[Mark Saltzman]

Wine Valley was one of the final golf courses I played on my 23 day trip that included almost 40 rounds of golf.  Wine Valley is certainly in my top 5 and would rank somewhere between a 7.5 and an 8.5 on the Doak scale.  This course must be seen, even if it requires a fair bit of travel (4 hours driving on my part).

To see my other photo tours completed thus far from this trip:

Sanctuary, CO: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48714.0.html
Prairie Club (Dunes), NE: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48734.0.html
Awarii Dunes, NE: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48784.0.html
Wild Horse, NE: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48807.0.html
Golf Club at Bear Dance, CO: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48903.0.html
Coeur D'Alene Resort, ID: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48906.0.html


What I liked:

1) Greens - Interesting shaping and contouring.  None are too flat and none too extreme.

2) Half-shot penalties.  Lost balls will be rare at WV.  If you want to make birdies you must challenge the hazards.  But, being out of place off the tee still has the possibility of making par.  The greens have several large run-offs.  Missing the green will mean a difficult but interesting up-and-down opportunity where a great shot can save a par, but one should not make worse than bogey.  I can see many bogey golfers having some of their best rounds at WV, but scratch golfers not even coming close to par.

3) Undulations in chipping areas - No doubt shots from a chipping area confound many golfers.  But most eventually learn that putter is the play.  BUT, there are humps and bumps in the run-offs that make these somewhat simple putts much more interesting.

4) Sideboards and flattened side boards - There are plenty of sideboards and backboards at WV that give the creative golfer more than option for a given shot.  One thing I really liked was that the sideboards got very flat just off the green.  This means you can't just aim somewhere between the pin and the sideboard and be sure of the kick down to the hole.  Furthermore, shots aimed at the pin and hit slightly off-line will not garner the advantage of the sideboard.  The player must choose - aim at the hole or aim at the sideboard.

5) Conditioning - really F&F.  Pretty much perfect, in my opinion.  Fairways were running, balls were bouncing, greens were fast but manageable.

6) Routing is constantly changing directions (nowhere more obviously than holes 1-2), meaning strong winds are kept in check


Things I didn't like:

1) The ponds on the three holes on the front nine felt contrived, out of place and of little interest.

2) The split fairway par-5 made little sense to me.

On to the tour...

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 1: Par 4, 405 Yards - Yardages will be from the 2nd from back Black tees

If you're like me, you will have a pretty good idea you are about to play a course you will really like, just by standing on the 1st tee.  Lots of width. Lots of fairway undulation.  And a couple of choices off the tee.

Most will be looking to avoid the bunker on the right and aim at the bunker on the left some 280 yards from the tee.




Tee shots that lay back short of the right bunker will face a 175 yard approach from a poor angle that is very awkward looking with the hill partially blocking the view of the green




Tee shots down the middle or left have a great look at the green and can take full advantage of the undulations short and left of the green that will funnel the ball down into the centre of the green.




Meanwhile, those that are able to carry the bunker on the right (about 260 yards) are rewarded with a very significant downslope that should bring the ball some 50-100 yards short of the green.




A look at the undulations short of the green (notice one cannot even see the bunker short of the green from the left):




From short and right




Even with the camera flattening the undulations, it is clear that the green has some pretty decent movement.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 2: Par 4, 360 Yards

A tee shot anywhere up the middle will serve just fine, but ideally one will make a choice off the tee based on the pin location (which is in full view).  Left pins should challenge the right bunkers and right pins should challenge the left tall grass.  The one really big no-no is a tee shot on the right side of the fairway to a right pin.




The approach from the right to a right pin is nasty.  The bunker blocks the full view of the green and the pin looks like it is floating on a tiny sliver of green.  And that's not the most difficult part.




The view from the left to a right pin is more manageable.




The worst part is the mounding short of the green.  Playing uphill, downwind and firm, one really want to land the ball short of the green, but two large undulations make that impossible.  Anything landing short will kick well right into a deep collection area.  Shots from the collection area are very difficult to get close, especially if you are playing diagonally back over the mounding.






From left of green




From behind

[Jeff Doerr]

Thanks Mark - I'll be following along closely. I have high regard for Wine Valley also and really hope Dan gets a lot more chances to build courses. WV and Bandon Crossings are really great GCA efforts.

I played WV with Dan, and he indicated a bunch of his inspiration came from playing the sandbelt courses on the Australian Tour many years ago.

[Kalen Braley]

That dip in the green really is quite significant, more than the picture alludes to.

The good part is, there is no trouble long, so erring on that side is much better than coming up short and rolling back down the bank.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 3: Par 5, 535 Yards

The aforementioned split-fairway par 5.  From the tee it is not clear that there is a split fairway as the top portion is the only side really in view.




From the start of the fairway the split-fairway is more apparent.




The right (upper) side of the split provides a large downslope that will allow some players to have a crack at the green in two.  But, the line to the green is cleverly guarded by two fairway bunkers.  There is a simple lay-up available with plenty of width to the right.




The left (lower) side of the split gives a shorter(?) line into the green but requires a second shot that MUST carry the water and deal with the aforementioned fairway bunkers.  I suppose if you really want to go for the green in two there is a clearer line from the left, but the layup is much more difficult, playing diagonally along the hazards.  I don't think too many players will use this side of the split on purpose.




The farther right the lay-up the more difficult the approach over a green that is slightly diagonal to the fairway.  More right means greater chance of finding the massive run-off right of the green.




A layup farther left leaves an easier approach, looking down the throat of the green, but the lay-up would have to contend with the bunkers/water to get to this position.







A look from down in the run-off - not a good spot to be.  Also notice the undulations in the slopes running up to the green.  These really make this shot tricky.  Often the smartest play is to play away from them and take your medicine as they have a knack for slowing down your ball and throwing it off-line such that the ball will return to the depths of the run-off.

[Alex Miller]

Mark,

Thanks for all these photo tours. They are some of the most in-depth views of any courses I've seen on here.

Wine Valley looks fantastic, so I just checked out their site. 70 bucks weekday in peak season. Wow! Also I LOVE that their junior rate extends to age 23, which I have never seen before but should absolutely be done elsewhere (I'm probably biased on that one).

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

Thanks for all these photo tours. They are some of the most in-depth views of any courses I've seen on here.

Wine Valley looks fantastic, so I just checked out their site. 70 bucks weekday in peak season. Wow! Also I LOVE that their junior rate extends to age 23, which I have never seen before but should absolutely be done elsewhere (I'm probably biased on that one).

Their off season rates are even better.  My friend and I went here in March and played 45 holes total for only $80 each...

That was beyond a sweet deal!

[Peter Ferlicca]

I played 36 holes one day here last summer in September.  I HAD A BLAST.  IMO, several holes gave me sort of a Ballyneal feel.  This course needs to get more recognition, give it time.  If this course was in LA or any place with a population it would be getting rave reviews.  This was one of the most fun golf courses I have played.  Some many golf shots to be played out there.  It would be in the top 4 in Washington with Chambers, Aldarra, and Tumble.  Lets put it this way, if this course was in the sandhills of colorado or nebraska, it would be able to hold its own.  You can definitely see some of Kye Goalbys work out there around the greens with all the sideboards.  Great hole after great hole.  I forgot to bring my camera so I am really looking forward to this tour to refresh my memory. 

Hole 7 is a marvelous par 5, and then a hole on the back somewhere between 12 to 15 is a great long dogleg right par 4 with a skyline green, another great hole. 

[Steve Kline]

Really enjoying this photo tour as Mark is providing great perspective on the playing strategies.

On the third I don't see why you need the bunkers on the left to protect the second shot. You already have the lake there to steer people toward the apparently safer play.

[Matthew Petersen]

Mark,

The course's website shows #3 as not so much a split fairway as a single fairway, with apparently two distinct levels, and two centerline bunkers.

I understand your comments as to not necessarily thinking that playing to one side or the other makes more sense from a strategic point of view, but to me it seems like one big fairway with center hazards is a nice option, especially on a hole where many will be swinging out of their shoes on the tee. It seems less confusing than an actual split fairway hole where you so often end up wondering why they even bothered to build the other fairway.

Your thoughts? How wide is the "upper" portion of the fairway? Would it be a fair driving challenge if the upper portion was the only fairway?

[Jim Johnson]

Mark, thanks for posting all of these photo tours. Great stuff.

What was your overall view of Wine Valley? My wife and I are planning on a quick 5-day trip through Washington next month, hooking up with Richard Choi at Chambers Bay, and then I was thinking perhaps we should swing east to Walla Walla and check out WV.

Did you hit the Wilderness Club (Eureka, Montana) in your travels? Curious about that one too.

Jim

[Anthony Gray]

  Mark,

  Well written. I've played many of the greast coursesand Wine Valley is in my top 10 because of its playability. The best bunkerd course I can think of. This course should get more props on this site and nationally. Thanks for the work you put into this thread.

  Anthony

[Mark Saltzman]

Really enjoying this photo tour as Mark is providing great perspective on the playing strategies.

On the third I don't see why you need the bunkers on the left to protect the second shot. You already have the lake there to steer people toward the apparently safer play.

Steve,

I wondered about those bunkers too.  Perhaps they are further enforcement that the player should be playing his tee shot on the right side of the fairway?  From the left, the player that wants to lay-up will have to carry both the lake and the bunkers.  From the right, I really doubt a player will challenge the water for a better angle into the green.  Most that do, will do so by accident and these bunkers would save them from a ball in the water.  Just a thought.


Matthew,

You are correct the fairway on three is really a single fairway with two centerline bunkers, but the right and left are separated by quite a bit of elevation so to me it played like a split fairway.  

The upper portion is very wide.  At many courses it would be 10s of yards wider than the widest fairway.  Like many split fairways, this hole left me wondering what the lower portion of the fairway is for.  Though as I think more about it, the most likely way to hit the green in two would have to be from the left.  The throat of the green is open from the left, though the player must carry the lake.  From the right, the aforementioned bunkers + the undulations short/right of the green mean it is extremely difficult to hit the green in two.  Nonetheless, given the risk/reward for taking on the green in two from the left vs. knocking it just short of the green in two from the right, I seriously doubt you would ever see a good player take the left route on purpose.


Jim,

Overall I thought Wine Valley was fantastic.  I had very high expectations when I played WV, but they were met and exceeded easily.  The course played firmer than any other course on my trip, which included Sand Hills, Rock Creek and Ballyneal.  I can tell it's about a 5 hour drive from Chambers to WV through a mix of pretty and boring terrain.  

I didn't get to the Wilderness Club.  I did really enjoy Palouse Ridge, though, which is only a couple hours from WV.  Hope that helps.


Peter,

I obviously haven't seen everything in the state, but from what I saw I would rank the courses as follows:

1) Chambers Bay
2) Wine Valley
3) Alderra
4) Tumble Creek
5) Palouse
6) Sahalee

[Sean Leary]

Peter,

I obviously haven't seen everything in the state, but from what I saw I would rank the courses as follows:

1) Chambers Bay
2) Wine Valley
3) Alderra
4) Tumble Creek
5) Palouse
6) Sahalee

You didn't miss much if these were the 6 that you played. It the same order as I would have them as well, although I haven't played Wine Valley yet.

[Garland Bayley]

Can't believe this thread was pushed off the first page. Mark must be busy recuperating from his trip.

In my two plays at Wine Valley, I first went left of the bunker on 3. Found that was not a good idea, so went right the second time to earn a win on the hole from Kalen. With knowledge of the course, I assume you can think the bunker as guarding the inside of the proper line. The rest of the fairway left of the bunker is to allow inconsistent lefties to slice left with recovery still available.

[Matthew Petersen]

Mark,

Thanks for the perspective. It can be tough to get a sense of the full scale just via a photo tour so I was really wondering how big that right side of the fairway is.

[Ronald Montesano]

A) Does the fairway left on #3 take you into the water, or is it a safe landing? Not talking about a beastly, running hook, but a normally delivered tee ball;

B) Mark snuck into and out of western New York without my chancing to meet for a swing or a drink; won't happen again!

C) I'm not averse to the double warning hazard (the bunkers and the lake). Tilly did it on #8 at Bethpage Red (trees followed by bunker) so it has its place for those who don't listen well the first time.

[Michael Dugger]

A) Does the fairway left on #3 take you into the water, or is it a safe landing? Not talking about a beastly, running hook, but a normally delivered tee ball?

It's pretty much out of reach.

I too don't think there is enough motivation for going left, all things considered.

Perhaps if the tee box was moved up a little and more to the left, giving a shorter route to the left side of the split, there would be more intrigue in taking that chance.

As it is now, I just don't see any advantage in going over there.

[Kalen Braley]

The more I think about it, the more I agree with Mark.  There really is no real reason to go left over there on purpose because whether you are going for the green or just laying up, it makes either one of those shots more difficult.  That being said, there is plenty of room out to the right as well and certainly in every round I've played there, I've always aimed to the right of the bunkers.

The only thing I can think of is, its a safe haven for a slicing leftie or a rightie who overcooks a draw and hooks it over there.

I wish we had an aerial of the hole, but the course is still too new and Bing and Google aren't updated yet.

[Pete_Pittock]

Counterpoint.
First, I can't reach the green in two.
But I go left of the bunker because I can't carry the ball past the kickplate right of the central bunker. It adds about 30 yards to my drive. By driving to the left and hitting the second ball right I counterbalance the right to left slope of the fairway, taking the water out of play. A medium drive to the right leaves a shot that can bound left and run into the lake.

[Kalen Braley]

Counterpoint.
First, I can't reach the green in two.
But I go left of the bunker because I can't carry the ball past the kickplate right of the central bunker. It adds about 30 yards to my drive. By driving to the left and hitting the second ball right I counterbalance the right to left slope of the fairway, taking the water out of play. A medium drive to the right leaves a shot that can bound left and run into the lake.

Pete,

I'm a little confused.  It sounds like you would rather play over the water with your layup shot instead of playing away from it on all 3 shots?  There is a ton of room to the right, even on the layup shot from a drive hit to the right and one doesn't need to go anywhere near the water unless the pin is on the left of the green.

[Pete_Pittock]

Counterpoint.
First, I can't reach the green in two.
But I go left of the bunker because I can't carry the ball past the kickplate right of the central bunker. It adds about 30 yards to my drive. By driving to the left and hitting the second ball right I counterbalance the right to left slope of the fairway, taking the water out of play. A medium drive to the right leaves a shot that can bound left and run into the lake.

Pete,

I'm a little confused.  It sounds like you would rather play over the water with your layup shot instead of playing away from it on all 3 shots?  There is a ton of room to the right, even on the layup shot from a drive hit to the right and one doesn't need to go anywhere near the water unless the pin is on the left of the green.

Kalen,
Yes, you are confused. My ball never goes over water or anywhere near it. My first shot is left of the central bunker and gains about 30 yds from hitting a speed slot. My second is aimed at the right edge of the fairway and never challenges the water. I am usually left with a wedge or 9 iron in the right 1/3 of the fairway.
Imagine a two yacht race with me twice tacking away from trouble and approaching the final buoy from downwind. The worst place off the tee is short right, the second worst is in the central bunker. I avoid them, you don't. The worst place for the 2nd shot is in the water. Coming from the right the lake is more in play because of the cant of the fairway. You have that trouble, I don't.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 4: Par 4, 350 Yards

You really want to be right of the centerline bunker off the tee.  At WV, the ability to land the ball short is important given the firm conditions and being forced to carry the bunker from the left is bad news.






Interestingly, there is a not so insignificant downslope on the left side of the fairway into the fairway bunkers.  Shots that are intended to be played short of this bunker but are pulled (and hit just a bit longer) will certainly be penalized.




One of the most undulating greens on the course with large slopes/kickers to the right of the green.




BUT, anyone getting just a bit too aggressive and going long is pretty much dead...

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 5: Par 4, 460 Yards

A long par 4 that plays nowhere near its yardage.  Downhill and downwind, this is really no more than driver and a mid or short iron.  The ideal angle is from the left, which requires the player to challenge the 'sand river.'  This was one of my favorite holes at WV.




But, the fairway has a very significant slope from right to left.  A player able to sling a draw off the slope can watch his ball roll forever, while a player bailing out right can watch his cut kick back toward the centre.  The slope is not severe enough, however, to get the ball all the way to the left side of the fairway for the best angle into the green.




A really, really good approach.  Any shot hit at the right 5 feet of the green will kick into the sand river... 




There is a massive kicker short/left of the green that will feed the ball all the way to the centre of the green... 





But, the kicker ends and gives way to another deep run-off. I loved this feature.  Shots played at the green but pulled will carry the kicker and find the collection area.  Only shots that intentionally use the slope will get its benefit.




A look from behind shows a few significant humps in the green.  Lots of movement for a long par 4.  If this hole played into the wind it could be a beast.

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