Fake jagged edge bunkers. Why?

[Mike_Young]

Over the last several years several of the "signature" architects have begun to take their normal dull flat grass faces and cut "jagged edges"  sand lines into them.  Does anyone notice that or is it just me being a dork?

[Bill_McBride]

Over the last several years several of the "signature" architects have begun to take their normal dull flat grass faces and cut "jagged edges"  sand lines into them.  Does anyone notice that or is it just me being a dork?

You dorky?  I don't think so.

Why would they do that when reduced cost of maintenance is more important?

[Randy Thompson]

Mike,
I will drink to that! It especially annoying when you have the standard bowling allley courses with houses on both sides and they come in redo and give this refreshing modern look. Its the new fashion. I really like them in the correct enviroment, links, older classic looking designs, Nebraska but here there everywhere makes me wanna puke. Were presently trying our first nine holes that will have an old classic look  and I like what see on the first coulple of attempts but I still may change my mind later on! Its kinda like in the 80's, mounds were cool in some dune properties and so they started poping up here there and everywhere including swamps like TPC and deserts like PGA West. Dye is still my hero, don´t get me wrong but he got sucked into something that was selling and working at the time so who could blame him. Looking at some of these artifical mounding now can cause some stomach pain and bad as these may look now, he pulled it off much better than the other signatures trying to copy. To get specific on todays fad and signature architects getting on the board with the torn or jagged look. The Nicklaus group pulled it off perfectly in my opinion at Dismal River, excellent results and the correct setting but now it has become standard on most of there courses, doesn´t matter the setting.

[Mike Nuzzo]

They are everywhere
And built worse and worse every year
They look like frilly cookie cutters
Makes me ill

[Mike_Young]

Randy,
I know what you are saying but I am speaking more of single plane grass faces.  For example, a Raynor bunker type face and then some guy comes in and puts the jagged look to it with a sand line.  It's just bad art.

[Adam Clayman]

Take a look at the old pictures upstairs at Riviera. Those Bell bunkers were exquisite. A random edge is better than the saucer cup look. It does depend on how, and where. Which I suppose boils down to who built them, and how much thought went into them.

[Mike_Young]

Take a look at the old pictures upstairs at Riviera. Those Bell bunkers were exquisite. A random edge is better than the saucer cup look. It does depend on how, and where. Which I suppose boils down to who built them, and how much thought went into them.

Adam,
I'm talking about a flat grass face with no movement.  I keep seeing these thing where they just paint a jagged line on it and make a new sand line.  I agree with randomness.

[Tom_Doak]

Randy,
I know what you are saying but I am speaking more of single plane grass faces.  For example, a Raynor bunker type face and then some guy comes in and puts the jagged look to it with a sand line.  It's just bad art.

Mike:

You should have seen the Von Hagge version of Camargo!

[Mike_Young]

Randy,
I know what you are saying but I am speaking more of single plane grass faces.  For example, a Raynor bunker type face and then some guy comes in and puts the jagged look to it with a sand line.  It's just bad art.

Mike:

You should have seen the Von Hagge version of Camargo!

TD,
I saw it on a few holes there.  Maybe five or six years ago....did you take all of that out?

[Jeff_Brauer]

It is an interesting philosophical question.  For example, using LA Country Club - even if frilly edges made sense when the property was surrounded by dunes, do frilly edges make sense now that the course is surrounded by the refined landscapes of lush lawns and mansions?

Do the frilly edges ever really make sense from a playability POV? If you take the old proportionality argument really, really seriously, does missing the green by six feet and getting an unplayable make sense if you miss by 20 feet and get a smooth flat bottom lie?  Does missing to the far edge of a frilly bunker, which really gives you the UP situation make sense, as in a Penalty Stroke for missing the green by 50 feet?

They sure made sense at Sand Hills and a few other locales because fitting that great site over rode most of the normal considerations.  But, they seem to be getting put everywhere, and they often seem out of context to me, even visually.  And, I still wonder if any artificial bunker built to resemble a land far away (Sand Hills or Scotland, most of which, BTW have also been smoothed out over time, not really many jagged edges there now) makes more sense for reasons listed. 

Isn't it more "sincere" to just recognize that bunkers are mostly pieces of abstract art and not any real simulation of nature?

NOTE: Pre-coffee ramblings don't count against my gca.com record.......

[Tom_Doak]

Randy,
I know what you are saying but I am speaking more of single plane grass faces.  For example, a Raynor bunker type face and then some guy comes in and puts the jagged look to it with a sand line.  It's just bad art.

Mike:

You should have seen the Von Hagge version of Camargo!

TD,
I saw it on a few holes there.  Maybe five or six years ago....did you take all of that out?

Every bit of it.  Only took about 15 years to do it all.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I prefer the ‘Brazilian’ finish, its gives a good definition, highlighting the difference rather well.

Nothing fake about a Brazilian, could be described as a work of art.

Melvyn

[Phil McDade]

Mike:

Here's a thread from a couple of years ago on the bunkering at Flossmoor (Tweedie originally) that speaks to your issue, with a contrast-and-compare look at some other bunkering:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41574.0.html

[Ryan Farrow]

It is an interesting philosophical question.  For example, using LA Country Club - even if frilly edges made sense when the property was surrounded by dunes, do frilly edges make sense now that the course is surrounded by the refined landscapes of lush lawns and mansions?

Do the frilly edges ever really make sense from a playability POV? If you take the old proportionality argument really, really seriously, does missing the green by six feet and getting an unplayable make sense if you miss by 20 feet and get a smooth flat bottom lie?  Does missing to the far edge of a frilly bunker, which really gives you the UP situation make sense, as in a Penalty Stroke for missing the green by 50 feet?

They sure made sense at Sand Hills and a few other locales because fitting that great site over rode most of the normal considerations.  But, they seem to be getting put everywhere, and they often seem out of context to me, even visually.  And, I still wonder if any artificial bunker built to resemble a land far away (Sand Hills or Scotland, most of which, BTW have also been smoothed out over time, not really many jagged edges there now) makes more sense for reasons listed. 

Isn't it more "sincere" to just recognize that bunkers are mostly pieces of abstract art and not any real simulation of nature?

NOTE: Pre-coffee ramblings don't count against my gca.com record.......

Jeff, as far as the playability goes, I agree with you 100%. Now, I thought Erin Hills was spectacular, And right up there with the Straits Course, but if you miss a green by a foot, does it warrant an unplayable lie?

I say no. Fairway, bunkers I am a bit more lenient, but I still think you should leave the silly stuff to the outside edges, and leave the golf side of it in some type of rough grass where you can find you ball and still have a shot, I think the irregular shapes are fine, but the tall grasses just off the fairway or just off the green need to go away. And that goes out to all you superintendents out there. Bust out the fly mowers!


And with all bunkers, there is an art to it. If you mail home frilly edged bunkers, they are going to look stupid, you at least need a capable crew, and an architect who understands the scale of the property to pull it off correctly. Too many times, I see architects under-sizing the filly bunkers, does not look good. And lets face it, some architects would be terrible shapers......

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ryan,

There is an art.  I went around Arbor Links with Bill Kubly in May and he (as part owner) has actually spent a lot of time on site painting the eges of those bunkers to keep improving them from Palmers originals. 

In short, he looks for bare areas between grass clumps, and leaves some clumps of native grass in the bunker, etc.  In other words, he just helps the evolution along on the native side.

Some of those photos, with frilly edges against mowed turf don't look evolved.  The simply look more curvy and just as some gca won't more than double the grades to maintain a natural look, I believe that in some cases, the amount of curves in a bunker shape might relate to the broader landscape.  In other words, frilly edges probably tie in better on a sharply varying landscape, and simpler shapes seem to tie in better on gently rolling land.

Or, if we just accept that bunkers are abstract pieces of art, maybe the edges just need to be well done in terms of proportion, etc.  Many of those jagged edges are really just smaller and smaller curves heaped on each other, not really random looking.

Short version, again, yes, its an art.

[Charlie Goerges]

I prefer the ‘Brazilian’ finish, its gives a good definition, highlighting the difference rather well.

Nothing fake about a Brazilian, could be described as a work of art.

Melvyn

Attention Melvyn! Someone has logged in to your GCA account and is pretending to be you!

[Eric Smith]

I prefer the ‘Brazilian’ finish, its gives a good definition, highlighting the difference rather well.

Nothing fake about a Brazilian, could be described as a work of art.

Melvyn

Attention Melvyn! Someone has logged in to your GCA account and is pretending to be you!

[Charlie Goerges]

I prefer the ‘Brazilian’ finish, its gives a good definition, highlighting the difference rather well.

Nothing fake about a Brazilian, could be described as a work of art.

Melvyn

Attention Melvyn! Someone has logged in to your GCA account and is pretending to be you!

I'm getting a sudden craving for Granola and the scent of patchouli

[Niall C]

Randy,
I know what you are saying but I am speaking more of single plane grass faces.  For example, a Raynor bunker type face and then some guy comes in and puts the jagged look to it with a sand line.  It's just bad art.

Mike

I think I know what you mean, where you have a regular top line of grass at the face and then below the wavy line boundary between the grass and sand built in to the face of the bunker. Looks ridiculous to my eyes irrespective of the context. If you're going to do a ragged edge bunker do it properly IMHO.

Niall

[Kalen Braley]

I'm sort of curious on this one.

Can someone provide a couple of pics of good examples of nicely done frilley edge bunkers, followed by poorly done ones?  I must admit, I've always had trouble discerning between the two.

[Bill Brightly]

I'll suggest that these "frilly" bunkers really look good:

[Grant Saunders]

 Some of those photos, with frilly edges against mowed turf don't look evolved.  The simply look more curvy and just as some gca won't more than double the grades to maintain a natural look, I believe that in some cases, the amount of curves in a bunker shape might relate to the broader landscape.  In other words, frilly edges probably tie in better on a sharply varying landscape, and simpler shapes seem to tie in better on gently rolling land.

I agree with Jeffs comment here 100%. I think the most natural looking work is scaled in relation to not only the immediate surrounding but also the wider landscape.

These photos are from arecent thread on the new bunkers at Cork Golf Club. In my opinion, the original bunkers in the first picture are much more in fitting with the landscape. Particularly, my eye is drawn to the gently rolling horizon line across the water and the softly contoured forground.. I feel the original bunkers have lines which compliment both of these features as opposed to the new ones which to me are quite jarring.

[Lester George]

Bill,

I really like the ones you showed!

Lester

[Will Lozier]

Tom Doak,

I am an Ohio boy (used to date Pete's goddaughter from Urbana) and have only walked Camargo while my father and brother have played it multiple times.  Do you have any photos of the bunkers before you arrived?  Also, why didn't you get to see Springfield CC when you where in Urbana?

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

I really like the ones you showed!

Lester

Yeah, one helluva shaper