Sandwich vs. Deal

[Noel Freeman]

Tuco,

1. My name's Scott, not Sean.

2. I was advocating driving left on the 2nd at sandwich, not the 2nd at Deal.

I know Number 1 mate.. sorry, I was going back and forth with Mr. Arble and screwed that one up leaving in Sean so my apologies.

As per number 2, that explains it.. sorry for the confusion..

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike poses a sensible and logical approach;

Here you would compare RSG 1 with RCP 1, RSG 2 with RCP 2, RSG 3 with RCP 14, RSG 4 with RCP 12, RSG 5 with RCP 7, RSG 6 with RCP 4, RSG 7 with RCP 5, RSG 8 with RCP 11, RSG 9 with RCP 9, RSG 10 with RCP 10, RSG 12 with RCP 6, RSG 13 with RCP 13,  RSG 14 with RCP 16, RSG 15 with RCP 15, RSG 16 with RCP 8, RSG 17 with RCP 17 and RSG 18 with RCP 18. The tie break hole if required is the non match of RSG11 with RCP 3.

I'd have 2 up Sandwich with Deal winning the tie break but I'm a homer!! 1up, level, 1 down, level, level, level, 1 down, level, 1 up, level, 1 down, level, 1 down, 1 down, level, 1 up, 2 up.

This is all down to preference not architectural merit!!

[JNC Lyon]

Okay, so as I have let this thread meander while playing lots of golf in Philly, it seems everyone has determined that Deal wins the 3rd, while Sandwich wins the 4th and 5th.  I would agree with all of that.  Deal's 3rd is a very cool par five to a fantastic punchbowl green.  While Deal's 4th is a very clever par three, Sandwich's 4th is a hole that hearkens back to the club's original reliance on blind shots over dunes and giant cross hazards.  Sandwich's 4th also features one of the wildest greens on either course that is also wonderfully strategic.  Deal's 5th is a straightforward par five over solid terrain, while I love the quirky Alps feature at Sandwich's 5th.

SANDWICH 1UP

HOLE NUMBER 6:

Sandwich: We know come to the par three that was originally known as the Maiden.  The hole first played from the middle of the current 5th fairway, over a giant dune to a blind greensite.  Since a routing restructuring, presumably to accommodate championship play, the Maiden is lost.  However, the current par three is very good in its own right.  This is my favorite of the four par threes: a shorter iron played through the dunes to a long, double plateau green situation between two of the course's largest dunes.  The hole is very cozy, the green quite elastic, and the bunkers and terrain around the green create all sorts of recovery options.  The 6th at Sandwich is one of the most underrated holes on the golf course.

Deal: We now come to the hole that Sandwich lacks: a truly great short par four.  Deal's 6th, stretching 320 from the tips, does not rely on water, bunkers, or out of bounds for challenge.  The hole simply makes use of the best terrain on the golf course.  The short four doglegs right around a giant dune.  From the tee, the golfer has two options: drive left into the rippling fairway, or fire a driver over the dune and towards the flag fluttering alongside the seawall.  Of course, the second shot is even more compelling: a short approach to a diabolical shelf green.  The green appears to have been created by leveling off a dune, and it falls off dramatically on three sides.  Of course, it has all short grass around the green, giving the player a variety of options for approach--and tremendously difficult recovery shots after a miss.  My favorite hole at Deal.

[JNC Lyon]

Mike Malone,

Before doing the matchplay setup, I was thinking about comparing holes on the basis of length and par.  I think it is easier to compare these holes as sets (i.e. Sandwich's long par fours vs. Deal's long par fours), than it is to compare these holes on an individual basis.  We still have to monkey around with hole pairings and inequalities in par (for example, Deal has three par threes and three par fives, while Sandwich has four and two).  Furthermore, I think it is just more exciting to do a straight-up hole by hole match.  After all, the sequence in which holes are presented matters just as much as the individual holes that are there.

[JNC Lyon]

Where did all the Dealies go? I hate to call a winner on a hole without some spirited debate.

[Scott Warren]

John,

You posted you comments on the 6th holes at 2.23pm BST and it's now 4.20am BST - not a huge window!

As with the 4th holes - a good hole cannot compete with an all-world one - except this time the roles are reversed.

The 6th at Deal may be the best sub-300m hole I have ever played. It and 10 at Riv would be neck and neck.

The brilliant thing about 6 at Deal is how enormously the best place to be off the tee varies with pin positions and wind direction, and all are relly fun ways to play the hole.

Easterly
Front pin - Drive it as far left as possible to leave a fullish wedge that you can play for the middle of the green - if you're a touch short you'll be near the hole anmd if not you're safe. No prizes for going after the pin on your approach and unless you have immense chip and run precision, a tiddler second from the bottom of the dune that the green's on top of is far more difficult than a fullish shot into the wind.

Back pin - If you hit a cut, you can aim at the green and go for it, because the wind will hold the ball online and wherever you are you have the insurance policy provided by the top of the seawall, should you catch the chip a little hot. If you draw the ball, you don't want to be aiming over the beach in case it doesn't blow back, so a drive in that little vally fronting the green is perfect.

Southerly
Front pin - It's go time, but if you miss you really have to be willing to give away the pin on your second and be willing to accept a 10-20ft birdie putt.

Back pin - Probably the easiest combination. Laying one out to the left is a fool's errand because then you have a full wedge in a crosswind to a tough target. Go for the green, or if you can't you really want to use the contours to cut a drive that will run down around the front of the green (still somewhat true of a front pin, it's just a tougher shot from there to a front pin, and it will vary by golfer whether a crosswind wedge or a delicate chip and run is preferable).

Westerly
Front pin - I like to go at the green here because there's no future in leaving yourself any kind of wedge approach downwind with the greens as firm as they tend to be - you will be playing your third from the back of the green anyway, so if you have a lash at the green and have a tough lie or unhelpful contours between you and the hole for your second, you can always bail out and play up to the back of the green anyway.

Back pin - Maybe the pin where the option is most open to preference. The downwind wedge to the back of the green isn't too tough and the chip from around the green to that spot is also one of the easier recoveries.

Northerly
Front pin - Maybe the toughest wind - I like to play my second in this scenario from between the tee and green, over the tallest dune, but into the wind it's tough to get there and if you hit and hope form a good lie in the rough you can get some horrific lies. I'd be aiming to hit a low drive that will run out to a comfortable chip and run distance, and from there you just want to run one up to the middle of the green.

Back pin - Probably much the same as to a front pin - the rough gets more uneven close to the sea wall (ie. on line between the tee and a back pin) so you don't want to be over there, but you don't want that crosswind wedge shot mentioned earlier.

Of course as the winds shift slightly off these four main axes the exact lay-up spot out to the left (when a lay-up or lay-out is the right play) cvaries and might call for an iron, hybrid, fairway wood or driver.

It's an endlessly fascinating hole and one that despite its humble length I only birdied once in 30-odd plays!

I have the match so far:

1 Deal
2 Sand
3 Deal
4 Sand
5 Sand
6 Deal.

MATCH ALL SQUARE AFTER 6.

[Sean_A]

Yes, Deal's 6th for sure.  I am gonna pick a crafty short 4 over a par 3 all day long.  I really like the element of luck involved off the tee - the hole position isn't known so its pot luck.  The approach leaves all sorts of options regardless of where the flag is.  For me, Sandwich is 1 up.

Ciao

[JNC Lyon]

Yeah, I have to take Deal's 6th as well.  It is one of my favorite holes of all time.

ALL SQUARE

HOLE NUMBER 7:

Sandwich: Now we are playing in the heart of Deal's dunesland, making each golf shot a thrill for the next few holes.  The tee shot on the 7th plays over a great rise, which seems to be a small manmade cut in the dunes.  After going up and over, the 7th swings down and around to the left into what might be the flattest fairway on the course.  However, a look back up the hole shows that the fairway is routed beautifully up a narrow valley.  Of course, hugging the left side of the dune gives the best angle into the green, which is bunkered short right and slopes hard from right to left.  A very clever par five.

Deal: The 7th at the Cinque Ports is one of the courses most underrated holes.  Generally, the best play is toward the bunkers down the right side of the fairway, which has become even more of a gamble from the new sea wall tee.  From there, the golfer gets the angle around the short left greenside bunker.  However, if the pin is towards the right, the golfer may hug the left hand bunkers for the best results.  The green itself is very neat, a rolling affair that stands out as the golfer moves into flatter terrain.

[Sean_A]

I don't think much of Sandwich's 7th.  A great driving hole, but nothing much happening after that. 

Deal's isn't stellar, but it wins the battle of also rans. 

ALL SQUARE

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

I think being a great driving hole is pretty good and it is a thrilling drive.  Admittedly the approach and green don't live up to the drive.  7 at Deal is a decent hole but quite a straightforward drive.  Pretty good green, though.  A half in my book.

[Bill_McBride]

I think being a great driving hole is pretty good and it is a thrilling drive.  Admittedly the approach and green don't live up to the drive.  7 at Deal is a decent hole but quite a straightforward drive.  Pretty good green, though.  A half in my book.

I suspect the drive from the seawall tee is a lot more interesting!  It would certainly bring the left side bunkers into play.

[JNC Lyon]

Deal and Sandwich halve the 7th.  Personally, I'd defer to Sandwich's par 5, but I'm trying to take the gallery response into consideration here.

ALL SQUARE

HOLE NUMBER 8:

Sandwich:  One of the newer holes on the golf course, but also one of the better ones.  After a mundane tee shot, the second shot plunges over a hillock-laden dune to a brilliant valley greensite.  The second shot is definitely intimidating, but there is plenty of room around the green.  The green itself is divided into a few sections, creating some interesting pins that golfers can only get to after multiple plays.  Definitely one of my favorite holes on the course, and the start of a great three-hole stretch.

Deal:  A short par three ringed with bunkers, the 8th seems to get a lot of criticism here.  For my money, this is a very cool little par three, and it should be pretty simple to get a three here.  Sure, there are several bunkers around the green.  But the green itself is fairly large, and there is a sizable bailout long and left, towards the 9th tee.  Miss it correctly, and a three is attainable here.  Miss it the wrong way, and you will be happy with a four.  Isn't that how a good short par three is done?

[Sean_A]

As was the case with Deal's 3rd, this is a knock down no brainer.  Deal's 8th is a seriously flawed hole due to the poor bunker scheme. 

SANDWICH 1 UP

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

8 RSG is the stroke 1 hole and usually playing smack into the prevailling wind, the lack of definition makes the drive difficult and unless you are in good position the second shot is extremely difficult to a tight target, par is always a great number.

8 RCP used to be played from the center and left tee straight down the line of the green, it is the only hole at RCP where you have to carry the ball over bunkers to the green. From the new tee anything with left spin is likely to spin off into one of two left greenside bunkers. The ideal shot is a mid to short iron hit with cut to hold into the green. The green is 39 yards long plus 4 or 5 from the front bunker so there is plenty of room to stop the ball.

8 RSG wins but I'm interested to know what is "seriously flawed" about the bunker plan?

[JNC Lyon]

What's wrong with the bunker scheme on 8?

[Mark Bourgeois]

On the club website, this is the schematic of 8 green:


The Google aerial seems to show fewer bunkers but nevertheless, similar to the graphic, they are aligned in a chevron and the hole faces the Channel.

The pic on the club website seems to show a fallaway green. The pro's tip says you need a "high stopping shot" in the prevailing wind, which, if off the Channel, would seem to make sense given the bunker chevron plus the fallaway (if it indeed is).

Lord, that hole looks impossible today -- can't imagine 100 years ago!

[JNC Lyon]

RMN:

If the wind is blowing off the Channel in any way, the 8th gets fairly easy.  Since the hole is playing into the wind, the golfer will have no problem holding the ball on the green.  Moreover, the green slopes from back-to-front, meaning a well-struck shot will stay on the green in all but the strongest of tail-winds.  Then again, there is plenty of room long-left--check it out on Google Maps.  Remember, the bailout around the green does not have be short and straight.  As long as the hole gives you some room to miss (this one does), it is eminently fair.

Far from impossible, the 8th is one of the easiest pars on the course.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Hoe-don-dere padnah, if it's one of the easiest pars then why does every minus golfer need at least a stroke to match a zero?

[JNC Lyon]

That's the 8th at Sandwich, not the 8th at Deal.  8 at Deal is the 16th stroke hole.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Whoops, there's a little RMN-style trickeration. Clearly my error was forgetting to erase the prior 18-minutes' worth of posts.

Carry on.

[Mark Chaplin]

The two back right bunkers were filled in about 5 years ago.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Strictly from the Google aerial, it looks also as though the club also eliminated the right-most bunker in that right-side bunker troika.

Mark, why were they eliminated? By the way, you're being a good sport. You know I'm just taking the piss. Except regarding the bunker elimination; I really am interested in the answer.

[Sean_A]

JNC & Chappers

#1: Anytime it is felt the number of bunkers used at #8 are required to protect par than something is wrong with the design.

#2: I disagree that there is enough space to play the hole when there is a decent tailwind. I have said before that a perfectly well struck shot for my ability level has ended up in the rear of the green with a stoney lie. 

#3: I have watched balls hop the right bunkers and end up on the green.  While that sort of thing is fun, it doesn't inidicate good bunkering.

IMO the hole needs a radical rethinking of the bunker sceme if it is ever to be considered a good hole.

Ciao   

[JNC Lyon]

Sean,

I don't think anyone feels 8 needs a certain number of bunkers to protect par.  They removed two of them very recently.  A short par three to a large green in a sea of bunkers?  That's a pretty standard short three design, and it's a pretty effective one.  Hell, the 4th hole has zero bunkers, and you think it's too penal.  How many bunkers is a good number?

I think the 8th at Deal is a very cool par three, with lots of flexibility considering the variety of tees that lend all sorts of angles and distances.  The approach at 8 at RSG is great, but the drive is pretty bland.  Partially out of spite, I'll call it a halve.

ALL SQUARE

HOLE NUMBER 9:

Deal:  The weakest hole at Deal, which is pretty amazing considering this isn't a terrible golf hole.  The seawall tee makes this a beast at 445, and it makes hugging the left hand fairway bunkers very important off the tee.  The bunkering on the second shot is deficient, and it makes challenging the left-hand fairway bunkers from the shorter tees pointless.  However, the bunkers short left of the green make some sense because they are cut into a natural ridge, despite their strategic nihilism.  The green is a neat, low-profile affair, but the hole isn't one of the stronger ones on the course.

Sandwich.  My favorite hole at Sandwich!  The hole is one of the shorter par fours out there, and it doglegs slightly to the right.  The golfer has to challenge the right hand fairway bunkers to get the best look in the green, but the fairway slopes from right to left.  This makes it very difficult to attain an ideal angle for the second shot.  In short, the strategy off the tee here is timeless.  The green complex is also first rate, a modified halfpipe with all sorts of spines and ridges working from the high sides of the green.  Recovery shots here are a blast.  Just an all-around great par four.

[Mark Chaplin]

Looking forward to Sean's assessment of the appailing bunkering on 9 RSG after Darren Clark managed to jump the bunkers!!