Sandwich vs. Deal

[Scott Warren]

I'm sure it's a hell of an occasion, Noel, but I'd be curious how many of Great Britain's top 50 amateurs take part in the Hewitt each year?

You were responding to Tiger B's assertion that Deal wasn't a "championship" venue. In what way does the Hewitt add to an argument refuting that? The Hewitt is a great event, but as far as it being a "championship"? I don't see it.

[Noel Freeman]

I'm sure it's a hell of an occasion, Noel, but I'd be curious how many of Great Britain's top 50 amateurs take part in the Hewitt each year?

You were responding to Tiger B's assertion that Deal wasn't a "championship" venue. In what way does the Hewitt add to an argument refuting that? The Hewitt is a great event, but as far as it being a "championship"? I don't see it.

Just was stating it is a spiritual home for competitive golf and one with a history the R&A should love--assuming many R&A members are public school grads.  Deal doesnt need to refute its championship bones, 4 Opens awarded, two lost to high tides, the Brabazon, Amateurs (1923,82,2012) etc, it has the stock already as you well know.  I'm hoping it photographs well this tuesday as I want to show seawall pix.

I realize my homer-ism is getting out of hand, so I'm not going to retort anymore.  I am fond of Tiger B. but Deal is most definitely a championship venue.  In all reality, what would work for me is a Walker Cup and getting to walk the fairways with these guys although I must admit, I'd love to see the Senior Open with Watson and Norman out there too.  But I do say this, if Troon or Turnberry are worthy venues for the Open Championship, why not Deal?

[Scott Warren]

Noel: I agree with you that Tiger is mistaken and Deal is every bit championship-worthy, I guess I just don't see the Hewitt as part of the case behind that.

In any case, returning to the topic at hand, Chappers alleged that the 2nd at Sandwich is similarly flawed as the 9th at Deal.

I disagree that that's the case.

On the 2nd at Sandwich, as I see it, you are rewarded for huging or flying the LHS fairway bunker, as an approach from the left doesn't have to contend with the short bunker that messes with your depth perception from the right. Not to mentioned the swale short right that gobbles up anything under-weighted from that side and feeds the ball 30 yards away.

From the left you have to go over the ridge, but the land short is far more friendly and your depth-perception isn't messed with as it is on the right.

Sure, the view from the two tees is similar and the holes shape the same way, but the crucial difference is that on 2 at Sandwich you're rewarded for taking on the drive bunker and on 9 at Deal you aren't.

I may be wrong. What say others?

Here's an aerial of the 2nd at Sandwich:



And a look up the fairway from the point of view of someone who has bailed out to the right off the tee:

[Bill_McBride]

Just was stating it is a spiritual home for competitive golf and one with a history the R&A should love--assuming many R&A members are public school grads.  Deal doesnt need to refute its championship bones, 4 Opens awarded, two lost to high tides, the Brabazon, Amateurs (1923,82,2012) etc, it has the stock already as you well know.  I'm hoping it photographs well this tuesday as I want to show seawall pix.

I realize my homer-ism is getting out of hand, so I'm not going to retort anymore.  I am fond of Tiger B. but Deal is most definitely a championship venue.  In all reality, what would work for me is a Walker Cup and getting to walk the fairways with these guys although I must admit, I'd love to see the Senior Open with Watson and Norman out there too.  But I do say this, if Troon or Turnberry are worthy venues for the Open Championship, why not Deal?

One of my Pensacola club mates played in the British Senior Amateur at Deal a few years ago and loved it.  Said the weather was miserable but course wonderful.

I don't think anyone has said Deal isn't top shelf, it's as usual a matter of relatives and Ginger vs Mary Ann, chocolate vs vanilla.   I for one would be quite happy going back and forth.  Not sure what it would take to get the R & A back for the Open.   Or if you would want it back. 

[JNC Lyon]

Some statements before I carry on with the thread:

1) Deal is walkable from the train station, but so is Sandwich.  FACT: I walked from Sandwich Station to the golf course, and back. TWICE.

2) I'm hardly trying to promote Deal with this thread.  I am just comparing two courses that I played and I love that share a coastline.

3) What the hell is the Hewlett-Packard-Halford-Whatever?

[Scott Warren]

John:

The Halford Hewitt is an annual week-long matchplay knockout contested by the old boys of the toff schools from around England.

Teams of 7 (or thereabouts) go head to head with the school that wins the most matches advancing to the next round.

There are some jackets there that make RCP's look positively sedate!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mark point well made. Noel, I did not follow TOC logic. Deal is a great members course, a great course for all levels of golfers, well located and fun. I do not find a case  to change which course is the open championship course and which ones are for qualifiers. That too is a good club to be in. I do not see it as a better course either. I play in a few good neighborhoods which i do not play at the better course but do play at a great course in both cases. The same is true for Deal.  I do not think mpcc should be compared to pebble beach as a better championship course.  Nor do I think it is a better course. However i think olympic lake is a better championship course than sfgc. But I feel sfgc is the better course.

[JNC Lyon]

NOW: Back to the action (Big E, parody my posts as much as want).

Sandwich's 2nd is a solid par four.  It really is.  However, Deal's 2nd hole is tremendous.  The fairway contours are subtle and create timeless options--meaning a player cannot lock down one specific way to play hole after 2 or 3 tries.  The green complex is great, and I'm definitely a sucker for front-to-back slopes in greens  Therefore, Deal wins the hole to square the match.

ALL SQUARE

HOLE NUMBER THREE

Sandwich: we come to the first of Sandwich's par threes.  This is a 210-yard, bunkerless affair.  The green is cut into a dune, and it is the player's introduction into the massive dunescape that defines Sandwich's outward nine.  The par three is a decent enough hole, with a slippery two-tiered green that forces players to keep the ball below the hole.  Yet the hole remains a one-dimensional difficult par four, and it is even more painful considering the hole it replaced: Sandwich's legendary Sahara hole.  A difficult, bland, and highly visible long par three replaces a quirky, blind, strategic, beloved short par four? Ouch.

Deal: while the first two holes are a solid start, the 3rd is one of Deal's very first golf holes.  Whether you play it as a five or a four, Deal's 3rd is a classic, traveling over rippling terrain that yields all sorts of wild stances, before culminating in a brilliant punchbowl green.  The green complex is the thriller here, encouraging the golfer to hit every type of shot imaginable to combat the often dramatic, but sometimes subtle, contours.  3 is a very reasonable proposition here, but so is a 7, which is, of course, ideal.  And there is no better feeling than firing a shot into a punchbowl and scrambling over the brow of a hill to find it nestled near the flag.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I need to play Sandwich 2 more.  I'm left feeling it all adds up to less then and sum of it's admittedly very interesting parts.


The third at RSG is a bit of a brute but the third at Deal is an all world charmer.  First of the slam dunk decisions.

[Sean_A]

For me, the match is back to all square.  Deal's third easily beats down a rather boring 3rd at Sandwich. 

Now it will get interesting to match up #4s.  I already know the Dealies will go with their 4th, but in truth Deal goes one down at this point and if judged by any objective means should slip to 2 down after 5.


Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean:

I already know the Dealies will go with their 4th, but in truth Deal goes one down at this point and if judged by any objective means should slip to 2 down after 5.

"Truth"? "Objective"?

C'mon mate, don't make me laugh.

Also, you're wrong - at least this Deal homer will vote for Sandwich's 4th over the 4th at my course.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

I already know the Dealies will go with their 4th, but in truth Deal goes one down at this point and if judged by any objective means should slip to 2 down after 5.

"Truth"? "Objective"?

C'mon mate, don't make me laugh.

Also, you're wrong - at least this Deal homer will vote for Sandwich's 4th over the 4th at my course.

Scott

Don't lay that on me, you were born laughing. 

Tiger

The comparison of Deal, Rye and Sandwich will be never ending.  All are more or less in the same class although I can understand there being strong preferences due the differing natures of each course.  I have a strong preference for Rye over either Deal or Sandwich, but concede that Sandwich is a better course.  What Tuco fails to grasp is finishing third (which Deal does for me in terms of quality and preference) in this select group is no great shame.  Rather, it highlights the top notch quality of all three.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

You're right, I was born laughing and have tried to keep it that way for the subsequent 28 years.

You're also right that Rye, Deal and Sandwich are about as good as one another, but have quite different qualities and weaknesses.

The routings vary greatly; Rye has its 3s, Deal has its shorter fours and fives and Sandwich has a great set of longer par fours that rule the roost; Deal's land makes for great greens, Rye's bunkering is brilliant and Sandwich has both great natural sites and brilliantly bunkered sites in different areas... I could go on, but you get the point.

[Michael Whitaker]

I'm enjoying this, boys! I feel like I'm sitting in the bar at Deal with you right now!

JNC Lyon - You being able to walk from the Deal station does not prove it is a good idea for the common man. You walked Dismal River, for God's sake!!! I'll admit the Deal walk is easier, but no sane person would walk DR with the lack of walking paths you were presented. I can no longer trust you for "walkability" advice for anyone over 25!

[JNC Lyon]

Mike,

The routing really comes together when you walk Dismal River.  Just slap on some bug spray and you are good to go!  Similarly, the adventure really comes together when walking to Deal and Sandwich from their respective train stations.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sean I could not agree with you more. I too like Rye the best for me but not for all the other points being made on here. This is a great group of courses. I feel that way in Pebble Beach, in SF, on Long Island, in several areas of Scotland, The Liverpool area and the donut around London. SE England is another area with a number of very good courses near each other.

[Noel Freeman]

Sean- You really make me want to reach for the Ding Dongs when I read your posts. That or a Yodel!

For me, Rye suffers in that 1-3 are just indifferent golf, not poor golf, just indifferent.  10-11 and 17 are the same.  That is 6 holes that are just for me, average.  What can you critique at Deal, 9 and 11?  9 and 11 are much better holes than 10-11 at Rye.

As per Deal vs. Sandwich-- I am so far:

1- Deal- You can keep the Kitchen hole at RSG.  The green at Deal is one of the best in links golf in my opinion.
2- Sandwich-- and by the way Scott Warren, I always try to drive down the right side into that green (Deal No. 2).  I feel it gives me a better approach to far right pins.  Or you can bump in from the left and let it release.. If I go left I always miss left on that green or long.. Just my experience..
3- Deal- 1up
4- Sandwich A/S
5- Sandwich 1up

[Mark Pearce]

For me, Rye suffers in that 1-3 are just not indifferent golf, not poor golf, just indifferent.  10-11 and 17 are the same.  That is 6 holes that are just for me, average.  What can you critique at Deal, 9 and 11?  9 and 11 are much better holes than 10-11 at Rye.

Now that's spot on.  For me both RSG and Deal are a notch above Rye.

As to scoring this contest (and I'm far less familiar with RSG than Deal), I have RSG 1 up after 5 but would reverse the results on the 1st and 2nd!  Actually, I might make the 1st a half, making the score all square.

[Sean_A]

Tuco

Jeepers, Rye's #2 indifferent?  You need to put on your glasses next time around.  Deal doesn't have a par 3 any better than Rye's 2nd.  I won't go any further with your comments because we obviously are looking for different things in architecture. 

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Tuco

Jeepers, Rye's #2 indifferent?  You need to put on your glasses next time around.  Deal doesn't have a par 3 any better than Rye's 2nd.  I won't go any further with your comments because we obviously are looking for different things in architecture. 

Ciao

Sean, Tuco freely admits he's a homer.   

I had heard about those little "eyebrow" wood thingeys at Rye but immediately confronted one on Rye's second, where I would surely have putted from short left if not blocked and forced to chip over the thing.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Now Rye's being dragged into this Star Chamber? Dealies should know better than to open a two-front war.

How can Rye 2 and 3 be called indifferent holes? The 3rd green makes lovely use of the ground with the help of an eyebrow. A bang-on match-play hole.

And if one is to engage in a hole v hole comparo, why pit Deal's 9th & 10th with Rye's 10th & 11th ??

Lastly, this schoolboy tourney: if the comparo is between toff tournaments, Google has the President's Putter at 11,200 results v Hewitt's 4,500.

Anyway, wouldn't Category A events like the Lytham Trophy be considered far more important than either? I would hazard Rye's Darwin Salver has a stronger field than the Hewitt.

[Mark Chaplin]

I'd second the slow start at Rye the (good) par 3 is sandwiched between two fairly ordinary holes but 4-7 are as good stretch of holes as you'll find anywhere. I'm no fan of 8-11 then the course is very sporty, 17 isn't great but 18 is one of the finest long par 4s I've ever played. Lunch is a world beater!

I'm comfortable with RStG +1 after 5. Me thinks that score will remain at the turn.

[Noel Freeman]

If I'm so off, why does Ran Morrissett in his review skip Rye's First 3 holes in his write up?  Has Ran gone mad?  Is his eye shot?  Well maybe b/c his putting stroke is average.

I never said the holes  at Rye's start were of poor quality although no one will contest 1 is a "good hole", it reminds me of the 1st at Pulborough, let me get it out of the way so to speak and move on.

Sean, I'd say 4 at Deal is better than 2 at Rye.  I'll take 14 over 17 too.. Now the others, I will say are fantastic of course.  I'm a huge fan of Rye, but there are indifferent shots followed by indifferent shots in areas, you don't have that at Deal and Sandwich.

I give my opinions without impunity and my bias is straightforward.  Deal, Rye, Sandwich, is sort of like Shinnecock, NGLA and Maidstone in debating.

And we haven't even thrown in Littlestone.  The 17th could easily challenge as one of the top par 3s among all of the SE England courses.

Marky B- you follow me around like the furries in a shakespearean drama.  This isnt a 2 front war, someone brought up Rye and it has been discussed. Ah to hell with all of you, I'm going to play Deal tommorrow so there..

[Scott Warren]

Tuco,

1. My name's Scott, not Sean.

2. I was advocating driving left on the 2nd at sandwich, not the 2nd at Deal.

[mike_malone]

 I'm not sure about comparing courses numerically. It might be better to compare 3's 4's 5's or the best 6/7 holes at each. I find an overall feeling that is affected by the play and the look is best for me. That dune ridge at Rye is just so awesome in its look and play that it really creates a high bar for the other two courses to jump.  The quirkiness at Deal just feels more "golfish" than Sandwich. Sandwich suffers because it is a championship course.