Sandwich vs. Deal

[Sean_A]

While I like the highly unusual green of Deal's, the drive isn't any great shakes.  Sandwich's 12th has it all; humpty bumpty fairway and green, deviliss bunkers which all adds up to a marvelous hole.

Sandwich 2 Up

Ciao 

[Scott Warren]

I'm giving the 11th to Deal. The bunker placement is great, with that little bugger on the right that catches a strong downwind drive and leaves an awkward wedge to the green. See wall tee adds some real balls as well, especially into the wind.

So that's All Square through 11.

12 is difficult. I do enjoy Deal's 12th, but most of the fun is in the recovery shots and putts, whereas every shot on Sandwich's 12th has a lot of merit.

Sandwich 1-up.

[Mark Chaplin]

Has the wind got up? Did JNC walk from the 12th green direct to Chequers?

[Scott Warren]

I hope he hasn't pulled a Brian Phillips on us!

[Bill_McBride]

Has the wind got up? Did JNC walk from the 12th green direct to Chequers?

Please elaborate!

[Scott Warren]

Bill,

Chequers is a pub by the 15th green.

Golfers who are Dormie 4 have been known to lay down on 15 so they can have a couple before the walk back to the house!

[Mark Chaplin]

Hitting tee shots down 15, marking the balls and sneaking a quick bottle of wine in The Chequers still occasionally happens. It is also a rather more socialable storm shelter than a wooden hut.

Talking of wooden huts it is not unknown for lunch to be served at the halfway hut during matches and the Dominos pizza scooter has even delivered there.

[Brent Hutto]

Is it The Chequers that is actually a restaurant of decent quality in addition to being a pub? Or am I thinking of another establishment?

The place I visited in 2006 was owned and operated by a couple of rather flamboyant gentlemen who I must admit prepared a fine plate of fish and the cool melon soup was absolutely spot-on after 36 holes on a warmish summer day.

[Mark Chaplin]

Brent it used to be a pub now it's a restaurant with a bar. You are probably referring to the South Africans who I believe are still there.

[Brent Hutto]

Yes, that sounds right. They were from South Africa and if I recall correctly they may have just been open under that ownership for a few weeks or months when I was there.

Nice chaps. I showed up half an hour before they opened for dinner, figuring to hang out on the patio and have drink or something. They invited me in, fixed up a table for me and served dinner ahead of opening. I thought it was a charming place, can't believe I did not visit again last year while I was in town.

When I expressed initial doubt about the prospect of cold melon soup, the one fellow sort of patted my shoulder and said "Go ahead and try it, I'll finish it if you don't. But you'll like it." And I did!

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

Chequers is a pub by the 15th green.

Golfers who are Dormie 4 have been known to lay down on 15 so they can have a couple before the walk back to the house!

Please tell me again why none of you chaps had the common decency to get me in there for a quick one.   I'm really quite upset.

[Mark Chaplin]

Bill there is no such thing as a quick one, correct form is each player purchases a round prior to returning to the course!

[Bill_McBride]

Bill there is no such thing as a quick one, correct form is each player purchases a round prior to returning to the course!

......"returning to the course" on hands and knees I guess!   

[Mark Chaplin]

About time this round finshed;

The 13th

RStG - from the traditional members tees a blind tee shot at an angle over a ridge to a flat fairway, aim at the Princes accommodat. The green has a spine running through the middle making hitting the correct side of the green important for making 3 or saving par. The Open tee makes the hole longer but dead straight and you can see everything....yuk.

Deal - two large bunkers set the line of play, whilst there is room left the perfect line is over the centre of the left bunker. Cross bunkers do not come into play unless the tee shot is in trouble or it's a strong following wind which is unusual. Three left greenside bunkers rarely come into play. The green is tilted towards the player and probably rises three feet front to back, missing right leaves a tricky chip or putt up a ridge. Unusually for Deal the fringe does not take a running shot, I guess this is run off from the watering.

Both are good but neither a standout hole - HALF

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean you never replied after criticing the RCP bunkers on the 8th;

Looking forward to Sean's assessment of the appailing bunkering on 9 RSG after Darren Clark managed to jump the bunkers!!

[Scott Warren]

I think the 13th at Deal is a better hole than it gets credit for (indeed, I have been critical myself).

The green is unlike anything else on the course, big challenge to stay below the hole and at least for me those cross bunkers are a massive factor in summer unless into the wind.

I'm giving this one to Deal. ALL SQUARE.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I would urge archies to look at the front right side  of Deal’s 13th green.  This year I was cruising along 4 up, with my opponent in the cross bunkers when  I aimed too close to the pin -about 10’ on from the right hand side- and my ball rolled off into a depression.  I had never noticed before but the green was above me with a  second edge of plateau feature as well.  The total elevation was only about 5’ but it left me putting on the diagonal up two large breaks with the overall angle approaching 40 degrees.  My head said putt it at 90 degrees to the first slope and just get it on the green.  Of course I ignored it tried to get it close and took 4 shots to get down! 3 up and momentum loss.  Very cool feature- with nothing more there than short grass to beat me up.

I love the normal tee shot at RSG and from there the hole gets my vote (narrowly).  I was shocked at how easy the hole looked in the Open set up and compared to that, Deal would get my vote.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tony - the only advantage of being short but straight is a realatively easy putt up the green, left, right and long leave tough recoveries and as you mentioned with right also if you are long the issue is slope and short grass. A good example of less is more.

I wish we used the back right pins a little more often as the difficult slopes from the right side would come into play more.

[JNC Lyon]

Sorry about neglecting this thread the last few weeks--no excuses.  I'd give a win to Deal at 12 and a win to Sandwich at 13: the greens at both of those holes are incredibly interesting.

ALL SQUARE

HOLE NUMBER 14:
Sandwich: The famous Suez Canal hole, although the hazard for which the hole is named plays little or no role in the hole's strategy.  Instead, the hole has an endlessly interesting and mentally difficult challenge: keep the ball as close to the boundary line as possible to get the best angle into the green.  Yes, the green has moved, but the current green site is excellent, and I love the L-shaped back tier.  One of two very good par fives at Sandwich.

Deal: A long par three that gets better with age, the 14th is squeezed in between the 13th green and 15th tee.  I tend to like these types of greens that slope one way (in the case right-to-left) so that the player can always miss on one side (the left) and will always be dead on the other side.  The three bunkers on the right are no place to be, but, of course, the golf has to aim there to hit the green with the wind off the right.  The valley left of the green also leaves some interesting recoveries.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ah how do you compare the merits of holes with a difference of over 300 yards?


I jsut wonder if the homer in me isn't clouding my judgement too much here.  I know Deal's 14 is wonderful and I feel that with more strength than when I first saw it,  after 50+ plays. I think RSG's is also wonderfu, l but how will I feel after another 45+ plays?

Pat Ruddy told me Par 5's are the hardest to find in linksland ( ), but depite all this I'm calling it a half.

[Sean_A]

About time this round finshed;

The 13th

RStG - from the traditional members tees a blind tee shot at an angle over a ridge to a flat fairway, aim at the Princes accommodat. The green has a spine running through the middle making hitting the correct side of the green important for making 3 or saving par. The Open tee makes the hole longer but dead straight and you can see everything....yuk.

Deal - two large bunkers set the line of play, whilst there is room left the perfect line is over the centre of the left bunker. Cross bunkers do not come into play unless the tee shot is in trouble or it's a strong following wind which is unusual. Three left greenside bunkers rarely come into play. The green is tilted towards the player and probably rises three feet front to back, missing right leaves a tricky chip or putt up a ridge. Unusually for Deal the fringe does not take a running shot, I guess this is run off from the watering.

Both are good but neither a standout hole - HALF

Chappers

Good synopsis.  Half for me too.

SANDWICH 2 UP

Sorry, I thought I was quite clear that a short hole playing prevailing down wind should have a decent gap between bunkers.  You believe there is plenty of space and apparently hopping bunkers as a reasonable play.  Fair enough - I disagree.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

JNC

I think you are mistaken that Suez doesn't come into play.  I know you can reach it from the daily tees when conditions are right.

For me this is a no brianer decision.  The Suez uses OOB very well and I dislike Deal's 13th precisely because of the right bunkering scheme with the prevailing wind off the right.  I am probably in the minority, but to me the bunkering of Deal is its weakest element.

SANDWICH 3 UP

Ciao

[JNC Lyon]

Sean,

I'm not sure I understand your argument about the bunker scheme on 13.  The two bunkers at the corner guard the best angle into the green--it's that simple.  The three bunkers across the middle are strange, and they probably don't need to be there.  However, it is a solid par four nonetheless.

Sandwich's 14th is the better of the two holes, no question.  While I do like Deal's 14th, Sandwich's 14th is a classic and, as Sean says, it uses the boundary line very well.

SANDWICH 1 UP

HOLE NUMBER 15:

Sandwich: Laid out over the flattest terrain on the course, many dismiss this hole as uninteresting.  Yes, the drive is pretty straightforward.  However, the second shot plays to a brilliant and maddening greensite, with the front left of the green raised and right side of the green banked up and falling off into a swale.  The green is also guarded by three cross bunkers in the original Sandwich style.  With a bucket of balls from 190, a player might do well to get 5-10 on the green.  Bernard Darwin and Tom Simpson were big fans of this hole.

Deal: Here, the course plunges into the best three-hole stretch on either golf course.  The drive plays in similar fashion to the 13th, but the second shot is very exciting--usually a long iron or fairway wood to green that is partially hidden beyond a dramatic, rippling fairway.  Like Sandwich's 15th, this may be the toughest green on the course to hit in regulation, running away from the player into a valley beyond.  Great contours, good decisions present off the tee, and an excellent greensite.  What's not to love?

[Noel Freeman]

Sean,

I'm not sure I understand your argument about the bunker scheme on 13.  The two bunkers at the corner guard the best angle into the green--it's that simple.  The three bunkers across the middle are strange, and they probably don't need to be there.  However, it is a solid par four nonetheless.

Sandwich's 14th is the better of the two holes, no question.  While I do like Deal's 14th, Sandwich's 14th is a classic and, as Sean says, it uses the boundary line very well.

SANDWICH 1 UP

HOLE NUMBER 15:

Sandwich: Laid out over the flattest terrain on the course, many dismiss this hole as uninteresting.  Yes, the drive is pretty straightforward.  However, the second shot plays to a brilliant and maddening greensite, with the front left of the green raised and right side of the green banked up and falling off into a swale.  The green is also guarded by three cross bunkers in the original Sandwich style.  With a bucket of balls from 190, a player might do well to get 5-10 on the green.  Bernard Darwin and Tom Simpson were big fans of this hole.

Deal: Here, the course plunges into the best three-hole stretch on either golf course.  The drive plays in similar fashion to the 13th, but the second shot is very exciting--usually a long iron or fairway wood to green that is partially hidden beyond a dramatic, rippling fairway.  Like Sandwich's 15th, this may be the toughest green on the course to hit in regulation, running away from the player into a valley beyond.  Great contours, good decisions present off the tee, and an excellent greensite.  What's not to love?

The 2nd string of bunkers on #13 are there for a strong northerly.  I've driven into them with a tail wind whilst hard/fast conditions, a real marker has to take that into account during the winter.. So they DO NEED to be there..

I can't believe I disagree with Chappers.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I'm not sure I understand your argument about the bunker scheme on 13.  The two bunkers at the corner guard the best angle into the green--it's that simple.  The three bunkers across the middle are strange, and they probably don't need to be there.  However, it is a solid par four nonetheless.

Sandwich's 14th is the better of the two holes, no question.  While I do like Deal's 14th, Sandwich's 14th is a classic and, as Sean says, it uses the boundary line very well.

SANDWICH 1 UP

HOLE NUMBER 15:

Sandwich: Laid out over the flattest terrain on the course, many dismiss this hole as uninteresting.  Yes, the drive is pretty straightforward.  However, the second shot plays to a brilliant and maddening greensite, with the front left of the green raised and right side of the green banked up and falling off into a swale.  The green is also guarded by three cross bunkers in the original Sandwich style.  With a bucket of balls from 190, a player might do well to get 5-10 on the green.  Bernard Darwin and Tom Simpson were big fans of this hole.

Deal: Here, the course plunges into the best three-hole stretch on either golf course.  The drive plays in similar fashion to the 13th, but the second shot is very exciting--usually a long iron or fairway wood to green that is partially hidden beyond a dramatic, rippling fairway.  Like Sandwich's 15th, this may be the toughest green on the course to hit in regulation, running away from the player into a valley beyond.  Great contours, good decisions present off the tee, and an excellent greensite.  What's not to love?

JNC

Sorry, I meant the bunkering right of the 14th green. 

Its very difficult to pick a winner among the 15s.  Both are wonderful holes.  While Deal's drive is too similar to 13 for my taste, Sandwich's drive is difficult, but ho hum.  I would usually go for Sandwich in this case because good flat architecture trumps good humpty bumpty architecture, but I like the approach at Deal too much to call it a loser.  Half.

Sandwich 3 up.

Ciao