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Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2011, 11:54:38 AM »
Quote from: Tim Bert on July 14, 2011, 11:43:06 AM

Someone is going to have to create a spreadsheet with all the post-moderns and have everyone vote for everyone they've played if this is to have any value.


Tim:

I was trying not to have to get to that point, and just have people rate the likely candidates they've played.  But you are right, we'd need a ballot and there might need to be 30-50 courses on it.

Let's start with any course that's gotten two stars from anybody so far:

Ballyneal
Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Cal Club [should it count?]

Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Dismal River I
Friars Head
Kingsbarns

Kingsley Club
Kinloch
Lost Farm
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes

The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon
Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach

What others would someone give two stars or rate higher than half of those above?



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Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2011, 12:23:06 PM »
If the Cal Club counts, does ANGC count as well?

And although I wouldn't get my vote, the ballot should include Whistling Straits.

Others that are notable for various reasons and should be included in the conversation:

Saguaro - desert course designed with walking in mind
Wild Horse - the community course
Erin Hills - as deserving of discussion as Chambers Bay
Wine Valley - this site needs more photos of WV
Hidden Creek - way below the radar
Dunes Club - the 9-holer

TOC - Kiawah was 1991, doesn't count
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Paul Jones

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Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2011, 12:37:33 PM »
Let's start with any course that's gotten two stars from anybody so far:

Ballyneal
Bandon Dunes ***
Bandon Trails **
Barnbougle Dunes
Cal Club [should it count?]

Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay *
Dismal River I
Friars Head
Kingsbarns **

Kingsley Club **
Kinloch **
Lost Farm
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes ***

The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon
Sand Hills ***
Sebonack *
St. Andrews Beach
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Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2011, 12:39:24 PM »
Quote from: Sven Nilsen on July 14, 2011, 12:23:06 PM
If the Cal Club counts, does ANGC count as well?

And although I wouldn't get my vote, the ballot should include Whistling Straits.

Others that are notable for various reasons and should be included in the conversation:

Saguaro - desert course designed with walking in mind
Wild Horse - the community course
Erin Hills - as deserving of discussion as Chambers Bay
Wine Valley - this site needs more photos of WV
Hidden Creek - way below the radar
Dunes Club - the 9-holer

TOC - Kiawah was 1991, doesn't count


The Dunes Club is pre-95 I believe...How about Lost Dunes?
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2011, 12:48:48 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on July 14, 2011, 12:39:24 PM
Quote from: Sven Nilsen on July 14, 2011, 12:23:06 PM

The Dunes Club is pre-95 I believe...How about Lost Dunes?

Unless 1995 (per GW) is pre-95, you are mistaken.  However, I did find someone else that attributes it to 1990, in which case GW and I would both be mistaken.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2011, 12:52:09 PM »
Quote from: Paul Jones on July 14, 2011, 12:37:33 PM
Let's start with any course that's gotten two stars from anybody so far:

Ballyneal
Bandon Dunes ***
Bandon Trails **
Barnbougle Dunes
Cal Club [should it count?]

Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay *
Dismal River I
Friars Head
Kingsbarns **

Kingsley Club **
Kinloch **
Lost Farm
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes ***

The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon
Sand Hills ***
Sebonack *
St. Andrews Beach


I enjoy this thread and am working on my list, but agree that it needs further definition.  On Paul's list, for instance, I do not know what it means if a course receives no stars.  Was it not played or does it not deserve any stars?  I'm guessing that the courses above were not played.  Perhaps we need to add that if it was played and you judge it not deserving of any stars, it receive a 0.  If this does go into a spreadsheet, the only way it can be accurate is if those without a star are so noted.
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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2011, 12:57:24 PM »
This really narrows the scope and is therefore, easier to focus on true delineation than a 10 point scale IMO.  I didn't list all the moderns I've seen, just some that help form a clear distinction.

Pac Dunes***
Ballyneal***
Wolf Point***

Friars Head**
Kingsley **
Bandon Trails*

Stone Eagle*
Hidden Creek*
Bandon Dunes*

TPC Oaks San Antonio
Saguaro
TS North



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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2011, 01:02:52 PM »
I will reboot this thread once we close the nominations.

I will keep adding to the ballot in this spot as nominations come in.  I'm going to add any new courses that are in the top 100 in the world, and any that are in the GOLFWEEK top 30 modern, as deserving of the ballot.  After that, it's any course that at least two people would give two stars, below this post.

Here goes:

Arcadia Bluffs
Ballyhack
Ballyneal
Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Bayonne
Cal Club [should it count?]
Calusa Pines
Cape Kidnappers
Castle Stuart
Chambers Bay
Dallas National
Diamante
Dismal River I
Erin Hills
Friars Head
Hidden Creek
Kauri Cliffs
Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kinloch
Lost Farm
Monterey Peninsula (Shore)
Nanea
Nine Bridges, Korea
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal
Old Macdonald
Old Sandwich
Pacific Dunes
Quarry at Giant's Ridge
The Renaissance Club
Rock Creek
Rustic Canyon
Sagebrush
Sand Hills
Sebonack
St. Andrews Beach
Sutton Bay
Victoria National
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Wild Horse
Wine Valley
Wolf Point

I first saw The Dunes Club en route home from my son's baptism, in 1991, so that 1995 date can't be right.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 02:51:01 PM by Tom_Doak »
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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2011, 01:10:44 PM »
I make a MAJOR detour every chance I get to visit Sutton Bay. I haven't seen enough of the others to be taking part in this, but I would give it at least two Michelin stars.

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"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2011, 01:14:47 PM »
To repeat, Ballyneal***, Renaissance**, and Dismal River**.  I'd almost include Inniscrone as a **, but it has a couple weak holes that keep it out.
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"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - A More Scientific Way
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2011, 01:18:17 PM »
Old MacDonald ***

Chambers Bay **
Bandon Trails **

Wine Valley *
Pacific Dunes *
Sagebrush *
Juniper *
Tetherow *

Palouse Ridge 0
Others 0

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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2011, 01:24:29 PM »
Huntsman Springs?
Inniscrone?
the Horse Course?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:26:21 PM by Jud Tigerman »
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2011, 01:28:14 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on July 14, 2011, 01:24:29 PM
Huntsman Springs?
Inniscrone?
the Horse Course?

Jud:

We're not trying to list the top 50 here.  If you wouldn't give them two stars, they don't need to be on the ballot.
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Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2011, 01:37:53 PM »
Colorado Golf Club is as good as at least five of the courses currently nominated. I'll second the motion for its inclusion.
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Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2011, 01:43:28 PM »
Corrected
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:04:51 PM by Wyatt Halliday »
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2011, 01:43:54 PM »
ok-Lost Dunes I'd give 2 stars to....
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2011, 01:44:37 PM »
***
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes

**
Bandon Trails
Chambers Bay
Pronghorn (Fazio)
Sagebrush

*
Clear Creek
Cuscowilla
MPCC (Shore)
Old Macdonald
Rock Creek Cattle
Rustic Canyon
Wine Valley

Good courses played but not there
Bandon Dunes, Wild Horse, Royal New Kent.
Arcadia Bluffs, Home Course, Juniper, Stone Eagle,
Wild Horse, Kingsbarns, Tobiano, Palms, Plantation, National(Moonah), Wolf Creek,
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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2011, 01:46:03 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on July 14, 2011, 01:24:29 PM
Inniscrone?

I'm one of Hanse's biggest fans but I'd call Inniscrone his third best course in Philadelphia.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2011, 01:52:10 PM »
Quote from: Pete_Pittock on July 14, 2011, 01:44:37 PM
***

**
...
Sagebrush

*
...
Old Macdonald
...

Good courses played but not there
...

Homer!  ;D
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2011, 02:00:33 PM »
***
Ballyneal
RCCC
Pacific Dunes

**
Gozzer Ranch
Wine Valley

*
Black Rock

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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2011, 02:03:00 PM »
I've never seen a few of these, but I'm surprised not to see Boston GC, Greywalls, Tobacco Road, Dormie Club.
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Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2011, 02:10:54 PM »
Here are mine - I haven't played too many so "N' = not played.  Wow, many of you guys need to get out here!

Arcadia Bluffs - N
Ballyneal - N
Bandon Dunes *
Bandon Trails **
Barnbougle Dunes - N
Bayonne - N
Cal Club [should it count?] - N
Calusa Pines - N
Cape Kidnappers - N
Castle Stuart - N
Chambers Bay - N
Dallas National - N
Dismal River I ***
Dismal River II ***
Erin Hills - N
Friars Head - **
Hidden Creek - N
Kauri Cliffs - N
Kingsbarns - **
Kingsley Club - N
Kinloch - N
Lost Farm - N
Monterey Peninsula (Shore) *
Nanea - N
Nine Bridges, Korea - N
Oitavos Dunes, Portugal - N
Old Macdonald **
Old Sandwich - N
Pacific Dunes***
The Renaissance Club - N
Rock Creek - N
Rustic Canyon - N
Sand Hills***
Sebonack - N
St. Andrews Beach - N
Whistling Straits (Straits)*
Wild Horse*
Wine Valley - N
Wolf Point - N

The Gallery Original - *
Whisper Rock *
Estancia*
Iron Horse*
Shooting Star*
Huntsman Springs*
Snake River Sporting Club *** (now closed)


I first saw The Dunes Club en route home from my son's baptism, in 1991, so that 1995 date can't be right.
[/quote]
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Anthony Gray

Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2011, 02:13:23 PM »
 Pacific Dunes
 Diamante
 Kingsbarns
 Castle Stuart
 Chambers Bay
 Whistling Straites
 Bandon Dunes
 Wine Valley
 Cape Kidnappers
 Bandon Trails
 Roko Ki
 Cap Cana

  In that order of the ones I've played. All ***.

  Anthony

  
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:48:48 PM by Anthony Gray »
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Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2011, 02:20:26 PM »
Rock Creek ***
Sand Hills ***
Pac Dunes ***
Old Macdonald ***
Victoria National ***
Ballyneal ***
Sebonack ***
Friars Head ***
Alotian ***
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Mr Hurricane

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top Ten Courses Since 1995 - Taking Nominations
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2011, 02:22:27 PM »
Arcadia Bluffs-0
Bahia de Los Suenos-*
Bandon Dunes-*
Bandon Trails-**
Balck Sheep-*
Barona Creek-*
Diamante-*
Erin Hills-*
Forest Creek N-*
Forest Creek S-0
Kingsbarns-**
Kingsley Club-***
Lost Dunes-**
Pacific Dunes-***
Rustic Canyon-**
Talking Stick North-*
Tobacco Road-*
WeKoPa Saguaro-*
Whistling Straits (Straits)-*
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 03:39:15 PM by Jud Tigerman »
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak
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