total of this survey is known that information should be public also.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

I think you proved you would not cook the books when I won sixth place in your raffle.  

I was more offended when you didn't pick the Yucca

I just bought a house and could not afford to pay someone to be my partner.

[Dan Kelly]

Being brutally honest, subjectivity as to not only one's home course but also as to the other courses designed by the same architect is a tough ask of you.

Good point -- but don't you mean "objectivity"?

Of course, I think it's ALL subjective -- which is why I think the idea of *ranking* excellent courses is a crock from beginning to end.

You might as well rank Picasso's Greatest Artworks.

[Jim Colton]

John, speak for yourself on that one.

Here's a somewhat interesting factoid, the top 5 courses with the most polarizing scores (minimum 25 votes)

1. Old Macdonald
2. Rock Creek
3. Kingsley Club
4. Sebonack
5. Bandon Trails

[Eric Smith]

Is the voting limited to golfclubatlas posters?

[Jud_T]

Being brutally honest, subjectivity as to not only one's home course but also as to the other courses designed by the same architect is a tough ask of you.

Good point -- but don't you mean "objectivity"?

Of course, I think it's ALL subjective -- which is why I think the idea of *ranking* excellent courses is a crock from beginning to end.

You might as well rank Picasso's Greatest Artworks.

Dan,

Some of us simply enjoy making lists    Seriously, In my mind the point isn't to determine bragging rights amongst small gradations at the very top, but rather to expose interesting courses in the middle to lower end that might suit a particular readers' interests and get guys to put them on their radar.  Of course we all want to play Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Pac Dunes etc. but after seeing the results the casual reader may henceforth pass over Arcadia Bluffs or Whistling Straits and seek out Hidden Creek, Rustic Canyon etc...

[Tom_Doak]

If the results are going to be posted a link to the votes should be posted also.  I see zero credibility in a process where the architect with the most courses on the list and a guy who literally sings the praises of his home course control the ballots.  I mean really, three threes and a one averages 2.5. What the hell is that, a three or a two?  It all depends who gave it a one, doesn't it?

John K:

I hesitated to get involved in this to begin with, because it was inevitable that someone will accuse me of bias and of setting the whole thing up to benefit myself.  At least it was a friend who did it! 

The original thread just had guys posting their top tens.  It was pointless because they didn't explain how many courses they'd actually seen and which ones they were voting "against", or whether they were just rating a course highly because they hadn't actually seen any of the best ones.  That was the idea behind the ballot, to get everyone on the same footing, to the extent possible.  I didn't really care if we had "results" or not as long as everyone posted clearly which of the courses they've seen.  And what I've been sort of surprised at is how most people have seen the same 20-25 courses and few of them have seen the other possible contenders.

[Tom_Doak]

P.S.  Every single person who is voting is biased in some way or another.  As Mark McCormack once said, you're not really in the golf business unless you have a couple of conflicts of interest.    Are you going to be the guy who determines which votes to throw out?  Because giving anybody THAT power would put their own biases at the forefront.

I actually posted my own list, in spite of the howls it will bring from some people, because I believe in full disclosure.  But, I'm glad that others insisted we only vote on the courses we've played.  If I'd had to post my opinions on some of the courses I'd seen but not played, it would have been more controversial.

[Eric Smith]

Tom and Jim,

Is the voting limited to golfclubatlas posters? Are there ballots in the box from folks outside of the dg?

[Eric Smith]

My ballot.

***
Ballyneal
Kingsley Club
Dismal River
Sand Hills

**
Victoria National

*
Arcadia Bluffs

0
Wild Horse

[Garland Bayley]

If the results are going to be posted a link to the votes should be posted also.  I see zero credibility in a process where the architect with the most courses on the list and a guy who literally sings the praises of his home course control the ballots.  I mean really, three threes and a one averages 2.5. What the hell is that, a three or a two?  It all depends who gave it a one, doesn't it?

No one is controlling your ballot. So where is it?

If you haven't played Wolf Point, then you best shut up.

Pat Mucci

[Tom_Doak]

Tom and Jim,

Is the voting limited to golfclubatlas posters? Are there ballots in the box from folks outside of the dg?

Eric:

I have not seen any of the ballots.  I suspect that Jim would only enter e-mails from guys whose names he recognizes from this forum, but, you'd have to ask him to be sure -- and I think he's off for the weekend.

[Kalen Braley]

Safe to say...

I think everyone, most importantly John K can sleep well knowing that nobody will be paying attention to this list as GCA.com is in a teeny tiny dark corner of the internet that is not frequented by many.

While its a really fun exercise for those of us here, I don't think anyone else is paying much attention! 

[Jim Colton]

Tom and Jim,

Is the voting limited to golfclubatlas posters? Are there ballots in the box from folks outside of the dg?

Eric,

  There have been lurkers that have submitted their ballots and have identified themselves as such. But it's probably 95% GCA folk so far. It's not an official GCA ranking so I'm not terribly concerned about weeding out non-GCA types.

[Sean Leary]

My ballot.

***
Ballyneal
Kingsley Club
Dismal River
Sand Hills

**
Victoria National

*
Arcadia Bluffs

0
Wild Horse

Eric,

Where would you view your 3 star courses being in therms of best in the world. Top 15? 25? 50?  What people determine as 3* base on Tom's description varies wildly in this thread and skews the rankings incredibly..

[Eric Smith]

Sean,

I understand the 3* to mean top 10 in the world opened after 1995.  I have been wrong before.

[Jud_T]

***  One of the very best courses in the world, modern or old

[Michael George]

I am embarrassed to post on this topic with the limited post 1995 courses that I have played,  but for what it is worth:


***
Pacific Dunes


**
Bandon Dunes
Whistling Straits


*
Calusa Pines
Arcadia Bluffs
Bandon Trails
Erin Hills

0
The list is too good to have a 0.