[Kyle Harris]

Chris:

About the Red's opener, do you agree with my concluding analysis pulled from my webpage?

"In many instances, the opening hole sets the pace for a round of golf: however, opportunities to take advantage of special terrain in the area of the opening hole should be encouraged. This opener accomplishes getting the golfer to the topography most utilized by the Red Course that happens to lay an awkward distance from the starting point. Despite the 471-yard card yardage, the tee shot plays significantly downhill and does much to cut some of the length. Even modest drives will grant the golfer an executable approach shot by taking advantage of the left side. The key to this hole is for the golfer to use the first two shots to place themselves in a position to get down in the subsequent two. With a wide open approach, this can patiently be accomplished with a well-placed Driver and mid-iron shot."

[Ronald Montesano]

"while the Red hole is flatter, more direct, in its positioning to the tee."

I imagined that line would cause some trouble in interpretation...the key are the words "in its positioning." The positioning of the green is more square/less angled to the tee, than B3.

[Kyle Harris]

"while the Red hole is flatter, more direct, in its positioning to the tee."

I imagined that line would cause some trouble in interpretation...the key are the words "in its positioning." The positioning of the green is more square/less angled to the tee, than B3.

Understood. I think B3 plays ever so slightly uphill while R3 plays just a touch downhill. Missing left on R3 is almost certain death, and I don't believe that is the case on B3 because of this angle. I had always considered R3 a bit of a redan, missing high right makes for a difficult recovery.

[Chris DeNigris]

Ron- There are a lot of similarities but for me I like the bunkering better on B3 and the overall aesthetics. Of course it helps that when you turn left after holing out you are rewarded with one of the most beautiful views in golf 

Kyle- I don't hit it far enough to likely ever have a mid iron into R1...in the 3 times I've played it it's always been 200+ coming up that steep slope. I might have been into the wind a couple of times. The uphill approach negates the downhill drive in terms of shaving distance I think. Just not my cup of tea for your first 2 swings. I like the hole in general though, however all the character seems to be in the first 450 yards.

[Kyle Harris]

Chris:

I don't necessarily mean achieving the green with the mid-iron, but instead getting in possible to get down in the next two shots. The seemingly simple nature of the green works to the golfer's advantage if approached correctly. One really has to use the left side of the fairway to simplify the challenge presented by the distance.

[Ronald Montesano]

And that's why you call it a great half-par hole...hit your driver to loosen up...hit your six iron up the hill...trust your partial wedge to get you on the green for a run at 4 and a sure 5. That's my kind of opening hole. I'd play El Rojo every day if I could, from any set of tees.

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 7...Par 3: 184\174\144...As KLynch remarked on more than one occasion (and I paraphrase) Tilly never met a valley over which he couldn't run a par 3! Yet another short hole that traverses an earthly dent, this one differs from others in that his valley typically run from right to left, whereas this one goes the other way! The hole can be played with as much as a hybrid or, if the tees are up, as little as a 9-iron. The hole has a bit of fairway fronting the green on the left; it does not serve as a kicker on to the green. The hole cries out for a little left-to-right shot, if you have that one in your quiver. As this was walking hole #25 of the day, I took no pictures from behind the green, so apologies for that.

From Deep


From Close

[Kyle Harris]

Ron:

Are you going to do photo tours of all five golf courses? If so, I think a discussion about the short holes at Bethpage would provide some lively chatter. The big guns (Black, Red, arguably Blue) feature some rather mundane or non-diverse shorties. Not so for the Green and Yellow.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Good discussion so far... I'd take Red #4 v Black #3 any day. While Kyle has already made most of the case for the Red, I think what most who would take the opposite opinion forget is that the anticipation of playing of one of the best par-5's in the world. Once you are on the green of the long par-3 views of the Glacial hole are unavoidable and naturally get the blood flowing and no doubt influence ones opinion of #3... How could it not be great? its on the black and #4 and #5 are just around the corner?

[Ronald Montesano]

Kyle, Indeed I intend to do PPs on all five courses. And, to whet everyone's appetite, the best par three at Bethpage is on ... the Yellow course!

[Ronald Montesano]

And winner of the greatest variety in par three holes goes to ... the Green!

[Kyle Harris]

Ron:

I think both awards go to the Green. Yellow has some good ones too.

[Brian Finn]

Kyle, Indeed I intend to do PPs on all five courses. And, to whet everyone's appetite, the best par three at Bethpage is on ... the Yellow course!

Ron - Thanks for the terrific pictures and commentary.  Looking forward to each of the course profiles.  I grew up in the area and have played each of the courses countless times...you are making me miss home more than ever!

Weighing in on the par 3 discussion, my personal favorites are Yellow # 14,  Green # 15 and Green # 11 (such an interesting green with the bunkering and mounds).  My favorite on the Red is # 7 and on the Black # 17.

I have always found both Yellow and Green to be incredibly enjoyable golf courses.  Neither is long (many locals avoid the Yellow, viewing it as "too short," which I find laughable), but both offer great variety and require solid shotmaking.  Although I recognize Black and Red are the class of the 5 courses, Green and Red have always been the most enjoyable in my mind.  Not sure what that says about my view on quality vs. enjoyment, other than the fact that they do differ for me.

[Kyle Harris]

Brian:

Perhaps getting ahead of the game here, but I feel the best Tillinghast holes from the old Blue are on the Yellow and the best Alfred Tull holes are on today's Blue.

Thoughts?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Brian:

Perhaps getting ahead of the game here, but I feel the best Tillinghast holes from the old Blue are on the Yellow and the best Alfred Tull holes are on today's Blue.

Thoughts?

Junior,

  I'll concur with you.  In fact, I think our day of BSP Red/Yellow was a good day to look at those courses in tandem. 

Looking at Historicaerials.com will give a good view of the course from the 1940s (Yellow wasn't built until the late 1950s)
Personally, I think #10, 12, 13, 14 are probably the best of the bunch.  Why? 

10.  Go/no go par 5, with good use of angles, challenging the fairway bunker for position
12.  I like the split fairway but no real reward for going right.  This hole may have been dumbed down by park maintenance in years past.
13.  Good long par 4, close to the bunker is best angle, playing outside leaves a longer shot.  I believe there may have been fairway around bunker at one point.
14.  Just a pretty hole, bunkering struck me as very impressive, a little different from the standard Bethpage 6-iron/7 iron par 3. 

Some of the terrain on the front nine of Yellow is pretty good. 

I'll come back with opinion on the Tull holes on Blue.  2 is a good, long, tough par 4, a tighter drive requirement and long iron. 

[Kyle Harris]

Brian:

Perhaps getting ahead of the game here, but I feel the best Tillinghast holes from the old Blue are on the Yellow and the best Alfred Tull holes are on today's Blue.

Thoughts?

Junior,

  I'll concur with you.  In fact, I think our day of BSP Red/Yellow was a good day to look at those courses in tandem. 

Looking at Historicaerials.com will give a good view of the course from the 1940s (Yellow wasn't built until the late 1950s)
Personally, I think #10, 12, 13, 14 are probably the best of the bunch.  Why? 

10.  Go/no go par 5, with good use of angles, challenging the fairway bunker for position
12.  I like the split fairway but no real reward for going right.  This hole may have been dumbed down by park maintenance in years past.
13.  Good long par 4, close to the bunker is best angle, playing outside leaves a longer shot.  I believe there may have been fairway around bunker at one point.
14.  Just a pretty hole, bunkering struck me as very impressive, a little different from the standard Bethpage 6-iron/7 iron par 3. 

Some of the terrain on the front nine of Yellow is pretty good. 

I'll come back with opinion on the Tull holes on Blue.  2 is a good, long, tough par 4, a tighter drive requirement and long iron. 

Duggles,

The first nine on the Yellow gets short shrift I think mainly because of the awkwardness of the routing approaching the turn. As you know, I rank the Blue course behind the putting green in front of the clubhouse that is rarely open but good holes like the second, twelfth and seventeenth make it worth a play or two. The short holes on the Blue are all clunkers, IMO.

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 8...Par 4: 378\366\354...A really cool flat hole, in my opinion. Tilly warns you not once, but twice, to stay away from the right side. The trees/bunkers combination still got me, however, as I bailed right and was sanded. The perfect aim line, precise though it might be, is a cut that starts between the right edge of the left fairway bunker and the deep grove of trees, for an aaverage-distance, right-handed golfer. The approach to the putting grounds also works best from left to right, although a straight-in runner will certainly win the day. Rarely (#1 comes to mind) do you get the chance the play the runner on Bethpage Black; in contrast, the Red offers more opportunities for this type of approach.

From Tee Deck


Closer From Tee Deck


Left Edge of Right Fairway Bunker


Closer From Same Edge

[Kyle Harris]

Ron:

Some good photos of the beginning of a really good stretch of holes that makes the most of the flatter portion of the property. This hole exemplifies a key difference between the Red and Black courses, especially at the green. Recovery from behind and right of this green requires skillful play while the preferred approach from the left side of the fairway yields more options for attack. While the Black demands a certain degree of strategic thinking, the Red Course places better emphasis on strategy in attacking the hole to score.

[Ronald Montesano]

Kyle, I was so spent at this juncture that my photography was reduced to tees and greens...I somewhat regret not getting more shots from behind greens, but we also had some D-Bs behind us who would ultimately drive into us on hole #10. No words nor punches were exchanged, but there was nowhere to go and I didn't quite understand their anxiety. This hole was cool; I think that I escaped with a par, despite the drive into the bunker.

[Ronald Montesano]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 9...Par 4: 466\449\433...This one is plenty hearty, although the wind typically aids your drive and approach. If you aren't scared by the lost zone to the left, you don't scare easily. Trouble is, there is a fearsome bunker tandem (the farther-right half is more often in play on #10) on the right, so you cannot flare one that way, either. If you're intelligent, you play for the 4.5...one putt gets you 4, two putts get you 5.

From Tee Deck


Closer From Tee Deck


Scary Stuff On Left


Approach From Fairway Center


Closer In (who doesn't love that left seeing-eye bunker?)

[Doug Braunsdorf]

If I can add to the proceedings, I think what is most special about the Red Course is playing most of the first seven holes in/around a wooded area, up and down hills, and then the golfer walks off 7 green onto the 8th tee, whereby they are treated to sweeping views of a plain-the golfer plays 8-15 and then comes back into the trees to play 16-18.  So, different looks all around the golf course. 
The park would probably do well to take down the niggling evergreens in this area, as the hardwoods are non obtrusive and attractive to look at, and don't impact play too much, although there may be some argument made to keep some there for safety purposes. 

[Kyle Harris]

A great hole and as Ron noted best played as a Par 4.5

The flat property here works in the hole's favor as finding the correct line from the tee is extremely difficult. The hole's dogleg sweeps in front of the golfer and it's conceivable to find a line of play over a 60 degree arc.

People like Jay Flemma who spew on and on about the lack of "line of charm" on the Red Course seem to forget holes such as the sixth, ninth, tenth and fifteenth.

[Brian Finn]

Brian:

Perhaps getting ahead of the game here, but I feel the best Tillinghast holes from the old Blue are on the Yellow and the best Alfred Tull holes are on today's Blue.

Thoughts?

10 through 14 on the yellow is definitely the best stretch on either course.  I especially like 13 and 14.  Doug has already done a nice job highlighting these holes.  I believe Yellow # 17 is also original Tillinghast (not certain), and I like that hole as well.  It is a short par 5 by today's standards, but makes nice use of the elevation change.  Of course, only bombers will have a clear look at the green on their second, and while I find the potentially blind second entirely appropriate, some may not like it.

As for the Blue, I am generally not a very big fan.  The course has a handful of awful holes (#9 comes to mind) and some awkward transitions.  Plus, while I don't think any of the par 3s are awful, they all feel so similar to one another. 

I am personally not totally sure which holes on today's Blue are original Tillie work.  I am fairly certain that the holes I do enjoy on the Blue (#6, #8) are Tull's work.

[Brian Finn]

Bethpage Red~Hole # 9...Par 4: 466\449\433...This one is plenty hearty, although the wind typically aids your drive and approach. If you aren't scared by the lost zone to the left, you don't scare easily. Trouble is, there is a fearsome bunker tandem (the farther-right half is more often in play on #10) on the right, so you cannot flare one that way, either. If you're intelligent, you play for the 4.5...one putt gets you 4, two putts get you 5.

The Red is packed with tough par 4s, and I think #9 is second only to #1 in difficulty making par.  I've never been a big hitter, but somehow I always felt compelled to try to challenge the left side (only to compound errors by not chipping/blasting out to the fairway from the junk).  However, in the rare instance that I was scoring well, I always took the slightly more conservative route, leaving a long iron / hybrid / fairway wood second.  In this case, leaving it just short and right of the green usually left a strong possibility for par with a decent up and down.

Looking forward to your work on the second 9, particularly holes 13 and 15.  I have not played the Red in several years, and I am especially curious to see if they still have fairway cut right of the bunkers on 13...I am not sure if the original routing called for the split fairway, but I always liked it on 13.

[Ronald Montesano]

They do have fairway on both sides of the bunker mob on 13. None of us found the fairway to either side (only I found it short, with a thinned drive), so we knew instantly that a second and third playing would be necessary to find the proper line to attack from the left.

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