[JNC Lyon]

Watching the Open Championship has me recalling Deal and Sandwich more vividly than ever.  Sandwich looked handsome in the sun today, but, of course, I can only imagine what it would be like to be playing Deal in these conditions.

Therefore, I wanted to stage a debate about the two golf courses.  Most folks will say that Sandwich is the better golf course.  That may be true, but I happen to prefer Deal.  Of course, in typical GCA fashion, I'd like to do a hole-by-hole comparison of the two golf courses, with people debating the merits of each before I decide a winner.  At the end of 18 holes, we can crown a champion.

Let's get started:

HOLE NUMBER ONE:

SANDWICH--Par 4, 442 Yards

Pat Ward-Thomas picked this hole as the best starting hole in the world.  After playing it twice, I would not give it that designation, but it is certainly a hole of considerable merit.  The tee shot is wide open during everyday play, with the golfer simply needed to avoid the cow pasture well to the right.  The interesting part is the approach, which plays over three bunkers cut into a ridge directly in front of the green.  The green itself is very difficult, sloping away from the player and nearly impossible to hold with a tail-wind.  This hole is a bit funky, but it makes for a good start to a grand links.

DEAL--Par 4, 389 Yards

Considerably shorter than its counterpart on the Sandwich Bay, Deal's opener should be a breather.  Out of Bounds looms on the right, but the fairway itself is very wide and should be easy for a player to find once he steadies his nerves.  Although the tee shot is featureless, the approach is full of character.  Usually, the player will hit his approach with a wedge, crossing a narrow burn to a rolling green.  When I first played Deal, I was unimpressed with the first tee shot.  Once I arrived at the green, I knew the course would be something different.  The green was quite unlike anything I had seen before it: massive, low-profile, but filled with all sorts of contours that forced the player to leave the ball on the correct part of the green.  The first hole is far from the best at Deal, but it indicates what the golf course is all about: fun, and a great set of green complexes.

[Eric Strulowitz]

I have been fortunate to play both, and it is really hard to say which one is better.  In my opinion, the first hole at Deal is quite ordinary, and does not set the stage for the great holes to come.  And the finishing hole at Deal also a bit out of character from the previous holes on the way back, it is anticlimatic.  Sandwich starts and ends on a more exiciting note, the holes fit better with the surroundings and flow of the land.   For both courses, the holes in between are superb, I really can't say which one is better, that is tough!

I will say this, it is amazing what has been accomplished at Deal with such a narrow strip of land , compared to the abundance of land at Sandwich.   And I feel the green complexes at Deal to be superior, some of the most unique and sporty I have ever played. 

[Scott Warren]

John,

The first at Deal is much better than it sometimes gets credit for due to the wonderful green.

Downwind  you might only have 50 yards for your second (I've driven it into the burn a couple of times) so the internal rolls are crucial as you're no chance of birdie and a good chance of bogey if you place your approach in the wrong segment of the green. It's a wonderful, delicate shot and the burn is waiting if you chunk it.

Into the wind or in a cross breeze, which is far more common than downwind, you can have a 6i or more into the green and the trick becomes carrying the burn by as little as possible and/or trying to fly the ball into the upslope of one if the internal undulations to take some heat off it.

Then, regardless of the wind, if you miss the green there are some great recovery shots to be had, encountering those rolls from different angles.

I enjoyed Sandwich's opening hole, but not as much as Deal and I don't feel it offers the variety of Deal's opener.

A pic of Deal's green from short left:

[Dale Jackson]

Scott, I agree with you.  It is its lack of length that gives it its intrigue and challenges, add another 50 yards and it would become a fairly mundane and hard long hole.  I imagine most would say RSG has the better opener but Deal wins on the quirk factor.

Neat idea for a thread, discussing the two courses hole by hole.

[Sean_A]

The drive on Sandwich's 1st is far more subtle than JNC describes, watch the Open to see why.  Deal's is much more in your face with OOB on the right and harsh rough left.  The approaches are quite different as well with Sandwich's green slipping front to back and Deal's being not a gatherer, but a not a shedder, sort of a rippler, but not overly diffciult to putt on.  The green is in full view making the water the obvious issue. Its hard to say which is better because I admire that Deal has used a crap piece of land (generally flat with wet spots - low ground) to make a good hole.  Sandwich wins on subtlety and beauty, but Deal wins on intimidation.  I am gonna go with half even though Sandwich's introduces the course better and is a much more pleasant spot to start a round.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Given the strong matchplay tradition of both clubs, should we also consider the opening holes' strengths as quality 19th holes?

[Paul Nash]

Have to give it to Deal a RSG doesn't do this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz8KEQqfUts&feature=youtu.be

[Mark Chaplin]

Paul the golf darts was good fun, you may spot the Pimms monster in the background complete with club jacket. Its nice to meet the players in a relaxed state before the championship.

Just watching Ricky Fowler, he clearly understands links golf and must be a potential future champion.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark, Geoff Shackleford is saying that Deal lost about 400 yards when the sea wall was built?  If so can you identify where?



Nice idea John. 

Hole 1 neatly encapsulates the whole debate.   RSG is a hard fairway to find and Deal has a great green.  Would say RSG just shades it for interest throughout.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tony - the 9th lost about 40 yards but that has been replaced with the sea wall tee and the 6th lost a little because of the green. I'm unaware of any other lost yardage.

Saw the first driven last night at a Yonex exhibition, took the pro about 6 goes before he carried the ditch, he was playing off the forward tee at about 330 yards.

Deal and Sandwich are difficult to compare, I love Sandwich and am privilaged to get to play there a few times each year. It is a very stern driving test especially from the more sporty tees. Deal has a sublety that not everyone gets, yesterday I had a great round in the morning with Sev Keil and our guests at Deal prior to visiting the Championship. Sev's guest was a fine player and reasonably experienced on the links and like so many whom I lucky to play with he "got Deal" at the first attempt. On 12 he was just short of the green partially blocked by the bunker to a back centre pin, he hit a lowly low running wedge to 3', from the same position I went up the bank to the right with putter and finished slightly inside him. On 18 we both had a 20 yard approach to a centre pin. Wayne hit a great cut wedge within 3' fortunately my chip and run 7 iron got inside hit. The beauty of links is the way we can play completely different shots yet get good results.

[Bill_McBride]

A question for Chappers and others who are familiar with both RSG and RCP:  why is there a sea wall at Deal and not at Sandwich?

[Adam Lawrence]

Sandwich never gets as close to the water as Deal does; if you consider the way that the road to Princes, which separates RSG from the beach, is built up quite a bit, there is a fair degree of sea defence between the course and the water.

[Bill_McBride]

Sandwich never gets as close to the water as Deal does; if you consider the way that the road to Princes, which separates RSG from the beach, is built up quite a bit, there is a fair degree of sea defence between the course and the water.

Ah, forgot about that road to Princes.  Thanks, Adam.

Which also prompts acquestion.....what's the toll on that private road from Deal to RSG this week, £20??   

[Mark Chaplin]

Bill - the Sandwich Bay Estate are paid a large sum by the R&A to use their 3/4 mile of road, needless to say RCP charges nothing for people to use 2 miles of our private road.

Talking of flood risk Princes and RStG are in danger of flooding from the river so the sea will come around the back of them. Deal is more in danger of direct sea incursion.

[Michael Whitaker]

Paul the golf darts was good fun, you may spot the Pimms monster in the background complete with club jacket. Its nice to meet the players in a relaxed state before the championship.

Just watching Ricky Fowler, he clearly understands links golf and must be a potential future champion.

Our man on the scene... the ubiquitous Mr. Chaplin is always in the thick of the action!

[Paul Nash]

Paul the golf darts was good fun, you may spot the Pimms monster in the background complete with club jacket. Its nice to meet the players in a relaxed state before the championship.

Just watching Ricky Fowler, he clearly understands links golf and must be a potential future champion.

Our man on the scene... the ubiquitous Mr. Chaplin is always in the thick of the action!

Just got in from a day's fun in the rain - spotted the pimms monster!! Nicely framed Michael

[Michael Whitaker]

I think he was overheard asking Sergio if he could arrange a guest visit to Valderrama. 

[BCrosby]

Or maybe Segio was asking if he could borrow Mark's jacket?

[Carl Johnson]

I'm clueless.  I cannot find a Deal Golf Club in England, but something in New Jersey, USA comes up on google.  Can someone please give me a link to the Deal Golf Club website, that is, the website of the Deal Golf Club that is a part of this discussion.  Thanks in advance.  Carl

[Brent Hutto]

Carl,

The name of the clubs is Royal Cinque Ports Golf Club and it's located in the town of Deal. Calling the course "Deal" is like calling Royal St. Georges "Sandwich" because that's where it's at.

[Mark Bourgeois]

The drive on Sandwich's 1st is far more subtle than JNC describes, watch the Open to see why.  Deal's is much more in your face with OOB on the right and harsh rough left.  The approaches are quite different as well with Sandwich's green slipping front to back and Deal's being not a gatherer, but a not a shedder, sort of a rippler, but not overly diffciult to putt on.  The green is in full view making the water the obvious issue. Its hard to say which is better because I admire that Deal has used a crap piece of land (generally flat with wet spots - low ground) to make a good hole.  Sandwich wins on subtlety and beauty, but Deal wins on intimidation.  I am gonna go with half even though Sandwich's introduces the course better and is a much more pleasant spot to start a round.

Ciao

The HMDHC founder writes of Deal 1: '...not overly difficult to putt on...crap piece of land...flat...wet spots...' In seeming contrast, he writes of RSG 1: '...introduces the course better...much more pleasant spot...' He notes also RSG's superior subtlety and beauty, while noting RCP's primary quality is that of intimidation.

And this yields a half?

(As an aside, I certainly admire any post, on any discussion board, that manages to work in a mention of wet spots.)

[JNC Lyon]

That lawn chair jacket will stand out anywhere!

Back to the debate at hand:  after hearing the arguments, I deam Sandwich's opener the winner, by a hair.  Deal's green is great, but the one at Sandwich quite interesting as well.  The drive at Deal just isn't interesting enough

SANDWICH 1UP

HOLE NUMBER 2:

Sandwich:  A classic dogleg hole, this shorter par four keeps going with the smooth start.  The bunkers on the inside of the dogleg are perfect and likely to catch a lot of tee shots.  However, the real point of interest here is the second shot: slightly uphill, playing over a short-carry bunker, to plateau green that falls off left and right.  The green sets up well for an aerial approach (the back bank keeps balls on the green), but it gets dicey when conditions turn firm.  I enjoy the tee shot here, but the green is first-rate.  A very solid par four.

Deal:  Here, like at Sandwich's 2nd, the golfer is starting to plunge into the good terrain.  The drive appears simple enough, but the fairway is a split-level affair.  Thus, the golfer has two options: drive into the lower left, leaving a flat lie but a blind view and poor angle into the green; or, drive right to the high side of the fairway, which challenges fairway bunkers and risks an uneven stance to get a good look into the green.  The green complex here is great: running from front left to back right off a singular mound, but more receptive than you might think.  Underrated hole here, and it starts to get the golfer excited about the holes to come.

[Scott Warren]

Deal +1 through 1 for me.

The second holes:

Deal's second is a great hole with well-balanced risk/reward on the drive and a green that allows for both aerial and running approaches - as well as some really cool recovery shots.

I love that hole, love it, but the drive and the approach at Sandwich are superior, the land is even more interesting.

Sandwich wins, back to All Square.

[john_stiles]

Agree, after one,  Deal is up 1.  The drive and fairway are simple at Deal but the green is marvelous.  A similar drive at Sandwich but a few more rolls.  Deal's first green wins.

The second is halved.  Enjoy the contours of fairway and green of the second at Deal. Keep it to the right if you can.   A nice dog leg at Sandwich and you feel the need to challenge the bunkers.  An interesting green as well.  All and all a push.

Deal is still 1 up after two on my card.   Wait a minute,  I just found out I have my own card.  Haven't turned it in though. Whew ! Deal is still one up.

[Sean_A]

Mark

There is something to be said for a butt pucker opening shot and I do like teh water just shy of the green.  Although, the Dealies rave about the green, to me its good, nothing special as I never found it hard to read or putt. 

The second, for me is Sandich 1 up.  Deal's is a good hole for sure, especially how the fairway drops into the green.  However, The options at Sandwich are better off the tee and the approach from any distance is very tricky because of the huge fallway on the front right.  This is one of my favourite holes at Sandwich.

Ciao

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