[Slag_Bandoon]

I'm planning a trip to Scotland, hopefully in May, and would like to see more than the links courses.  I have heard folks say "Don't waste your time on anything but the links"  but I'm compelled to see what moorland, heathland, parkland and mountain terrain courses are like while I'm there.  I've read Robert Price's book "Scotlands Golf Courses" (amongst a multitude of other course suggestion publications), and me being somewhat of a nature boy I'm interested in the land forms almost as much as the architecture.  

Lanark intrigues. Kirkintilloch draws me. The pictures I've seen here of Painswick look interesting.  Strathpeffer sounds quirky and scenic.  Sconser is pure mystery on Skye. I've got the must sees of Scottish Links golf memorized.  What are some unmissable other styled courses that should be seen and played for wonderment and education?  

[Rich_Goodale]

Young Norbert

As ususal you have wisdom beyond your ears.

There are some great golfing experiences in inland Scotland.  Ones I would recommend just off the top of my head are:

Auchterader
Banchory
Bruntsfield
Canmore
Downfield
Hamilton
Kingussie
Kirriemuir
Muckhart
Pitlochry
Pitreavie
Prestonfield
Stirling
Strathpeffer
Thornton

These I have played.  All, with the possible exception of Brunstfield, are reasonably priced.  Of those I have not played, Lanark, Glenbervie, Killermont, Newmachar and Renfrew are meant to be good tests.  There are also the good but pricey twosomes at Blairgowrie (Rosemount and Landsdowne) and Gleneagles (Kings and Queens).

The island courses are something completely different and would make Ran think that Brora was Shadow Creek.  Ther are also some shoreline courses which are not technically links which are great fun to play, e.g. Aberdour, Burntisland and Durness.

So much golf, so little time....

PLEASE, keep me informed...

[Nick (Guest)]

I have played Sconser on Skye, it had an 'honesty box' for green fees in the small clubhouse as nobody was there. If you happen to be on Skye then it is fun with great views. I would'nt make a big detour to play it, it is so remote.  Boat of Garten is a lovely inland course near Aviemore. Heather and silver birches line most holes. Ladybank near St Andrews is also a fine inland course. Enjoy.

[Slag_Bandoon]

Rich, you must be rich in memories.  Thank you kindly.  Printed and will research each.  

 Has anybody played Elgin?

 Nick, thanks for the input. You're the only person to ever reply to a plea about Sconser o' the edge of the world. Have you played Traigh Links or Gourock?  
 I'm not shunning links, as they are HEAVY on my list, just want to get all the flavours of Scotland.

[Neal_Meagher]

A fine little inland gem to consider would have to be Boat of Garten, in the Highlands just south of Grantown-on-Spey.  Mr. Doak has some words on it in his Confidential Guide.  A spunky little thing that meanders up and down some gentle rises it features some finicky little moguls scattered about, the remnant of some ancient glacial movements I would guess.  But I could be wrong about that.

A sporting little par 69, 5,866 from the medal tees.

I'll have to disagree to some extent with the esteemed Mr. Goodale in recommending Pitlochry.  It does have some redeeming qualities, yet it is quite charitably one of the hilliest creations I have yet seen.  And probably because it followed a day of driving from and playing at Auchterarder, it served as a perfect warm-up to the cocktail hour.  However, if it is played on fresh legs in the morning, the long views up into the highlands are not to be beat.  And if staying in the area, do not miss the Knokkendarrach House, a short stroll up the hill from Pitlochry's town center and featuring clean interesting decor and a fabulous in-house restaurant which serves breakfast and dinner.

[abiggadike]

While I have spent some time in Scotland the past few summers, it occurs to me that I have only played links courses. (I don't make the itinerary, just happily tee it up each day with my father)

How would you compare the inland courses over there to typical golf in the U.S.? (I know that's pretty broad, but by that I mean an air game on soft ground conditions)  Is it very similar, or does it retain some of the play characteristics of links courses?

It seems this question should be directed towards Rich_Goodale, but anyone with experience could answer....

[Brian Phillips]

Slag,

Let me know when you are travelling over and I will organise a tee time for you at Meldrum House in Aberdeen designed by my good friend Graeme Webster.  It is in really good condtion and some of the holes are really good.  The course has a slightly american feel to it.

If you give me a enough notice I will also sort out that you play with Graeme and me at the same time if you want.  Graeme will also be able to get you on Newmacher as he built the course for Dave Thomas.

I can confirm that Newmacher is a test, and although I don't really like his bunkering the course has some good holes.  I would also recommend Downfield in Dundee and Blairgowrie.  I find Downfield a bit of slog but everyone seems to really rate it.  I played Landsdowne and again it is a Dave Thomas and Aliss course.  I would recommend that you play the Rosemount course if you get on and if you manage the time have a knock on the 'wee' course.

Send me a n e-mail and I will sort out things for you anywhere in the Aberdeen area.  If you do say yes to the Meldrum House course that Graeme designed, I can guarantee you will be treated well.

Cheers Brian

[Paul_Turner]

Rich

Why is Ladybank at the top for you?  I've only seen it on TV and it didn't look special.  (Gleneagles Kings looks much better).

Boat of Garten would get my vote too.

[Rich_Goodale]

Paul

It doesn't surprise me that Ladybank doesn't show up well on the telly.  The course is very flat and the green complexes are, in fact, "subtles."  Nevertheless, the course cannot be played without recourse to strategy, starting from the initial tee shot which must deal with a diagonal heather covered ridge which bisects the fairway.  The course's strength is it's medium length par 4's.  Each offers rewards for the bold line or bold club, but allows a lay up (with a commensurately more difficult approach).  The course is tight but not claustrophobic.  The conditioning is usually top notch (good heathland turf and true and moderately fast greens).

Overall, nowhere as beautiful as Gleneagles Kings (which I also like a lot) but a slightly better test of golf.

[Greg Ramsay]

Hello there Norbert, I have played at Elgin, in an Open Amateur Foursomes Ch’Ship last year.  It is a good golf course but has 7 or 8 pretty uninteresting holes, the most charming are through a silver birch forest, 2, 3, 4 & 5 if i recall correctly.  I hate to say though that I would return to that boring adage of sticking to links golf courses when in Scotland- as nice as Elgin and many other inlanders are, and yes they are great examples of understated, elegant golf courses in appealing settings, Scotland comes to life by the sea.  I don’t think there are any real heathland courses remaining in inland Scotland, perhaps Scotscraig, and Ladybank.  Gleneagles is certainly not anymore, and whilst its Kings and Queens courses are among the finest inland courses in Britain, I personally would prefer to play some of the lesser coastal courses such as Fraserburgh (I cannot rave enough about this course), Tain, Royal Tarlair, Machrie, Spey Bay (a real little gem) and Moray at Lossiemouth.  Peterhead is an interesting mix of heathland and linksland.

1 inland course I would recommend for pure charm if you are in Edinburgh is called Innerleithen, about 40mins south of the city in the borders.  Perched along a river, at the bottom of a valley, the towering mountains all around the course will leave anyone gobsmacked- and the drive there is wonderful as well.  The sheep roaming all over the course just add to the feel of the place.  You could even do a loop down there including Berwick-on-Tweed and the new Roxburgh, or Cardrona at Traquair near Innerleithen.

Pitlohry is nice, but not a great golf course, again it is a charming course on the side of a hill in one of the prettiest parts of the Highlands.  There is a course on the way to Ballater which looked really nice as I drove by, they are all so understated with fairways merging into greens as naturally as the best links golf courses.  I would definitely recommend Boat of Garten.

I hope this helps!

Greg Ramsay
www.barnbougledunes.com

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I had the good fortune to play Ladybank one evening after 36 holes at Gullane. I found the greens to be amoung the best I found anywhere in Scotland and the routing to be delightful. I would recomend it to anyone wanting to step beyond the so called major courses in the area.

[Slag_Bandoon]

Remember how Coore and Crenshaw walked Sand Hills and found a hundred or so holes and then had to decide which ones to use.  That's where I'm at. I figured out that if I played all the courses I wanted to I'd have to take a three year hiatus. So, to cover another thread here, going on concurrently,  ROUTING is of paramount importance.  I'm hoping to get 16 days of travel time.  Along with my wishes of golfing every day, is my spouse, a non-golfer, who is threatening to rent a 40 foot container to ship back souvenirs and antiques. Yikes!  I've created a monster.  Compromises and sacrifices will have to be made - hope bringing her along has its compensations.  

   Rich, How's this sound for a form letter for weedling onto the more selective clubs?  (diplomatically presented- "...request the honor of playing your esteemed and internationally famous venue to further its reputation as God's favorite course." humbly, with cap in hand,  Lord Norbert of Tri-Mountain Muni Golfers and Parolees Club.

[Dan King]

I feel a little out of place giving advice to a GCA Full Member, who is well on his way to God status, while I'm a lowly Junior member, barely out of the newby stage. Which will come first, graduating college or godhood?

I've played a few of the inland courses mentioned in my trips to Scotland. I've played Blairgowerie, Ladybank, Balbirnie, Braid's Hill. etc... Fine courses, but not worth a trip across the ocean. I just think they have too much in common with many U.S. courses and trips to Scotland should be concentrated around links golf. I'd play inland golf in the afternoon after a morning round or two at a links course, but wouldn't waste a full day on inland courses.

Then again, maybe I've been missing the boat. One of the attractions of going to Scotland and golfing is meeting and getting to know natives. Maybe that is more likely on non-links courses. Getting away from the tourists. I say forget my advice and report back about how much fun you have.  And don't forget while in East Lothian to hoist a pint of Belhaven's Best, brewed in Dunbar (I'm sure you'll dig this, hometown of John Muir.)

"You have to play golf in Scotland. What else is there to do there? Wear a skirt?"
  --George Low

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am with you Dan, there are plenty of good links courses that are not filled with americano's to meet locals on too. you have way to much world class golf to play in 16 days to get down to the courses we are chatting about. i played ladybank just because there was light left and i like the look of it while having a pint. I would not pass on a rounded at gullane 1 or dunbar or berwick for it though.

[Brian Phillips]

John and Dan,

i agree with you both that there is a lot of Links golf to be played in that period of days.  However It is still important for someone studying GCA that they do visit the inland courses and see how the designs were done.  

A person who cna say that they have visited courses like Downfield and Blairgowrie as well as the links courses such as Scotscraig, Elie etc will receive more respect from the Scots than someone who just visits the 'tourist' courses...

[Bob_Huntley]

I don't think I would recommend taking a long drive to play Spean Bridge Golf Club near Fort William but it's a short, what we might call, an Executive Course in the States.

A nine holer starting and finishing with a par three. The club was formed in the 1950's and the local members designed and built the original course. It is my understanding that all the maintenance and development is still carried out by members to this day.

What makes it special? Views of the surounding mountains and Ben Nevis. Absolute solitude, a couple of sheep dogs running around, an honour box in which to deposit your green fee and a parkland feeling with autumnal hues that makes you thimk of Brigadoon. I loved the place but cannot remember a single architectual feature of merit.

[mps01]

Unless you plan to play more than 20 rounds in Scotland, you ARE wasting time on the inland courses.  

Loch Lomond and Gleneagles Kings are great courses & if you have time you should play them.  Otherwise, I wouldn't cross town (much less an ocean) to play an inland course in Scotland.  

Think about it!  St Andrews, Muirfield, Turnberry, Cruden Bay, Royal Dornoch, North Berwick & Machrihanish should all be played twice & then you MUST play Kingsbarns, Royal Troon, Prestwick, Carnoustie, Western Gailes & Gullane #1 - that's 20 rounds & we still haven't seen Brora, Royal Aberdeen, Montrose, Lundin, Elie, Nairn, Crail...  Do you really have time for Lanark?

Seriously, you shouldn't try to see it all in one trip.  Pick a base area to play as much as possible for 3-4 days then move to the next base.  If this is a once-in-a-lifetime deal (even if you think it is, it won't be!), St Andrews HAS to be one base. You should play SA Old/New, Kingsbarns, Carnoustie, Lundin & Elie before you even think about Ladybank.  Then,
   -  if you've only got a few days left, I would move to Turnberry / Troon / Prestwick / WG.  
   -  if you have more than a few days, drive up to Cruden Bay & play it 2 or 3 times before driving over to Royal Dornoch.

[THuckaby2]

Sage advice for most people - right on, concur.

But from what I've learned in this group, Slag isn't "most people".  If he went to the Louvre, I doubt he'd seek out the Mona Lisa...

Thus his interest in inland courses in Scotland is no surprise.

Right, Slag?

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

It sure is nice to access older threads with the new Yabba Dabba Do Program.  It takes some of the pressure off.  
  
 Thanks to all for ideas, offers and advice both here and through email.  My desires are to see Scotland -- as much of it as possible without being harried and touristy.  I want to climb at least one mountain - preferably Ben Nevis but many to choose from and weather dictates strongly my fate.  Most of my preconceived golf list is seaside links but I'd really like to see all styles.

  One more direct question --  Is there a great Pitch and Putt course that is a must see that a person should fit in to the rota?  
 
  Rich G, are you a Clynelish fan?   I do want to do a lot of single malt esploorin'.  Any suggestions besides not driving on the right side?  

[Rich_Goodale]

Slag

There are pitch and putt courses at Turnberry, Gleneagles and on the grounds of the Dornoch Hotel (all old Railway Hotels).  None would win any stars for architecture or conditioning, but they all have great venues!  There is also a short par-3 course at one of my old home venues, Brucefields in Stirling.  Again, not great golf, but a very pretty setting.

Clyneleish is not my favorite malt, but it does have the benefit of being in Brora.  Some other slamming and dramming combinations I would recommend are:

Tain/Glenmorangie
Lossiemouth/Macallan
Pitlochry/Edradour
Machrie/the entire Islay range
Machrahanish/Springbank

Slainte

[Paul Richards]

Not sure if it's what you would describe as inland
Scotland, but to me Formby Ladies course was a lot of fun.
In fact, it's par 3 on the front nine is one of the best short
three pars in all of Scotland!

[Slag Bandoon]

 In web grazing, I have happened across many Golf Pass offers. They sound like good deals but most are regional and limited, that I've seen.  Has anybody used these to your liking?  Is there one that encompasses all of Scotland?  I can't imagine the biggies even wanting to be involved in 'discount' ventures but just wondering . . .I don't suppose they'll  knock off 10 pounds stirling for bringing two cans of food for the homeless, eh?

[Ken Adamson]

Just a quick note from a Scottish guest to the site - intersting range of comments.  From my perspective the range of inland courses in Scotland and their age merit some attention from US visitors (although clearly most will wish to 'major' on the Scottish links).

Having played many of the inland courses previously mentioned, my favourites would probably be Ladybank, Downfield and Gleneagles (both the Kings and Queens - although the latter is short by modern standards).  Blairgowrie also has a good reputation.  All these courses are of excellent standard and display many interesting features.

[Stan Dodd]

Two suggestions from a newbie with 50+ Scottish rounds.  Two very plesant inland courses I cna reccomend are Kerriemuir and Alyth, tow Braid designs each with a couple of excellant holes both with a delightful walk.  Could make a nice place to stretch the legs between Carnoustie and Blairgowrie.  
A links course I have yet to see mentioned is Panmure? For the single malt fans reactions to Oban

[Paul Turner]

I played Alyth almost 20 years ago.  All I remember is that I really liked it and that I preferred it to the more highly regarded courses at Crieff, Edzell and Foress.

Rich

That washboard effect is weird; I've seen it on a few courses and you're guaranteed some challenging stances!  I think the most famous course that has it, is Alwoodley on a couple of the early holes (4&5?).

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