[Joe Bausch]

Since there seems to be a Pine Valley theme lately to the board, I present an article from the September 17, 1916 edition of the NY Tribune by probably the first famous sportswriter in this country, Grantland Rice.  He visited PV not long after the US Amateur at Merion.

Grantland Rice was a pretty decent golfer, and was a member at the NLE Englewood.

[Anthony Gray]

  Its a shame no comments on this thread.I did not know from day one what a repitation PV had.Thanks for the thread Joe.

  Anthony

[Matt MacIver]

The quote that struck me is that the course was being built "inch by inch".  Does that mean a lot of earth-moving was done - I would have thought not given the era.  Or does it mean the careful amount of time taken to conceive and create each hole, owing to Crump living on the property, all the site visits by friendly collaborators, etc?  Has any great course taken longer to build?  Is that in part why PV is so great?  What if C&C had spent more time at Sand Hills? 

[Rick Shefchik]

The quote that struck me is that the course was being built "inch by inch".  Does that mean a lot of earth-moving was done - I would have thought not given the era.  Or does it mean the careful amount of time taken to conceive and create each hole, owing to Crump living on the property, all the site visits by friendly collaborators, etc?  Has any great course taken longer to build?  Is that in part why PV is so great?  What if C&C had spent more time at Sand Hills? 

Well, how much greater could Sand Hills be, with no trees and no water? Seems to me if they'd spent a whole lot more time there, the best Coore & Crenshaw might have been able to do is reduce Sand Hills to another Shadow Creek.

[JESII]

I doubt Shadow Creek was the result of TOO much time on site. I've heard it's a great course, but it hardly seems like time on site was based on searching out the natural flow o the land and building the course upon it.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jim, my point was that Sand Hills is said to have routed itself, with plenty of natural features. Extra time on the site wouldn't have made it any better, in my opinion; just more manufactured.

[JESII]

Maybe...I haven't been there, but I am of the opinion that clubs should sign long term contracts with their architect because the result seems to be pretty good when it happens.

[Mike Cirba]

The funny thing is that one of our prominent frequent posters here scoffed at Hugh Wilson suggesting in 1916 that any club building a course should visit Pine Valley (and NGLA) where they could see the best of golf holes.  

How could he? this poster argued...was he stupid?   Pine Valley wasn't even finished yet!    

So goes the state of what passes for GCA historical research here these days, apparently.  

Carry on. 

[Rick Shefchik]

A story in the Sept. 17, 1916 Minneapolis Tribune said Donald Ross's goal in designing Woodhill Country Club in Wayzata, Minnesota, was to surpass Pine Valley as the greatest course in the country.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rick,

I think Hollywood may have been crafted to rival PV.

The original aerial photos of Hollywood are quite incredible.

Unfortunately, a great number of the bunkers were removed to accomodate the broadening spectrum of golfer.

Pine Valley was designed to test and train the best golfers.

While it can accomodate the mediocre and poor golfer, that wasn't the original intent.

[Tom MacWood]

I'd love see what Woodhill was like back in the day, it sounds fascinating. I think the original Aronomink was another Ross attempt of pushing the envelope, its unfortunate they chose redesign as oppose to restoration. Hollywood was a rival no doubt. The original Flynn version of Shinnecock was very boldly bunkered too. Another one designed to rival PV is Brook Hollow in Dallas designed by Tilly with Cameron Buxton having a creative influence. Buxton was an original founder of PV and is mentioned prominently with Crump in the Rice article.

I'm surprised no one has commented about who Rice perceives as the designer of PVGC; he clearly believes it is Colt.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Thankfully, Tillinghast was there and documented it in real time so we don't have to guess.

[Tom MacWood]

Tilly did document events real time and he also gave credit to Colt. It was after Crump's death that he changed the story.

[DMoriarty]

I'm surprised no one has commented about who Rice perceives as the designer of PVGC; he clearly believes it is Colt.

I noticed that too, but I am not surprised. I imagine people are too head shy to even come near the issue, and for good reason.  

It sounds like Rice was with Crump (and Cameron Buxton) when he saw Pine Valley, and judging from the quote his information about the course seems to have come from Crump.

Incredible how, almost 95 years later, Mike Cirba knows more about these things than Grantland Rice and perhaps George Crump himself.

[Tim_Cronin]

Love this line: "If you can beat par at Pine Valley, you can beat Man and Nature working together." Which is what golf architecture should always be about!

[Tom MacWood]

American Golfer 12/1914 American Golfer "Hazard" (AWT)

"Much has been written concerning this marvelous course, discovered by Mr. George A. Crump and designed by that celebrated golf architect, Mr. HS Colt, but for the most part...."

[Joe Bausch]

American Golfer 12/1914 American Golfer "Hazard" (AWT)

"Much has been written concerning this marvelous course, discovered by Mr. George A. Crump and designed by that celebrated golf architect, Mr. HS Colt, but for the most part...."

Tom, what do you make of those articles I unearthed, penned by Tilly, that talk about holes being in place at PV, before Colt apparently arrived on the scene?  Are those ship records incomplete and did Colt make an even earlier visit?  Or did somehow a topographic map get sent to Colt and he was designing from afar?  Or am I misremembering things, like Andy Pettitte?

[Tom MacWood]

Tilly began writing about PV in January 1913. That Spring they began clearing land for the first six or seven holes. Some of the descriptions of those those holes match what was eventually built, others do not. In an April letter sent to prospective members, Crump explained the plan was to have the original eighteen investors each design a golf hole.  I think they realized early on that was not a good plan, and they needed help, which is why Colt was brought in in May. If there were a few good holes designed prior to his arrival I'm sure Colt incorporated them, but I think by in large he improved upon what they had and added a great deal of his own, which is why until the day he died Colt considered PV his design and most contemporaneous accounts give him credit. And I think it is illustrative that after Crump died, and they needed help in finishing the course, they turned again to Colt, and Alison was dispatched.

[Mike Cirba]

Colt was hired, but after a number of holes were designed and a general routing created by Crump and his Committee.   

Afterwards, Crump followed Colt's plans in only a general way, and even Tillinghast was involved in the final resulting holes, the internals of which were created and changed and built by Crump over several years through his death.

For anyone actually interested in facts instead of agenda-driven supposition, here is Tillinghast's reporting of what took place prior to Colt's visit in 1913.

[Mike Cirba]

A bit more showing some of the course evolution post-Colt;

[Tom MacWood]

Colt was hired, but after a number of holes were designed and a general routing created by Crump and his Committee.  

Afterwards, Crump followed Colt's plans in only a general way, and even Tillinghast was involved in the final resulting holes, the internals of which were created and changed and built by Crump over several years through his death.

For anyone actually interested in facts instead of agenda-driven supposition, here is Tillinghast's reporting of what took place prior to Colt's visit in 1913.

Mike
At the time Colt was hired there were six or seven holes in their embryonic stage (read the March 23 article). The description of the first two holes pretty much match the holes as built, Colt moved the third green, changed it from a long par-3 to medium lenght par-3, and threw out the planned Alpinization concept. Colt moved the forth green, which resulted a new 5th hole. The original 6th hole and 7th hole concepts were rejected. Like I said there were a couple of good holes designed prior to his arrival that were incorporated into his routing, but by in large the routing and hole concepts are Colt's, which is why until the day he died he considered PV his design and most contemporaneous accounts gave him credit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike the "routing wasn't completed until 1918 and beyond so how can you maintain that a "general" routing existed in or around 1913 ?

As to AWT's account, what you posted isn't his direct account, but a newspaper account, and you've even indicated that newspaper accounts are often wrong.

Would you also tell us what "agenda" you're referring to when categorizing Tom and David's posts.

[Ryan Farrow]

Here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Round and Round and round.......

[Mike Cirba]

Mike the "routing wasn't completed until 1918 and beyond so how can you maintain that a "general" routing existed in or around 1913 ?

As to AWT's account, what you posted isn't his direct account, but a newspaper account, and you've even indicated that newspaper accounts are often wrong.

Patrick,

If you truly have an interest in these historical discussions other than attempting to bait TePaul back to GCA, you really should have to do a modicum of research or even basic reading yourself.   If you did, you wouldn't ask such questions.

There were multiple early routings, including the one suggested by Colt.   Yes, they all changed between 1913 and 1918, including Colt's and in some very significant ways.   If I get the chance, I may post one or two tonight for reference.

Also, the articles I posted were written directly by AW Tillinghast.    He is not being quoted, but instead writing the articles himself.


Ryan,

Good one.   Rest assured I have no intention to continue beyond merely providing the historical artifacts here for others so they can make their own determinations.   I've wasted enough of my time with these guys.

[Rick Sides]

MCirba,
Can you post any early routing plans of Pine Valley you have?  I would love to see them

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